BMW Service

jayok

Darragh29 wrote:

Yes, we haven't met a fault yet on a BMW or any other car for that matter that we cannot diagnose and repair. Any independent garage now has the capability to use computer diagnostics to assist in trouble shooting and repair work. This mantra of "I have to go to the main deler because they have the computer", is just pure ignorance.

I'm new to this whole BMW scene, is it true that BMW keys now hold the service info? If so do these need to be programmed also? (n00b question I'm sure)

Darragh29

BrianD3 wrote:

It is nonsense, but if 90% of BMW potential buyers place significant value on "Full BMWSH" then where does that leave the seller who got their car serviced at a good independent?

The point I am making is that much of this discussion is more about market forces than anything else. It seems the market has decided that full BMWSH is desirable. Main dealers have copped onto this and may try to perpetuate it too by giving sh1t trade ins on cars without full BMWSH or else are only following what the market wants. The end result of all this is that everyone wants full BMWSH and we get a situation where a main dealer can charge 150 euro per hour labour and people are willing to pay it just so they have...you guessed it...full BMWSH.

Well I have several customers who drive BMW's and they have absolutely no problem coming to my business to have their servicing & maintenance requirements met. I can't agree with this FBMWSH theory. I accept there may be what you might call a "hard core" BMW group out there with top of the range BMW cars who have more money than sense that might insist on a BMWSH. There are however many people who drive BMW's but are not paying 60K and upwards for their car. Many people are driving around in 02/03 BMW's that are valued at 30K aproximately. I think the majority of BMW drivers fall into this latter category. From my experience, these folks really appreciate the additional service, flexibility and value that an independent garage can offer. The additional value for money is also extremely important to these folks in my opinion.

DublinWriter

jayok wrote:

Sorry for the waffle... any suggestions?

I was in a similar boat to you - 03 320D. 60K on the clock.

Had problems with the car stalling when pulling off. Decided to drop it into Joe Duffy as it was due for a service anyway and I thought as they are the main Irish BMW distributor that I'd be best off with them.

There was a full-service history on the car, but never with a BMW dealer.

I was told at JD's that checking this out would be outside of the normal service as it would involve 'at least an hour's worth of diagnostics and labour' and that the service might resolve the problem.

Fair enough. Got the car back. Cost of service was an unbelievable €900 inc. Vat. Problem still there. Car goes back, turns out it had a faulty crank-shaft sensor. Part took a week to come in, cost €55, but labour was well over €200 plus same rapage again over Y-Bushing joints or whatever.

Total damage? €1,500.

Worst of all was when I checked out the cost of alloys with them. Picked out a nice set and was told that they were €1,000....each! Minus tyres!!!

Feck that. Had a friend of a friend in the trade and picked up a new set of M-tech 17' replicas with Nanking tyres for €800 the lot.

I don't think that I'd ever go to a Main Stealer again after that recent experience. The friend of the friend is an amateur rally driver and he gave me the name of an independant mechanic working out in Meath that apparently some of the Main Dealers have to secretly resort to when they get in deep-shit with client cars.

You have been warned!

jayok

DublinWriter wrote:

Total damage? €1,500.

You have been warned!

Wow - I knew they had a tendency to charge a premium, but that sounds like robbery! TBH at this stage its AC car sales for me - will post how I got on. Thanks for the detailed post DublinWriter.


Re Darrag29 and Indy, just for clarity. I have always tended to use the main dealer for the Honda's I've had and never had an issue with either cost or service. When the interval was 9k miles a half-service was €120 and full €190. Then with the newer cars with the 12.5k service intervals the cost was approx €220-240 per service. Considering he only saw my car once a year the cost savings of an Indy weren't worth it for me personally. Same thing with the BMW, I don't consider it special at all, just continuing the habit of the service trend but with BMW. However, having considered the views of posters here and the potential for rip-off it's Independent for me. I'm not a brand snob by any stretch - just in case it was assumed!

