Al-a-cartism

Son Goku

JimiTime wrote:

No, there is never any woman with more than 1 husband. Biblically, woman is the glory of man. Man is lord over woman. As bitter a pill this is to swallow for alot of women, this is the biblical stance.

:rolleyes: Why am I not surprised? Of course a woman couldn't have two husbands. It's grand for a lad like, but a woman!
Woman is the glory of man?
Choo, choo!, here comes the misogynist train, last stop you.

JimiTime

Son Goku wrote:

:rolleyes: Why am I not surprised? Of course a woman couldn't have two husbands. It's grand for a lad like, but a woman!
Woman is the glory of man?
Choo, choo!, here comes the misogynist train, last stop you.

Just being honest about what I've found. I could just revert to, well it may mean this that or the other. But in fairness, it says what it says, however unpopular or unacceptable it is in modern views. I find alot of skirting around these types of things nowadays. A mentality that kind of says 'oh, we can't say that or we'll turn people off'. At the end of the day though, it says what it says, its there to be accepted or rejected.
Speaking of misogyny though:) Here's one I wonder if you've heard.

Adam is in Eden and asks God, 'I'd love a partner to share all this wonderful splendour you've provided'. god replies, ' No bother, I'll provide a being that is so beautiful, It'll make all this look like weeds. It'll know what you want before even you do. It'll be the most fantastic being, just for you.' Adam replies. 'great, is there a catch?'. God says, 'well it'll cost you your left arm, right leg and one of your eyes'. 'Oh' Adam ponders. 'What do I get for a rib'. And the rest is history:D

Of course if your misogynist remark is a serious one, then the above reply is probably out of place.

Zombrex

Yes but what exactly makes you go "wow, that is such a good idea, I'll will follow that?"

I mean, do you agree that women are under men (sure there is a joke in there some where) in the natural order of things. As an atheists I'm constantly being told by Christians to "just read the Bible" as if I'm supposed to read all this and go "wow, that is so true" and be converted. What actually happens is the exact opposite, I read the Bible and go "that is utter nonsense, who wrote this crap?"

One cannot help that this was all written by men with serious issues towards women

JimiTime

^ I suppose, I've been raised by christian parents. They weren't 'church on sunday, holy pictures and crucifix' christians. i would see them as genuinely descent people with christian principles and a true love for god. We studied the bible but were never discouraged from questioning the norm, in fact we were encouraged. They would invite any religious folk who knocked on the door in for a chat, Mormons, J.W's, local priest, whoever. They loved God, and they led by example. While I learned my behaviour from them, from about the age of 16 I ignored the spiritual side a bit. Eventually I just felt lacking, and had a bit of a road to damascus while I was travelling for a year when I was about 21. I never stopped believing really, I just ignored my concience for a few years. So basically what I'm trying to say, is that my Christianity is inherited from my Christian parents, not blindly inherited, but inherited nonetheless, and i thank God that I have inherited it. Its through my parents example I got to know christ, and when I was interested enough, I learned about this person that had guided them in their life. So I've never got a 'wow, I get it now' moment. I always had faith, so always operated under the fact that God loves us. Operate with any other line of thought, and you will be like the non believers christs day, such as the people who were flabergasted at him asking them to 'eat my body and drink my blood'. Personally i would compare that they with this, inasmuch as, in them days even the apostles didn't get some of what he said, but they knew who he was, and knew his love. But some things he said to those that didn't know him, would have sounded criminal, like the example above. I could imagine the Jews reasoning, 'he said this that or the other, he couldn't be the messiah'. And indeed, they were in the majority, because they were educated men who made points that seemed to make sense. Anyway I'm rambling off on a complete tangent so I'll stop now.

Zombrex

JimiTime wrote:

I always had faith, so always operated under the fact that God loves us.

Well not to try and crush your faith or anything, but have you considered that you believe that simply because your parents taught you that. If your parents were Hindu do you think you would now be a Hindu?

We [humans] are biologically predisposed to accepting what are parents tell us as children, even if it isn't true. This is because in the "wild" we needed to accept what we were being taught (hunting, safety) quickly without much fuss. We will continue to hold on to these ideas even if faced with contradictary evidence or reason. Not doing so makes us feel bad, even if we don't understand why. Even as adults you will often find people who feel strong emotions of guilt or concern if they discover something their parents told them or believes is actually incorrect, even if what they believe isn't that important (I once saw a girl in college start crying when she found out that her mother had taught her how to use a cooker incorrectly)

The term "world turned upside down" is commonly used to describe this, the realisation that not everything we were taught by our parents is true.

Ultimately the point of my original question was which comes first, your acceptance of the religion your parents taught you, or your rational deduction that our religion makes sense. Do you read that women come below men and go "Yes I accept that because it make sense" or do you read it and say "Yes I accept that because my religion tells me it is true, and I accept my religion"

rockbeer

JimiTime wrote:

my Christianity is inherited from my Christian parents

This is by far the most relevant statement in your rambling post. The fact that your parents were believing christians is probably the only thing that has made you one. And similarly you have inhereted their tolerance and liberalism. I'm not saying that's bad, just inevitable - it's the basic way that all religions propogate. And sadly it's also the way all religious divisions propogate.

