29x13 - Last of the Timelords [SPOILERS]

ixoy

Ok, I have to go in and straight away complain about the "reset button" ending What an insultingly poor plot device to use for a season finale. It's bad enough when Trek used it to use it for a weekly episode but to see it here in a finale? Eugh.

Didn't like Doctor Gollum either or the Master keeping him in a dog house. Their relationship was never about such abject humiliation - it was about winning, not panto-like cruelty. Why on earth would the Doctor shrink like that? Nonsense. More pointedly, the Doctor was absent for far too much of this episode. Yes, he initiated the plot but he then stood side-lined for a vast chunk of the episode. That's not good.

Magical jiggery-pokery again too. S1 finale had nonsense powers with Rose and "bad wolf" and now we get more glowing energy and a flying Doctor (that looked very unconvincing). The Doctor saved by a meme, blah. It's nice in a sense for the world to acknowledge him but this was far too over the top.

And then there's the Master. Didn't work for me in a large way - for a start there was his humiliation of the Doctor. Yes, the Master would like that but he always craved the opportunity of pitting his wits against the Doctor, and not just keeping him as some sort of pet.
Also, we're now meant to believe that he's always heard these drums? Really - he just never mentioned it before now, despite numerous appearances prior to this storyline? Grumble!
I'm also assuming that the hand at the end is the Master. Best guess is that Lucy Saxon got taken over by the Master at the end, which is why she shot "him". That's her hand we see then reclaiming "her/his" ring. Unfortunately a male-to-female Time Lord change reminds me of "Curse of the Fatal Death", whose panto-like qualities RTD might actually admire...

Martha leaving, I'm assuming is only for the Xmas finale. Hopefully, if she returns for S4, we won't have any more of the companion-loves-the-Doctor crap that RTD has foisted on us. His obsession with unrequited love is tiring.

The Toclafane as citizens of Utopia? It doesn't stand up to scrutiny to me. I think the rumoured idea of it being young Time Lord kids would've worked better rather than a rather bizarre idea that humanity just regressed.
Oh and the fact that the one Toclafane, out of six billion, that Martha examines just happens to be that kid? Lame.

I did like the Doctor's handling of the Master. He treated him humanely and cared about him and the fact they were the last ones left. Worked for me and DT did well - he just wasn't in nearly enough of it.

One final thing worth mentioning is that throwaway line about Jack being the Face of Bo. It fits in pretty well with what we know, although it does mean Torchwood loses an edge of danger. Read somewhere that RTD just threw that in at the last minute, so obviously not planned just serendipity (for him).
Hopefully though, Jack has resolved his angst issues and will be his more cheery, and enjoyable, self in S2 of Torchwood.

Overall, I'm not impressed. Even if there were some nice parts, it's criminal side lining the Doctor so much in screen time, having some stupid concepts and most of all: reset button. I just hope S4 will allow Moffat and Cornell to write a lot more, including the finale. RTD needs to take a break from these grand episodes for the sake of quality.

nothing

I quite liked it... Though I do understand your points. I was quite annoyed by the "resetting" thing and that only the ones in the ship thing remembered it all. I also didn't like that the Toclafane were humans, I was also hoping the Timelord rumour was true. I think we all knew there'd be a cop-out with the Master's death... I was shocked by Martha leaving, didn't see that coming at all.

Mr E

Yeah I was kind of disappointed too. The big reset button was very lazy. Liked the Face of Bo revelation, didn't think the Utopia thing was terrible, and wasn't surprised with the little twist at the funeral pyre.

Not terrible, but a bit of a letdown after the last few.

Stark

ixoy wrote:

I just hope S4 will allow Moffat and Cornell to write a lot more, including the finale. RTD needs to take a break from these grand episodes for the sake of quality.

Did you not hear the joyous news? RTD is leaving the show

Edit: Oh wait, read the article wrong. He's leaving after S4

Karl Hungus

Overall, I just didn't like John Simm as the Master. He wasn't Eric Roberts bad, but he was still pretty bad. All the other flaws of the last 2 episodes don't really amount to squat when we had such a crappy Master. The whole origins/drums just stunk.