Cyrus

Darragh29 wrote:

Well I have several customers who drive BMW's and they have absolutely no problem coming to my business to have their servicing & maintenance requirements met. I can't agree with this FBMWSH theory. I accept there may be what you might call a "hard core" BMW group out there with top of the range BMW cars who have more money than sense that might insist on a BMWSH. There are however many people who drive BMW's but are not paying 60K and upwards for their car. Many people are driving around in 02/03 BMW's that are valued at 30K aproximately. I think the majority of BMW drivers fall into this latter category. From my experience, these folks really appreciate the additional service, flexibility and value that an independent garage can offer. The additional value for money is also extremely important to these folks in my opinion.

whether people paid the full price for the car or not they were still expensive cars new. i drive an e39 530i which was over 70k new, i paid around a third of that but it was at one point a 70,000 euro car, as such it has different service requirements and more specialised requirements than a cheaper car.

i prefer not to use main dealers and where an independent has built up a good reputation i use them, ala gerry campbell when i had an alfa, jomo when i had a vw and ac for my past 2 bmws.

these guys cost more than other 'independent' garages but they offer a better level of service than any main dealer at a lower cost and they have a genuine interest in the marque.

and i was just asking if you had the diagnostic software, you seem very defensive about your position? perhaps instead of moaning on boards about the bad beat indy garages get and how people are ignorant to the work involved etc maybe you should get involved on some of the user boards for the various marques. ie ac car sales are very active on bmw-driver.net and jomo on vagdrivers.net. thats how you build a name and loyalty.

Cyrus

DublinWriter wrote:

I was in a similar boat to you - 03 320D. 60K on the clock.

Had problems with the car stalling when pulling off. Decided to drop it into Joe Duffy as it was due for a service anyway and I thought as they are the main Irish BMW distributor that I'd be best off with them.

There was a full-service history on the car, but never with a BMW dealer.

I was told at JD's that checking this out would be outside of the normal service as it would involve 'at least an hour's worth of diagnostics and labour' and that the service might resolve the problem.

Fair enough. Got the car back. Cost of service was an unbelievable €900 inc. Vat. Problem still there. Car goes back, turns out it had a faulty crank-shaft sensor. Part took a week to come in, cost €55, but labour was well over €200 plus same rapage again over Y-Bushing joints or whatever.

Total damage? €1,500.

Worst of all was when I checked out the cost of alloys with them. Picked out a nice set and was told that they were €1,000....each! Minus tyres!!!

Feck that. Had a friend of a friend in the trade and picked up a new set of M-tech 17' replicas with Nanking tyres for €800 the lot.

I don't think that I'd ever go to a Main Stealer again after that recent experience. The friend of the friend is an amateur rally driver and he gave me the name of an independant mechanic working out in Meath that apparently some of the Main Dealers have to secretly resort to when they get in deep-shit with client cars.

You have been warned!

coupla things, unfortunately the fitting of the CPS is a tricky job, i dont doubt that it took over an hour and at the rates those lads charge its gonna add up

also the price of the wheels is a universal thing among all manufactures, any 17-18" oem alloys seems to cost 230 euro and up without tyres!

last thing i would say, reps are fine if you avoid pot holes, but putting nangkangs on a rwd car with any sort of power is very dangerous, especially in the wet:eek:

JHMEG

If you're not going to do it yourself, just bring it to a good mechanic, who knows what he's doing. I know only one, in Co Leitrim. 35 years experience, and you name it he's worked on it, including all the "luxury" German cars. Last time I was there (chewin' the fat) he was surgically removing the innards from a failed cat on an '02 Merc coupe of some sort.

He's about a third the cost of a Dublin outfit (first full service there on the wife's Corsa in 1996 cost all of £14!). He has a 2-3 week waiting list tho.

milltown

Wrt the value of a FBMWSH come selling time, versus a stamp from AC:
If it were a 318i I would probably advise going the dealer route and keeping the right stamps in the book. There are so many of them about, and for sale, that those stamps might just prove to be the deal closer. Also, and I don't want to spark off old debates again, the 316s and 318s are what I would call aspirational cars that a lot of people buy for the badge.