However none of that makes it true. If you had been born of muslim parents you would most likely subscribe to the muslim faith and believe that to be true with equal conviction.

It's all down to chance in the end.

It also sounds like your religious education was highly selective if it was distilled down to a message as simple as 'God loves us'. The point of this thread is that you have to be highly selective in the way you interpret scripture to boil it down to such a simplistic statement. The bible is full of people who god doesn't, in fact, love. In fact, he dislikes many people so much that he routinely orders them to be wiped off the face of the earth. Your god didn't used to love everyone, only the jews. Even Jesus recognized this. It was Paul's idea to try to involve the gentiles, presumably recognizing that his new faith would collapse on itself if membership was restricted to jews.

The entire history of your faith is one of selective interpretation.

JimiTime

Wicknight wrote:

Well not to try and crush your faith or anything, but have you considered that you believe that simply because your parents taught you that. If your parents were Hindu do you think you would now be a Hindu?

Its very likely, yes.

We [humans] are biologically predisposed to accepting what are parents tell us as children, even if it isn't true. This is because in the "wild" we needed to accept what we were being taught (hunting, safety) quickly without much fuss. We will continue to hold on to these ideas even if faced with contradictary evidence or reason. Not doing so makes us feel bad, even if we don't understand why. Even as adults you will often find people who feel strong emotions of guilt or concern if they discover something their parents told them or believes is actually incorrect, even if what they believe isn't that important (I once saw a girl in college start crying when she found out that her mother had taught her how to use a cooker incorrectly)

The term "world turned upside down" is commonly used to describe this, the realisation that not everything we were taught by our parents is true.

I definately see your point. However, there are many thing my parents thought me biblically that I have questioned and have actually ended up showing them. They constantly update with new knowledge, if its there to be seen. Also your arguement flounders when it comes to conversion. My parents were raised in old catholic Ireland, by loving parents. Yet they rejected catholocism, something their parents weren't delighted about. But they didn't throw the baby out with the bathwater, and continued to build their spiritual health with Christ. There are many that have much more extreme conversions, I.E. leaving Christianity completely, to be another religion or atheist etc. There are many that convert to Christianity also, but now I'm just stating the obvious.

[/QUOTE]
Ultimately the point of my original question was which comes first, your acceptance of the religion your parents taught you, or your rational deduction that our religion makes sense. Do you read that women come below men and go "Yes I accept that because it make sense" or do you read it and say "Yes I accept that because my religion tells me it is true, and I accept my religion" [/QUOTE]

Obviously, my parents are my moral, spiritual and physical guardians as a child, so in the beginning its certainly obedience. However, as i mentioned earlier, i was encouraged to question. And my final decision to try follow christ definately had influence from my upbringing. Again, i follow Christ, a person. Not a religion. I accept what Christ says as i accept him as my teacher. He has picked up where my parents left off.

Zombrex

JimiTime wrote:

I definately see your point. However, there are many thing my parents thought me biblically that I have questioned and have actually ended up showing them. They constantly update with new knowledge, if its there to be seen.

Well I mean its not a specific rule. Its not like your parents say "The 11a bus comes at 5.30" and you will accept this even if the bus driver says it comes at 5.15. But i imagine most people will still double check the bus driver, and feel a little uncomfortable about the whole thing.

JimiTime wrote:

Also your arguement flounders when it comes to conversion. My parents were raised in old catholic Ireland, by loving parents. Yet they rejected catholocism, something their parents weren't delighted about. But they didn't throw the baby out with the bathwater, and continued to build their spiritual health with Christ.

I'm not saying that a person cannot reject their parents religion (or reject what they are taught by their parents). I'm simply pointing that we are biological predisposed not to. I imagine that on some level your parents felt bad about rejecting Catholism.

In general the vast majority of people continue the religion of their parents, no matter what their religion is. This would strongly suggest that there is something more going on here than people rationally deciding that a particular religion suits them.

JimiTime wrote:

I accept what Christ says as i accept him as my teacher.

I get that, but the question is why do you do this?

Also, if, as you say, Jesus has replaced the role your parents held, is it possible that the same instinctive process where we accept what are parents say has been simply shifted to your religion, in a similar way that a person may pick a partner who acts as a parental figure to them.

JimiTime

rockbeer wrote:

This is by far the most relevant statement in your rambling post. The fact that your parents were believing christians is probably the only thing that has made you one. And similarly you have inhereted their tolerance and liberalism. I'm not saying that's bad, just inevitable - it's the basic way that all religions propogate. And sadly it's also the way all religious divisions propogate.

'Only' reason, no, definately not. Instigating factor, absolutely, yes.

However none of that makes it true. If you had been born of muslim parents you would most likely subscribe to the muslim faith and believe that to be true with equal conviction.

It doesn't make it untrue though. And yes you are most likely correct, if i had been borne to muslim parents, I'd probably be a muslim now as my life would have had a dfferent path.

It's all down to chance in the end.

I don't think I can deny that. I feel fortunate to have been raised in Christianity, unlike those who find it from non-believing or other religious backrounds. I don't take it for granted though.

