Jonathan Edwards Atheist

cavedave

‘I have never been happier’ says the man who won gold but lost God

pH

While I'm hesitant to be too excited about anyone changing either to or from theism, Edwards certainly wore his Christianity on his sleeve and was a very public figure in the UK's born again movement - so I guess his reversion* to atheism is newsworthy.

After reading the article it seems to imply that his 'road to Damascus' incident was hearing that St Paul's conversion on the road to Damascus might have been an epileptic fit. This seems strangely lacking, it would be interesting to read about exactly what questions he found troubling and why for him, 'faith' was no longer a good enough answer to them.

* - to borrow a term from the Islamic usage - we're all born atheists so it's the natural state to revert to when you lose your God delusion.

MoominPapa

pH wrote:

While I'm hesitant to be too excited about anyone changing either to or from theism, Edwards certainly wore his Christianity on his sleeve and was a very public figure in the UK's born again movement - so I guess his reversion* to atheism is newsworthy.

If it was Cliff Richard it would be something, but this guy? ho hum

cavedave

The guy was the presenter of "songs of praise" which does indicate some standing in the religious community

we're all born atheists so it's the natural state to revert to when you lose your God delusion.

The evidence seems to show that we are born evolved to believe in god.

But you are right one mans personal belief in god is not a big deal

Myksyk

pH wrote:

After reading the article it seems to imply that his 'road to Damascus' incident was hearing that St Paul's conversion on the road to Damascus might have been an epileptic fit.

I think he was merely offering an example of how he had taken all biblical tales at face value and the possibility of a more rational, natural explanation for events hadn't even occurred to him.

Dades

Very interesting indeed. I like this part:

"One thing that I can say, however, is that even if I am unable to discover some fundamental purpose to life, this will not give me a reason to return to Christianity. Just because something is unpalatable does not mean that it is not true."

I'll be interested to hear the reactions from Christian sources.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Fanny Cradock

I think it quite shocking and saddening. To so completely turn your back on the defining aspect of your life... wow!


The article doesn't really discuss the finer details of his new stance beyond the curious 'after I gave up athletics I lost my faith' and 'when you think about it rationally' statements. I wonder will he now grasp his new found non-belief and begin touring the world in attempts to show believers like myself the error of my way.

Myksyk

Fanny Cradock wrote:

I wonder will he now ... begin touring the world in attempts to show believers like myself the error of my way.

You mean copy the traditional Christian missionary fundamentals of strategically and aggressively imposing their beliefs on the rest of the world? ... probably not.

Fanny Cradock

Funnily enough, that's not what I meant

Myksyk

Don't be coy Fanny ... feel free to correct and clarify.;)

Dades

Fanny Cradock wrote:

I think it quite shocking and saddening. To so completely turn your back on the defining aspect of your life... wow!

He hasn't "turned his back" on anything. God was a defining aspect of his life - in a very positive way - but now he doesn't believe God exists (at least in any traditional form). Turning your back on something implies a choice - but you can't continue to be a Christian if you don't believe God exists.

Fanny Cradock wrote:

I wonder will he now grasp his new found non-belief and begin touring the world in attempts to show believers like myself the error of my way.

I very much doubt it. Sounds like a personal thing to him.

Fanny Cradock

Myksyk wrote:

Don't be coy Fanny ... feel free to correct and clarify.;)

Nah, you'll again just incorrectly paraphrase anything I would say

Myksyk wrote:

He hasn't "turned his back" on anything. God was a defining aspect of his life - in a very positive way - but now he doesn't believe God exists (at least in any traditional form). Turning your back on something implies a choice - but you can't continue to be a Christian if you don't believe God exists.

I understand your point. So, in a similar manner, would you say that a Christian didn't then choose to believe in God?

Dades

Fanny Cradock wrote:

I understand your point. So, in a similar manner, would you say that a Christian didn't then choose to believe in God?

I wouldn't say the reverse is as clear cut.

Without doubt many people choose to believe in God because they don't like the alternative. That said, others have the kind of strong faith where belief is not an option, it's a requisite.

Myksyk

Fanny Cradock wrote:

Nah, you'll again just incorrectly paraphrase anything I would say

I would genuinely like you to clarify the point. It sounded to me like you were offering a gentle sideswipe at the possibility of someone publicly talking about their lack of belief, possibly to believers. This just seemed ironic given that 'touring the world showing people the error of their ways' is an express part of the mission of most major world religions so I'm wondering what problem you'd have with this?

Tim Robbins

cavedave wrote:

‘I have never been happier’ says the man who won gold but lost God

Very interesting article. Cheers. I think this kind of stuff has a much bigger impact on the Christian community than anything Dawkins / Hitchens / Harris etc. says.