With a 325, you are more likely to be selling to an enthusiast who knows what he/she wants and has done enough research to know the good independents by their reputation.

Once the BMW warranty is up, mine won't be seeing the inside of a dealer workshop again.

Seth Brundle

Cyrus wrote:

DublinWriter wrote:

I was in a similar boat to you - 03 320D. 60K on the clock.

Had problems with the car stalling when pulling off. Decided to drop it into Joe Duffy as it was due for a service anyway and I thought as they are the main Irish BMW distributor that I'd be best off with them.

There was a full-service history on the car, but never with a BMW dealer.

I was told at JD's that checking this out would be outside of the normal service as it would involve 'at least an hour's worth of diagnostics and labour' and that the service might resolve the problem.

Fair enough. Got the car back. Cost of service was an unbelievable €900 inc. Vat. Problem still there. Car goes back, turns out it had a faulty crank-shaft sensor. Part took a week to come in, cost €55, but labour was well over €200 plus same rapage again over Y-Bushing joints or whatever.

Total damage? €1,500.

Worst of all was when I checked out the cost of alloys with them. Picked out a nice set and was told that they were €1,000....each! Minus tyres!!!

Feck that. Had a friend of a friend in the trade and picked up a new set of M-tech 17' replicas with Nanking tyres for €800 the lot.

I don't think that I'd ever go to a Main Stealer again after that recent experience. The friend of the friend is an amateur rally driver and he gave me the name of an independant mechanic working out in Meath that apparently some of the Main Dealers have to secretly resort to when they get in deep-shit with client cars.

You have been warned!

coupla things, unfortunately the fitting of the CPS is a tricky job, i dont doubt that it took over an hour and at the rates those lads charge its gonna add up

also the price of the wheels is a universal thing among all manufactures, any 17-18" oem alloys seems to cost 230 euro and up without tyres!

last thing i would say, reps are fine if you avoid pot holes, but putting nangkangs on a rwd car with any sort of power is very dangerous, especially in the wet:eek:

I dunno about that.
Last year my car developed a hesitation and I eventually got it diagnosed by BMW when on holidays in France. The non-English speaking BMW mechanic had the codes within seconds and the next couple of minutes were spent trying to figure out what he was trying to tell me (as I have broken French). Anyhow it was the "capteur villebrequin" or crankshaft sensor to you and me (#9 here...). The diag cost was about €20 IIRC. How JDs didn't pick up the fault is beyond me!
I got the part (can't recall the price but IIRC it was about €80) when I returned home (after a few days for delivery) and fitted it in less than an hour.
No way could it cost enough to bump a service price to €1500!

I agree about the nankang though!

JHMEG

kbannon wrote:

I agree about the nankang though!

Nankang are owned by Yokohama, the tyre of choice on some serious performance cars. And nankang are a favourite with taxi drivers. There are far, far worse out there (eg Debica)

Mr.Diagnostic

Darragh29 wrote:

Yes, we haven't met a fault yet on a BMW or any other car for that matter that we cannot diagnose and repair. Any independent garage now has the capability to use computer diagnostics to assist in trouble shooting and repair work. This mantra of "I have to go to the main deler because they have the computer", is just pure ignorance.

Hi Darragh,

That is quite a claim to make. Unless you have purchased a whole range of dealer diagnostic tools (not claimed dealer level aftermarket one's) then that is not possible.
Take BMW as an example, can you say that you can com with every module in every model? Can you code/program each of these modules. There is not an aftermarket tool available that can do this except one which costs 10k and only does BMW.

Back on topic. There is no need to be afraid of BMW's. They are slightly more complex than some and not as complex as others. There are plenty of BMW specialists out there who can service them.