It also sounds like your religious education was highly selective if it was distilled down to a message as simple as 'God loves us'. The point of this thread is that you have to be highly selective in the way you interpret scripture to boil it down to such a simplistic statement. The bible is full of people who god doesn't, in fact, love. In fact, he dislikes many people so much that he routinely orders them to be wiped off the face of the earth. Your god didn't used to love everyone, only the jews. Even Jesus recognized this.

Indeed, those who did not know God were judged swiftly. However, God gave his son as a sacrifice for all, not just the Jews. Those who have been judged in previous times will be resurrected in final judgement, so even when exacting judgement back then, he knew that one day man would be redeemed through his sons sacrifice. That is why he refers to the dead as sleeping.

The entire history of your faith is one of selective interpretation.

The entire history of 'my' faith is 26 years.

JimiTime

Wicknight wrote:

I get that, but the question is why do you do this?

Also, if, as you say, Jesus has replaced the role your parents held, is it possible that the same instinctive process where we accept what are parents say has been simply shifted to your religion, in a similar way that a person may pick a partner who acts as a parental figure to them.

I believe christ is the messiah prophesised in the hebrew scriptures. I believe his example was a marvel. i believe he showed love, compassion and honesty and was great example to follow. He brings hope. To go deeper, I believe there has to be a creator (not getting into that though:) )So its just a matter of finding who that creator is. I found YHWH to be the living God, and thus set about educating myself about him.

Zombrex

JimiTime wrote:

I believe christ is the messiah prophesised in the hebrew scriptures. I believe his example was a marvel. i believe he showed love, compassion and honesty and was great example to follow. He brings hope. To go deeper, I believe there has to be a creator (not getting into that though:) )So its just a matter of finding who that creator is. I found YHWH to be the living God, and thus set about educating myself about him.

Still not quite following ... why do you believe all this?

Did you read about it and think "That makes sense", or were you initially taught this and then as you got older realised that you agreed with it all.

I suppose a better way of asking the question is Do you remember any time before which you didn't believe or were not aware of God? and if so do you remember what changed. Do you remember when you consciously believed in God and Jesus and the Bible?

rockbeer

JimiTime wrote:

It doesn't make it untrue though.

Not by itself. However, it provides a rational and satisfactory explanation for the continued survival of your manifestly false religion. Mathematically speaking, the probability of your religion being true is infinitely small. It's less likely than the spontaneous appearance of the human eye, fully formed and functioning, by complete chance. Chance clearly isn't a rational and satisfactory explanation for the existence of the human eye, and neither is god.

JimiTime wrote:

And yes you are most likely correct, if i had been borne to muslim parents, I'd probably be a muslim now as my life would have had a dfferent path.

This sort of response always makes me laugh. How lucky for you to be born into the 'right' religion

JimiTime wrote:

Indeed, those who did not know God were judged swiftly.

Half the time, as far as I can see, he didn't even give them the chance to 'know' him. Then there was all the acceptance of people offering up of virgins for rape and abuse. Not to mention the acceptance of blood sacrifices, justification of slavery etc. etc... Is that the sort of behaviour you would expect from a god of tolerance and love? Or does it sound more like the sort of god the superstitious and violent bronze-age writers of the old testament might have invented??

Use your brain now...

JimiTime wrote:

However, God gave his son as a sacrifice for all, not just the Jews.

That is a scripturally contentious statement. AFAIK there's little, even in the shaky historical evidence that's available, to suggest that in his own lifetime Jesus was interested in anybody but the jews.

JimiTime wrote:

Those who have been judged in previous times will be resurrected in final judgement, so even when exacting judgement back then, he knew that one day man would be redeemed through his sons sacrifice.

Again, is that what you would expect of a god of tolerance and love? You know, if somebody invented a new religion and filled it with that kind of spurious argument-in-reverse, you'd be right to laugh it out of town. It's almost painful watching christians struggle to reconcile the vindictive and violent monster god of the old testament with the loving god they want (us) to believe in.

It just doesn't work.

JimiTime wrote:

The entire history of 'my' faith is 26 years.

So that's 26 years of selective interpretation for you then... Are you saying you've studied scripture in detail and reached all your own conclusions unaided? With no influence from any of your teachers? And with full and complete knowledge of all the other religions that might be 'the truth' instead of yours (since you seem to need to believe in a creator, for whatever reason)?

PDN

rockbeer wrote:

That is a scripturally contentious statement. AFAIK there's little, even in the shaky historical evidence that's available, to suggest that in his own lifetime Jesus was interested in anybody but the jews.

Most people would think that training the disciples for 3 years in order to send them to "make disciples of all nations" (Greek: panta ta ethne - all the ethnic groups) would show more than a passing interest in the Gentiles.

JimiTime

Wicknight wrote:

Still not quite following ... why do you believe all this?

Did you read about it and think "That makes sense", or were you initially taught this and then as you got older realised that you agreed with it all.

I suppose a better way of asking the question is Do you remember any time before which you didn't believe or were not aware of God? and if so do you remember what changed. Do you remember when you consciously believed in God and Jesus and the Bible?