I'll agree with Ixoy's points about him too, he just didn't feel like the Master of the old days. It's amazing just how right Derek Jacobi played him, and they killed him off.

BuffyBot

It was..ok. Weakest of the 3 parts though. Didn't like the sidelineing and the CGI doctor, or what the master did to him..it just didn't make sense to me..and the whole word saying the Doctors name was 3 month out of date camembert cheesy.

I liked John Simm's master it must be said. He had that nice-to-unhinged in 60 seconds vibe which made it hard to guess where it was going to lead.

As for Martha..meh, well, whatever. We'll see.

Stark

I generally liked the Master apart from his penchant for OTT camp music played really loudly and the drumming thing. The episode itself was all over the place, cheesy and overblown. Last week's episode was much better.

Venom

I think LotTL was probley the worst episode of the new Who series to date and made "love and monster's" look like "blink" in comparsion.

The Golum Doctor looked crap and "Blink" had the low budget for crap like this? WTF. The plot was utter rubbish and any ****ty writer could of turned the 3 parter into a much better 2 parter. Why cant these episode's be given to moffat instead of ****ing RTD

John Simm's was a great master in the trailer's due to the award deserving editing but was utter pants in the show itself. The lame songs and camp over the top acting just isint Master like at all.

For series 4 Im just gonna watch the none RTD episodes as more ****e like the last 3 episodes I need to see like I need a hole in the head.

aidan_walsh

Oh and the fact that the one Toclafane, out of six billion, that Martha examines just happens to be that kid?

Didn't he say something about a shared mind, or memory?

The Tolcafane being the Utopians was expected enough, though the idea of the Doctors beloved humanity just regressing into children, and then homicidal maniacs doesn't sit well.

Maybe, just maybe if we all think RTD at the same time we can get him to explode into a cloud of vapour too?

I did like Jack as The Face of Bo. I'm not sure that I agree about Torchwood losing a sense of danger - as long as we knew that Jack can't die it was never going to have it.

Mind you, Jack admitting that for the entire year he was locked up he could only think of them. It could only have been a sense of relief, couldn't it? No more Frogface or moany Gwen. If being shackled up on Cloudbase with the Master and the Mysterons is all it takes, then count me in!

All in all, the Doctor Who Weakest Link special was more entertaining...

Venom wrote:

"Blink" had the low budget for crap like this?

Blink didn't need a higher budget. In fact, if anything Blink is a pretty good argument for lowering the budget for the show overall next season - it might force some tighter writing and bring the show back closer to its roots than Dobby the House Elf.

Christmas? How many trips on the Titanic does the Doctor need to take? At least we seem to be at sea for this one, so we won't run into the little issue of 9 on Southampton pier with Mr and Mrs Daniels.

Kwekubo

ixoy wrote:

I'm also assuming that the hand at the end is the Master. Best guess is that Lucy Saxon got taken over by the Master at the end, which is why she shot "him". That's her hand we see then reclaiming "her/his" ring. Unfortunately a male-to-female Time Lord change reminds me of "Curse of the Fatal Death", whose panto-like qualities RTD might actually admire...

I haven't listened to it yet so I'm not sure, but apparently RTD mentions in the commentary podcast for this episode that he only put the sequence in so that future production teams have the option of reviving the Master - he's not going anywhere with it next season.

David Michael

I prefered the old master.

thelordofcheese

Not the greatest episode ever, and the reset was lazy, but i still liked it.

it's taken a while, but now i can tell RTD episodes when i see them, i don't share everyones elses massive hard on for hating the guy, but it's probably time he sat back and let other people have a go, or run the risk of becoming the next Berman and Braga.

Also Starring LeVar Burton

Didn't think it was a good episode, but it wasn't the worst we've seen. I liked the Jack/Face Of Bo revelation, but that was about it. Everything else was quite boring and predictable.
I really wouldn't mind if Freema Agyeman didn't revive her role as Martha next year as Tennant's main companion, because even though she was a step-up from Piper, I'm getting quite sick of her.
I also think that the Doctor should have more than one main companion next year, like the good old days when there used to be up to 4 companions at any time. Is there anything to be said for having Nick Frost (he'd be hilarious working with Tennant), Alexa Chung (token hot girl) and James McAvoy (a serious actor to play a serious companion, much like Ianto in Torchwood) as next year's companions?