Cyrus

JHMEG wrote:

Nankang are owned by Yokohama, the tyre of choice on some serious performance cars. And nankang are a favourite with taxi drivers. There are far, far worse out there (eg Debica)

none of the what you said makes them any safer in the wet

how anyone can put a tyre like that on an expensive car (or any car for that matter) baffles me

Seth Brundle

JHMEG wrote:

Nankang are owned by Yokohama, the tyre of choice on some serious performance cars. And nankang are a favourite with taxi drivers. There are far, far worse out there (eg Debica)

The fact that they are related to Yokahama doen't mean anything!
Nankangs tend to be budget tyres with harder compounds providing longevity but at the expense of grip.
Have a read of these:
http://phorums.com.au/archive/index.php/t-115946.html
http://www.epinions.com/Nankang_NS_1_Radial_Passenger_Performance_Tire/display_~reviews

JHMEG

kbannon wrote:

The fact that they are related to Yokahama doen't mean anything!
http://www.epinions.com/Nankang_NS_1_Radial_Passenger_Performance_Tire/display_~reviews

Are you agreeing with me or disagreeing? 8 out of 9 reviewers gave them 3 or more stars. Three gave them the full five, one saying "good traction in the rain and they corner very quick".

They seem to be better than I thought!

JHMEG

Cyrus wrote:

none of the what you said makes them any safer in the wet

Nothing I can say makes any brand of tyre safer in the wet. I wish I had such powers.:cool:

Seth Brundle

JHMEG wrote:

Are you agreeing with me or disagreeing? 8 out of 9 reviewers gave them 3 or more stars. Three gave them the full five, one saying "good traction in the rain and they corner very quick".

They seem to be better than I thought!

I went by what they were saying more than the star rating:
headings like:
Taking Chances buying this Tire
Nankang NS1, not for the twisties
The rest of the headings just indicate that the buyers were surprised at how good they were for the price - that doesn't mean they were good! They are a budget brand and could not be compared to something like GY Eagle F1.
They will do what they were designed for but I wouldn't trust them to keep me out of a ditch when driving with some spirit!

Darragh29

Mr.Diagnostic wrote:

Hi Darragh,

That is quite a claim to make. Unless you have purchased a whole range of dealer diagnostic tools (not claimed dealer level aftermarket one's) then that is not possible.
Take BMW as an example, can you say that you can com with every module in every model? Can you code/program each of these modules. There is not an aftermarket tool available that can do this except one which costs 10k and only does BMW.

My point is that we have enough diagnostics capability here to solve the problems we have seen so far, be it on a BMW or another car type. There may come a day when we find ourselves stuck, every garage will, including main dealers. I never said we have the capability to code every module on every car. What I said was that we have enough capability in terms of equipment and trained technicians to accurately diagnose and solve problems that have been brought to us so far.

JHMEG

kbannon wrote:

I went by what they were saying more than the star rating:
headings like:
Taking Chances buying this Tire
Nankang NS1, not for the twisties

You appear to be a glass-half-empty type person! The not for the twisties lad has them on a Neon... the car might not be for the twisties either.

Cyrus

any independent review of nangkangs by people who test tyres have shown them to be rubbish, with stopping distances up to a car length and a half over good tyres,

just because joe bloggs thinks they are great because they were 70% cheaper than something good doesnt make them any better

kdevitt

Have had a lot of work done by Al in AC and have always been happy - they've even had to repair damage caused by a gob****e of a mechanic in Joe Duffys.

With regards to using a BMW specialist vs any other mechanic, I probably wouldn't be too concerned - at the end of the day though once I find someone I'm happy to leave the car with I tend to keep using them.

JHMEG

Cyrus wrote:

any independent review of nangkangs by people who test tyres have shown them to be rubbish, with stopping distances up to a car length and a half over good tyres,

just because joe bloggs thinks they are great because they were 70% cheaper than something good doesnt make them any better

cyrus, I don't want to keep this thread off topic. I'm not saying nankangs are the best. I'm saying they not the worst. I'd be interested in reading some of those reviews you're on about, if you'd post a link or two?