I can safely say, I don't remember a time when I absolutely didn't believe, but i do remember when i conciously really weighed things up and started soul searching. That was when I was in Australia 5 years ago. The trigger was simply, I was drinking alot, being promoiscuous and pretty selfish. One day i just broke down, and thought, what the hell am I doing. I picked up a bible and found enlightenment, hope and salvation in the following months. I am one of those people (that I'm sure frustrate the hell out of you), that even at my spiritual low, I could not accept that there isn't a God/Creator, the only doubt would be am I on the right path. I'd have a brief flirtation with islam and budddhism, then see that yes I am on the right path. Having now accepted that God is our creator, and Jesus his Son and our King, my current struggle, is seperating the dogma from the truth.

JimiTime

rockbeer wrote:

Not by itself. However, it provides a rational and satisfactory explanation for the continued survival of your manifestly false religion. Mathematically speaking, the probability of your religion being true is infinitely small. It's less likely than the spontaneous appearance of the human eye, fully formed and functioning, by complete chance. Chance clearly isn't a rational and satisfactory explanation for the existence of the human eye, and neither is god.

Well if its ok with you, I'll take my chances.

This sort of response always makes me laugh. How lucky for you to be born into the 'right' religion

Indeed, it makes me smile too. I am very happy that I was born into a Christian household.

Half the time, as far as I can see, he didn't even give them the chance to 'know' him. Then there was all the acceptance of people offering up of virgins for rape and abuse. Not to mention the acceptance of blood sacrifices, justification of slavery etc. etc... Is that the sort of behaviour you would expect from a god of tolerance and love? Or does it sound more like the sort of god the superstitious and violent bronze-age writers of the old testament might have invented??

Use your brain now...

Well, judging by your previous comments, what brain do you expect me to use? The irrational one that believes in something thats a mathematical improbability?

That is a scripturally contentious statement. AFAIK there's little, even in the shaky historical evidence that's available, to suggest that in his own lifetime Jesus was interested in anybody but the jews.

i think PDN covered this.

Again, is that what you would expect of a god of tolerance and love? You know, if somebody invented a new religion and filled it with that kind of spurious argument-in-reverse, you'd be right to laugh it out of town. It's almost painful watching christians struggle to reconcile the vindictive and violent monster god of the old testament with the loving god they want (us) to believe in.

It just doesn't work.

It certainly doesn't work to see God as a violent monster, on that we agree. And if its painful to watch as you say, then either close your eyes, or stop talking to them. If you have done your homework and looked into still have not accepted God, then so be it. I can't convince you. i see it differently to you.

So that's 26 years of selective interpretation for you then... Are you saying you've studied scripture in detail and reached all your own conclusions unaided? With no influence from any of your teachers? And with full and complete knowledge of all the other religions that might be 'the truth' instead of yours (since you seem to need to believe in a creator, for whatever reason)?

No not at all. i have been influenced by my parents, my family, my friends, authors of books I've read. I've been influenced by the world around me. I've been influenced by watching the sea and the moon and the sunset. By the natural beauty of this wonderful home we call earth. I have not looked at all religions. I am a jew in heart and my God is YHWH, and my king is Jeus Christ.

rockbeer

JimiTime wrote:

Well if its ok with you, I'll take my chances.

Why do you need my approval for your mistakes?

JimiTime wrote:

Indeed, it makes me smile too. I am very happy that I was born into a Christian household.

And I'm sure your smile doesn't contain even a trace of irony... because you fail to see the point, which is that if you had been born a muslim you would almost certainly consider islam to be the 'right' religion... if you had been born an ancient Egyptian I'm sure you'd be worshipping Osiris with all the fervour you now reserve for the vowel-less one.

The fact that it's all down to chance ought to ring alarm bells for you... the fact that it doesn't says more about your (lack of) ability to reason than about your religion.

JimiTime wrote:

Well, judging by your previous comments, what brain do you expect me to use? The irrational one that believes in something thats a mathematical improbability?

If you could use any of it that would be a start.

JimiTime wrote:

It certainly doesn't work to see God as a violent monster, on that we agree.

Have you actually read the old testament??

JimiTime wrote:

And if its painful to watch as you say, then either close your eyes, or stop talking to them.

Er, sorry to have to point this out, but you are a visitor to the A & A board. You might note that I don't hang out on the christian board... too painful for me I'm afraid.

JimiTime wrote:

No not at all. i have been influenced by my parents, my family, my friends, authors of books I've read. I've been influenced by the world around me. I've been influenced by watching the sea and the moon and the sunset. By the natural beauty of this wonderful home we call earth. I have not looked at all religions. I am a jew in heart and my God is YHWH, and my king is Jeus Christ.

That, I'm afraid, is a total abdication of your human ability to reason and think. You are satisfied that you have found the truth - as passed on to you by your parents - without even having had the initiative or good sense to explore other possible truths. How smug, how complacent and how pathetic.

Zombrex

JimiTime wrote:

I am one of those people (that I'm sure frustrate the hell out of you), that even at my spiritual low, I could not accept that there isn't a God/Creator, the only doubt would be am I on the right path.

Doesn't frustrate me at all, it is in dark times like that that people will turn to religion, and I imagine your experience is very common. People tend to become atheists, or reject their religion, when they are happy and content, not when they are unhappy and miserable.