Myksyk

Tim Robbins wrote:

I think this kind of stuff has a much bigger impact on the Christian community than anything Dawkins / Hitchens / Harris etc. says.

I'm not convinced of that Tim. I doubt this will have any impact on true believers. They will probably just view Edwards as a poor lost soul who'll hopefully find his way back.

Tim Robbins

Myksyk wrote:

I'm not convinced of that Tim. I doubt this will have any impact on true believers. They will probably just view Edwards as a poor lost soul who'll hopefully find his way back.

Putting the shoe on the other foot, I wonder what would happen in the atheist world if Dawkins converted to Christianity

Tar.Aldarion

Nothing, I would call hime deluded(after hearing his reasoning), that's about it.
There would be a big outcry from Christians.

Asiaprod

Tim Robbins wrote:

Putting the shoe on the other foot, I wonder what would happen in the atheist world if Dawkins converted to Christianity

He would probably suffer a big decrease in book sales.

Tar.Aldarion

Until his next book.

PDN

I have never understood the celebrity endorement idea, least of all when it is applied to religion or philosophy. Why would anyone be more likely to become a Christian because a triple-jumper professed Christianity? Equally, why would anyone be influenced if said triple jumper changes his mind? Is there some kind of concept that the ability to jump further is linked to an ability to understand philosophical and theological truths?

I find the same trend equally incomprehensible when applied to politics. Actors and musicians proclaim their opposition or support for some cause and, presumably, there are sufficient brain-dead people out there for such endorsements to actually influence others.

pinksoir

One could also make the same argument for scientists. I mean, when people claim that such and such scientist believes in God, therefore giving weight to the argument for a god. But if there is absolutely no empirical evidence of God, which is all scientists have to go on, then I don't see how a scientist believing in a god should be an incentive to anyone else to believe. In much the same way a triple jumper believing in God shouldn't be an incentive to anyone. Though this is how the world works unfortunately...

Tim Robbins

PDN wrote:

I have never understood the celebrity endorement idea, least of all when it is applied to religion or philosophy. Why would anyone be more likely to become a Christian because a triple-jumper professed Christianity? Equally, why would anyone be influenced if said triple jumper changes his mind? Is there some kind of concept that the ability to jump further is linked to an ability to understand philosophical and theological truths?

I find the same trend equally incomprehensible when applied to politics. Actors and musicians proclaim their opposition or support for some cause and, presumably, there are sufficient brain-dead people out there for such endorsements to actually influence others.

You are quite right. Sometimes I think Bono thinks he is Jesus.

robindch

PDN wrote:

Why would anyone be more likely to become a Christian because a triple-jumper professed Christianity?

Not, of course, because he's a triple-jumper, but because he's an Olympic gold medal winner who claimed his success was due to his religion and that his ultimate aim was not to win gold, but to spread his religion. In other words, he basically wanted his success to be part of a marketing campaign in favour of his religion.

PDN wrote:

Is there some kind of concept that the ability to jump further is linked to an ability to understand philosophical and theological truths?

No, but that's not the point. Edwards claimed his success was due to Jesus, and that's quite a potent marketing message when used in a society which applauds such success. Many people aren't interested in the nuts and bolts of the belief system, but rather the much simpler task of acquiring something which a successful person attributes his success to, in the hope that some of this success might rub off on them too.

PDN wrote:

I find the same trend equally incomprehensible when applied to politics

Superficially, yes, is is incomprehensible, until you bear in mind how religions, political parties and other cultural entities stay 'alive'. Interest in them being acquired either vertically from generation to generation (ie, catholic church + church-run schools), or from one's peers (modern protestantism + testimonies), or some mixture of the two.

Bearing this in mind, Edwards world-beating triple-jumping is pretty much the same kind of celebrity endorsement that Tom Cruise and company do for scientology. And people certainly do go for it.

DapperGent

He always seemed like a decent sort in a lot of ways, I'm really happy for him.

I wonder if there's any chance he can have a chat with the Brazilian football team, man those guys are annoying.

Zombrex

PDN wrote:

I have never understood the celebrity endorement idea

Wasn't that the point of Jesus (half serious!)

Zombrex

Fanny Cradock wrote:

The article doesn't really discuss the finer details of his new stance beyond the curious 'after I gave up athletics I lost my faith' and 'when you think about it rationally' statements.

Well from the article it seems like he spent most of his life not critically analysing his faith in God, he just accepting it. And once he did start thinking about it properly, analysing it, he realised it was all most likely nonsense.

This I would imagine would be a common experience for atheists.

As they say, the world is divided into two groups, atheists and people who haven't thought about religion properly