Andrewf20

Cyrus wrote:

none of the what you said makes them any safer in the wet

how anyone can put a tyre like that on an expensive car (or any car for that matter) baffles me

100% agreed. The NS-1s are an atrocious tyre. Ive seen them on 18inch Alpina rims on E30 325i's. Id say thats scary.

jayok

Mailman wrote:

Sorry for being so specific but have you checked your speedo against a GPS.
If that is a true 2100rpm at 120kmph I'm well impressed; I like quiet motorway cruising.

Ok - so I checked last night. It's about 2100 - 2200 rpm (general area of the dial) for 120km/hr. The torque levels means there's quite tall gears in it.

Mailman

jayok wrote:

Ok - so I checked last night. It's about 2100 - 2200 rpm (general area of the dial) for 120km/hr. The torque levels means there's quite tall gears in it.

Impressive. my 2.5 V6 mated to a 5 speed auto does about 2800rpm at 120kmph.

JHMEG

jayok wrote:

Ok - so I checked last night. It's about 2100 - 2200 rpm (general area of the dial) for 120km/hr. The torque levels means there's quite tall gears in it.

My Accord Coupe 2.0 auto was about the same, or maybe a little higher. The RPM on the manual is quite a bit higher at the same speed in 5th. Just under 3k iirc.

I think it's more because it's auto, rather than spades of torque.

jayok

Ok - so just an update to anyone else who was in similar situation re BMW service.

I have used AC Car Sales and I have to say, I am impressed. Friendly, efficient and they seemed to check the car fully. Spotted the need for replacment bushings and discussed this item with me. I also got the bushings replaced after the discussion (another day) and all at a (what I think is)reasonable cost. I would recommend them.

JHMEG

Mind sharing what the costs were? I promise I won't start giving you a hard time! (And what bushes were gone, and how much they cost.. Co-incidentally I was just looking at bushes today that failed the NCT on a 1.5iLS)

jayok

Sure full service was €300 was consisted of €160 for labour 2 hours at 80 per hour) , then parts about €100 (it took 6.5 litres of oil!) then VAT.

The front bushes were gone (apparently a known issue with the E46) but I'm sure the UK salts didn't help. I got the bushes replaced on this visit and the coolant, brake fluid and ATF fluid changed. Total cost €400. Labour was €160 and parts and VAT the rest.

<edit> Oh, I also got the light alignment checked as well

Darragh29

Cyrus wrote:

whether people paid the full price for the car or not they were still expensive cars new. i drive an e39 530i which was over 70k new, i paid around a third of that but it was at one point a 70,000 euro car, as such it has different service requirements and more specialised requirements than a cheaper car.

i prefer not to use main dealers and where an independent has built up a good reputation i use them, ala gerry campbell when i had an alfa, jomo when i had a vw and ac for my past 2 bmws.

these guys cost more than other 'independent' garages but they offer a better level of service than any main dealer at a lower cost and they have a genuine interest in the marque.

and i was just asking if you had the diagnostic software, you seem very defensive about your position? perhaps instead of moaning on boards about the bad beat indy garages get and how people are ignorant to the work involved etc maybe you should get involved on some of the user boards for the various marques. ie ac car sales are very active on bmw-driver.net and jomo on vagdrivers.net. thats how you build a name and loyalty.

If you think I'm being a bit defensive, to be honest it's a little hard to listen to BMW brand snobbery on here and BMWFSH when you see large BMW main dealers operating a service dept with 7 apprentices and 3 qualified mechanics, charging over 100 Euro an hour for labour, with staff turnover rates that would mortify a Mc Donald's restaurant. The reality is that the most likely scenario here is that an unqualified 1st or 2nd year apprentice, not a mechanic, is who is providing your BMWFSH. While this is going on, you have people who apparently won't touch a car that doesn't have a BMWFSH, although in reality, this car has probably been serviced since new by a 1st or 2nd year unqualified apprentice.

Cyrus

i totally agree, thats why i use ac car sales aswell