I suppose I would worry about what I call the "John Travolta" effect, that you managed to turn your life around and now believe you only could have done that because of your religion or faith. But I also understand that because to you the two events (turning your life around, finding religion again) are so entwined I could probably never convince you that they aren't actually connected, at least not how you believe they are.

Your experience highlights one of my issue with religion, that it does become associated for a lot of people, particularly devout followers, with happiness and success. This naturally makes rational debate and argument more difficult, since there is more at stake if one rejects a previously held position. I imagine you genuinely believe, even if only sub-consciously, that to reject elements of your faith as being not true would result in a return to those dark times for you. You need the religion to help you because you do not wish to return to how you once were (why would you), and therefore you are devoted to what ever the religion asks of you.

This is ultimately I feel a dangerous position for any person to be in, put particularly large organized groups of people.

Dades

rockbeer wrote:

How smug, how complacent and how pathetic.

There's a difference between 'smug' and 'content', rockbeer. If anybody is coming across as smug, it's you.
Tone down the vitriol. Remember, you're a guest here, too.

rockbeer

The Atheist wrote:

There's a difference between 'smug' and 'content', rockbeer. If anybody is coming across as smug, it's you.
Tone down the vitriol. Remember, you're a guest here, too.

OK fair enough, apologies if that came across a bit strong. However, I would defend the use of the word smug in this context - I think it's extremely, even dangerously, self-satisfied to maintain that one knows the truth without having taken the trouble to properly examine contradictory views.

Dades

There are of course smug Christians (as there are non-believers), I just don't particularly see JimiTime as one of them. "Smug" for me implies self-righteous to the point of being offensive.

You'll like this quote - "the greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance -- it is the illusion of knowledge".

JimiTime

Wicknight wrote:

I suppose I would worry about what I call the "John Travolta" effect, that you managed to turn your life around and now believe you only could have done that because of your religion or faith. But I also understand that because to you the two events (turning your life around, finding religion again) are so entwined I could probably never convince you that they aren't actually connected, at least not how you believe they are.

TBH, I may have overstated my 'turning' as it were. I did feel a void, feeling I was becoming shallow as a person. My 'breakdown' as I put it was a moment of epipheny, a realising of how far removed from the person I wanted to be, and in many ways thought I was. So I wanted to make the change and find the old me again. And indeed thats what I'm still doing. It was a private moment that was basically shedding some tears for a few minutes then waking up to some home truths. My spirituality was part of the journey inward. I would have made those changes because of what was instilled in me in my upbringing I.E. My family's example of what a good person was. I do believe without God, I would have still strived for this. However, my spiritual health became very important to me, as it had always been a part of my life, I had just ignored it for a couple of years.

Your experience highlights one of my issue with religion, that it does become associated for a lot of people, particularly devout followers, with happiness and success. This naturally makes rational debate and argument more difficult, since there is more at stake if one rejects a previously held position. I imagine you genuinely believe, even if only sub-consciously, that to reject elements of your faith as being not true would result in a return to those dark times for you. You need the religion to help you because you do not wish to return to how you once were (why would you), and therefore you are devoted to what ever the religion asks of you.

I can't deny that if I found something that convinced me that its all rubbish, I would be very hurt, and feel like a complete wally. However, I would still take away the valuable lessons I leared and try my best to live by them. Again, the 'dark times', you describe (again if I overstated them, apologies), I do not want to return to, with or without God. As I said, even if someone convinced me the whole God thing was a fraud, I would still try to live by the 'Love' rule Jesus thought. I'd be very sad at the prospect that loved ones that have died are actually gone forever though.

JimiTime

rockbeer wrote:

Why do you need my approval for your mistakes?

well its obvious i can't think for myself, so I'm seeking approval from such an enlightened being.

And I'm sure your smile doesn't contain even a trace of irony... because you fail to see the point, which is that if you had been born a muslim you would almost certainly consider islam to be the 'right' religion... if you had been born an ancient Egyptian I'm sure you'd be worshipping Osiris with all the fervour you now reserve for the vowel-less one.

You really must think christians or maybe just me are stupid. i do get your point, and accept it. If I was born into another religious group, maybe I'd be facing mecca or whatever. I get it, but it makes no odds to me. I was born to christian parents, and at the age of 22, began to take steps to follow christ myself, obviously heavily influenced by my upbringing. So what.

The fact that it's all down to chance ought to ring alarm bells for you... the fact that it doesn't says more about your (lack of) ability to reason than about your religion.

The fact is, you know little about me so you have little insight into how I think or reason. You obviously have a general view of 'religious types', and I fit in that box for you. If that works for you, fine, but why do you feel the compulsion to basically let me know how much of an idiot I am?

Have you actually read the old testament??

was that a Sean O'Casey play?

Er, sorry to have to point this out, but you are a visitor to the A & A board. You might note that I don't hang out on the christian board... too painful for me I'm afraid.

As are you, but you chose to converse with me, so whats your point?

That, I'm afraid, is a total abdication of your human ability to reason and think. You are satisfied that you have found the truth - as passed on to you by your parents - without even having had the initiative or good sense to explore other possible truths. How smug, how complacent and how pathetic.

Oh dear, I have upset you haven't I.

rockbeer

JimiTime wrote:

You really must think christians or maybe just me are stupid.

No! If I thought you were stupid I wouldn't care so much.

I think, like all humans, you're amazingly intelligent. And I think you infantilize yourselves and waste your greatest gifts, the abilities to think, to reason, and to make conceptual mental connections between different pieces of information, by indulging in fairy tales.

JimiTime wrote:

i do get your point, and accept it. If I was born into another religious group, maybe I'd be facing mecca or whatever. I get it, but it makes no odds to me.

Exactly. You're so wedded to your beliefs that you choose to ignore this strikingly powerful piece of evidence in contradiction to them. As are all religious people. Hence the ability to act in contradiction to the evidence. Hence the ability to do terrible things in the name of faith. Hence the ability to disregard the beliefs of others. Please note I don't accuse you personally of these things - but it is clear that these things all follow from the same starting point, namely the willingness to believe what you are told regardless of the evidence.

JimiTime wrote:

The fact is, you know little about me so you have little insight into how I think or reason.

I'm only going on what you say. You tell me evidence means nothing to you. You tell me mathematical probability means nothing to you. What do you want me to do, congratulate you on your amazing ability to perceive the truth despite having no evidence whatsoever for you opinion? You are self-confessedly an advocate of blind faith over evidence. And yes, I don't think that's very clever but hey, it's your life.

JimiTime wrote:

was that a Sean O'Casey play?

I think so - wasn't it the one where the superstitious primitives gave their daughters away to gangs of sex-crazed men and convinced themselves it was god's will?

JimiTime wrote:

Oh dear, I have upset you haven't I.

Not just you. It's your whole mad delusional belief system - it gets to me every time.

JimiTime

rockbeer wrote:

No! If I thought you were stupid I wouldn't care so much.

So its like, 'How do these, generally smart folk believe this tripe'? Well here's the thing. Using Christs advice, I learn to Love my neighbour. I learn honesty. I feel better and happier for following this guidence. Also, I'm given hope. Hope that there is more to us than this life, though not to the extent that some just basically waste their life waiting on the next, I'm against that line of thinking. I am given great solace in time of bereavement. So all of the above is positive. It doesn't hold me back in life, it enhances it. Now, why would I choose to leave this in favour of putting faith in mankind? A mankind thats greedy, and hungry for power. Who with every advance in technology there are millions waiting to abuse it, (Atomic energy turns to atomic weapons, The wonderful internet turns into a haven for every type of perversion, the list goes on). The earth is panging with distress after being abused by its carers for so long. Though advances in science, agriculture etc are speeding along, famine and disease is still rife. Even when cures etc are found, it comes at a price. A price that most will not afford. Life is cheap to mankind as a whole. Africa dies while medicine that could likely save millions goes by its expiry and is destroyed. So call it an idiotic fairytale if you will, but from my perspective just knowing that God is, makes life better.

I think, like all humans, you're amazingly intelligent. And I think you infantilize yourselves and waste your greatest gifts, the abilities to think, to reason, and to make conceptual mental connections between different pieces of information, by indulging in fairy tales.

Thats just it though. I can't understand how anyone could think we weren't created. The very notion that we are a cosmic accident is something I trully cannot fathom. Not even slightly.

I'm only going on what you say. You tell me evidence means nothing to you. You tell me mathematical probability means nothing to you. What do you want me to do, congratulate you on your amazing ability to perceive the truth despite having no evidence whatsoever for you opinion? You are self-confessedly an advocate of blind faith over evidence. And yes, I don't think that's very clever but hey, it's your life.

You are making conclusions. Evidence means alot to me. It is one of the basis for my faith. Probability is not really relevant. It is certainly mathematically improbable that all the events leading to evolution happened. You assume its blind faith, but nothing could be further from the truth.

Not just you. It's your whole mad delusional belief system - it gets to me every time.

I refer back to the first part of the post.

Zombrex

JimiTime wrote:

Using Christs advice, I learn to Love my neighbour. I learn honesty. I feel better and happier for following this guidence.

You wouldn't do this if it wasn't for the Bible?

JimiTime wrote:

Now, why would I choose to leave this in favour of putting faith in mankind?

Is "Because its not real" not a good enough reason?

JimiTime wrote:

So call it an idiotic fairytale if you will, but from my perspective just knowing that God is, makes life better.

Does this not strike you though as a bit, well, odd.

You want there to be a super powerful supernatural loving being. And wow, look, there is a super powerful supernatural loving being.

Bit of a coincidence, no? Why is there not a supernatural all powerful being that is mean and horrible, that you don't want to exist? Isn't that an equally likely thing that could exist? Yet who things that is true?

Its kinda like saying "Wow, I've got a €50,000 loan out. I really really need to win the Lotto tonight. Because of this I WILL win the Lotto tonight"

The simple fact of the matter is that just because you want something to be true doesn't mean it is.

And it is healthy to be suspicious of the beliefs of anyone who has convinced themselves that what they want to be true must actually be true.

Has it ever struck you as odd that God seems to be everything that anyone would want God to be, loving caring, always there?

For some reason very few people believe in an evil wicked God who is out to get them.

JimiTime wrote:

The very notion that we are a cosmic accident is something I trully cannot fathom. Not even slightly.

Again, just because you don't want to be a cosmic accident doesn't mean you aren't one. You most likely are. A lot of people don't like that idea because they like to feel that humans are some how cosmically important. Again, just because you want to be cosmically important, doesn't mean you actually are.

I think one of the key points in any atheists "conversion" is the realisation that reality is not set up to make us feel better about our lives.

The things we want to be true aren't necessarily true. The things we want to happen won't necessarily happen. Just because we want something doesn't mean we get it.

That may sound harsh. That may sound unattractive. Again, the very fact that we are drawn as a species to the easy answer, the nice answer, the attractive answer, suggests that this answer is actually not true.

We believe it because we want it to be true

JimiTime

Wicknight wrote:

You wouldn't do this if it wasn't for the Bible?

Well, my parents thought me, but they're from a christian line. The love thy neighbour bit though. i have to say, I probably wouldn't follow it only for Jesus' example showed me the way. I mean its a seriously difficult task when you really think about it.

Is "Because its not real" not a good enough reason?

It would be, if I could be convinced.

Does this not strike you though as a bit, well, odd.

You want there to be a super powerful supernatural loving being. And wow, look, there is a super powerful supernatural loving being.

Bit of a coincidence, no? Why is there not a supernatural all powerful being that is mean and horrible, that you don't want to exist? Isn't that an equally likely thing that could exist? Yet who things that is true?

Its kinda like saying "Wow, I've got a €50,000 loan out. I really really need to win the Lotto tonight. Because of this I WILL win the Lotto tonight"

The simple fact of the matter is that just because you want something to be true doesn't mean it is.

Again, I look at the earths beauty, and all the entricate details, like love, taste, music etc, and that tells me that our creator obviously loves us.

And it is healthy to be suspicious of the beliefs of anyone who has convinced themselves that what they want to be true must actually be true.

Again, you are asuming that its just daydreaming. I assure you, its not.

Has it ever struck you as odd that God seems to be everything that anyone would want God to be, loving caring, always there?

No. He created us.

For some reason very few people believe in an evil wicked God who is out to get them.

I think this was covered in the first part of the post.

Again, just because you don't want to be a cosmic accident doesn't mean you aren't one. You most likely are. A lot of people don't like that idea because they like to feel that humans are some how cosmically important. Again, just because you want to be cosmically important, doesn't mean you actually are.

I have no desire to be 'cosmicaly important'. I know God created us, and that he has a plan for us. the reasonings above don't really make much odds, as I know God.

I think one of the key points in any atheists "conversion" is the realisation that reality is not set up to make us feel better about our lives.

I suppose I'll just stay in the matrix though. Its nice in here:D

The things we want to be true aren't necessarily true. The things we want to happen won't necessarily happen. Just because we want something doesn't mean we get it.
That may sound harsh. That may sound unattractive. Again, the very fact that we are drawn as a species to the easy answer, the nice answer, the attractive answer, suggests that this answer is actually not true.

We believe it because we want it to be true

Again, while this is interesting philosophy, it still doesn't convince me of my dellusion.

Tim Robbins

JimiTime wrote:

Well, my parents thought me, but they're from a christian line. The love thy neighbour bit though. i have to say, I probably wouldn't follow it only for Jesus' example showed me the way. I mean its a seriously difficult task when you really think about it.



It would be, if I could be convinced.



Again, I look at the earths beauty, and all the entricate details, like love, taste, music etc, and that tells me that our creator obviously loves us.


Again, you are asuming that its just daydreaming. I assure you, its not.


No. He created us.


I think this was covered in the first part of the post.


I have no desire to be 'cosmicaly important'. I know God created us, and that he has a plan for us. the reasonings above don't really make much odds, as I know God.


I suppose I'll just stay in the matrix though. Its nice in here:D


Again, while this is interesting philosophy, it still doesn't convince me of my dellusion.

Well irrespective of being right or wrong, fair play to you for putting yourself under the grilling of some intellligent atheists. Most Christians just live in a bubble and would go out of their way to avoid us!

Dades

Tim Robbins wrote:

Well irrespective of being right or wrong, fair play to you for putting yourself under the grilling of some intellligent atheists. Most Christians just live in a bubble and would go out of their way to avoid us!

I second that - even though (or because) you are causing some regulars to pull their hair out!

rockbeer

JimiTime wrote:

Using Christs advice, I learn to Love my neighbour. I learn honesty. I feel better and happier for following this guidence.

But you don't need god for these things. Most atheists I know are highly moral beings. And whether or not you achieve a higher moral plane through your faith has no bearing whatsoever on its truth.

JimiTime wrote:

Also, I'm given hope. Hope that there is more to us than this life, though not to the extent that some just basically waste their life waiting on the next, I'm against that line of thinking. I am given great solace in time of bereavement. So all of the above is positive. It doesn't hold me back in life, it enhances it.

But again this has no bearing on the truth of your beliefs. You are still the same person in the same universe, regardless of whether or not god actually exists.

JimiTime wrote:

Now, why would I choose to leave this in favour of putting faith in mankind?

Why do you have to have 'faith' in anything? You assume that as an atheist you would have to replace your faith in god with faith in something else, which suggests to me that it is faith itself which matters to you. Large numbers of atheists live perfectly fulfilling and moral lives despite having nothing you would describe as 'faith'.

JimiTime wrote:

A mankind thats greedy, and hungry for power... So call it an idiotic fairytale if you will, but from my perspective just knowing that God is, makes life better.

I don't disagree with much in your bleak analysis of humanity. But what is god doing to improve any of this? On the contrary, as according to you we are his creations, surely he bears the ultimate responsibility for the horrors you depict. Also, I must point out that religion and religious conflict is at the heart of much of the bleakness you depict. I don't blame religion per sé - humans are quite capable of committing horrors with or without it - but it strikes me that if you condone faith as a concept then you also condone the horrors that result directly from it. As the man said, for good people to do bad things takes religion.

JimiTime wrote:

Thats just it though. I can't understand how anyone could think we weren't created.

Did you ever consider who created the creator? Why can you accept the spontaneous existence of god without apparent difficulty, yet baulk at the idea of the long slow evolution of complex lifeforms without any supernatural involvement?

JimiTime wrote:

The very notion that we are a cosmic accident is something I trully cannot fathom. Not even slightly.

No more than I can entertain the existence of a being complex enough to create a universe with no explanation or evidence for that being's existence.

And even if there does turn out to be a creator after all, I cannot entertain that such a being, with infinity and the entire universe to contend with, could under any circumstances be the god of the bible, who is manifestly created in our image. The limits on our horizons imposed by that deity are frightening to contemplate - the universe is so much more wonderful than that little god and his obsession with petty human morality and behaviour. It simply doesn't add up to me that a god who could create this amazing universe would have deliberately created such flawed inhabitants for it. Was he having a laugh? Or was he just a bit off form that day??

You've got to admit that although your god made a kind of sense back in the bronze age when almost nothing was known beyond our physical environment, he has become an embarrassing anachronism as we discover how vast and extraordinary the universe actually is. God badly needs an overhaul, and therein lies your problem.

JimiTime wrote:

You are making conclusions. Evidence means alot to me. It is one of the basis for my faith.

What evidence do you have for the existence of your god?

JimiTime wrote:

Probability is not really relevant.

Why not?

JimiTime wrote:

It is certainly mathematically improbable that all the events leading to evolution happened.

Improbable, yes, but not prohibitively so, and certainly much less so than the existence of god. To believe otherwise demonstrates a lack of understanding of evolution.

Are you saying you don't believe in evolution?

JimiTime wrote:

I look at the earths beauty, and all the entricate details, like love, taste, music etc, and that tells me that our creator obviously loves us.

But you don't look at all the horrors you portrayed earlier and conclude that he hates us on the same grounds? That in itself is selective interpretation of the most mind-boggling kind.

You are not reasoning from the evidence, you are selecting the evidence to suit your hypothesis. You have already decided that god both exists and is loving, therefore you identify all the positive aspects of life as evidence of this position while dismissing the negative aspects as symptoms of our own personal failings. On what grounds are you so selective? Why not ascribe the positive to us and the negative to god?

Zombrex

JimiTime wrote:

It would be, if I could be convinced.

Yes but the point is you cannot be convinced, because you have a specific outlook that you want to be true. I don't think anything could convince you that it isn't true, or at least you would never accept anything that tried to.

JimiTime wrote:

Again, I look at the earths beauty, and all the entricate details, like love, taste, music etc, and that tells me that our creator obviously loves us.

And when you look at all the pain suffering violence disease ... ?

I imagine your response will be that that is mans fault. Which again is a clever bit of giggery-pokkery on the part of your religion, to get in first with the idea that everything beautiful is the work of God, and everything terrible is the work of man.

JimiTime wrote:

Again, you are asuming that its just daydreaming. I assure you, its not.

Not daydreaming, but wishful thinking.

JimiTime wrote:

No. He created us.

That doesn't explain it. God could have been really nasty and horrible, and created creatures that were really nasty and horrible. Isn't it a bit odd that he isn't like this?

JimiTime wrote:

I have no desire to be 'cosmicaly important'. I know God created us, and that he has a plan for us.

That would make you cosmically important.

Given the size of the universe, the number of stars and planets, the idea that God would pick this small blue rock to plant life on, so he could eventually produce a species called of mammal called humans, who would form a small band of men and women in the Middle East, that would be "God's chosen", makes these people cosmically important.

All this makes a lot more sense 6,000 years ago when as far as man knew the universe was approx 20,000 square miles with only a handful of different tribes roaming about. It would have been natural for them at the time to think "We are special" given that there wasn't a whole lot else.

We now know that the visible universe is between 78 and 98 billion light years. That is 5,879,000,000,000 (miles in a light year) x 98,000,000,000 (light years in universe)

Needless to say that is a lot of miles. To argue that God created this entire universe for us, a medium sized biped mammal, would certainly suggest some form of cosmic importance. The entire universe, all 98 billion light years of it, exists for us to live in.

JimiTime wrote:

I suppose I'll just stay in the matrix though. Its nice in here:D

Fair enough. The problem is when a religious person decides based on your belief to do harm.