Stark

I think he should have Sally Sparrow and Tom Milligan as companions. And maybe some Bel Ami twink to keep Russell T. Davies happy.

BuffyBot

The lame songs and camp over the top acting just isint Master like at all.

I don't know. Why not? After all, a new Master doesn't need to have much similarity to the old ones is the same way as the Doctor doesn't. And it was really only purging some of the old-Master camp into a new format

popebenny16

Good:

Jack being the face of Boe, goes to show hoe instant inspiration can be a good thing on RTD's part. Also, Jack is now freed of his angst-filled 100 year wait for the Doctor and he'll be a lot more fun in Tourchwood S2, he'll need to be coz he's gonna have Martha Jones for part of it..............

The Master.... if you look back at his development during the 1980's you can see that there were only two things he wanted: his survival and to humiliate and torture the Doctor - its also there in the dreaded film and so I can see why RTD has developed him along those lines as it fits in with the character (see bad below though).

Lucy Saxon: I don't think the Master zipped into her, rather I think he had a get out plan - he beds Martha's mother to kill him, when she doesnt his companion - who had a hypnotised quality to her all along - does it....

Martha: Proper order getting out.

Bad:

Drums: He's never mentioned it before. It's rubbish.

Everyone says Doctor: Yeah, at the exact right time.....worldwide.... which the Doctor didn't know about when he whispered in her ear..... poor.

The Doctor: Hey, he was aged before you know. By 500 years. Did he turn into an elf? No. (I know this is him apparently without his regenerations and therefore his true self..... more rubbish) Has anyone ever mentioned this before? No. Rubbish. Also, its never good when he isn't the centre of attention....

Re-set button: Ok, a year ago the doctor said that you couldn't turn off the paradox machine without knowing what its fore... coz you could blow up the solar system. It's ok, Jack can just fire a machine gun at it and hope for the best! Awful.

Flash Gordon: 27 years ago someone took Ming's ring. Will it be 27 years before we see the Master again? Hopefully not... just so long as he's not the villain every week.

Martha: She's off to Tourchwood for a bit and then the second half of S30 - with another Companion. Good or Bad?

The bloody Titanic: Yeah. What? What? I am fed up with RTD self-referencing his own shows. These are the exact same words last season ended with. OK, Russ, off you go to the jacks with Playgirl and pretend you're the Sci-Fi version of the Beatles and this was your Glass Onion, you twat.

Stark

popebenny16 wrote:

he'll need to be coz he's gonna have Martha Jones for part of it..............

It'll be fantastic. Herself and Gwen can go shopping together. They can go to H&M! It'll be so exciting.

BuffyBot

Then they can have group sex with Jack and Ianto and some aliens...

Oh, how I can wait!

Marksie

ixoy wrote:

Oh and the fact that the one Toclafane, out of six billion, that Martha examines just happens to be that kid? Lame.
.

Actually, if you listen to the Toclafane talking it mentions that they all "share memories".

The third instalment of the finale was weaker than the other two admittedly adn D. Jacobi was excellent. But i enjoyed the camp theatrics of simms and i would agree that udating him was a great idea. IMO he had been reduced to a lame excuse in the later series (pre 2005)
Still sometimes with such an excellent buildup, you can get a dip when the final scenes are reached.
The person i watched it with grumbled about me predicting the outcome and the plot development. Predictable, maybe but in a programme ostensibly aimed at the 8-12 year old bracket, it was pretty obvious that the plot device would be used to return the world to its "normal" state. (you wouldnt want the kids thinking that the doctor COULDN'T succeed).

The idea of maintaining a paradox to allow it to happen could be the only option as they had effectively ruled out parallel worlds as a source of the toclafane, if one was to accept the premise that they were the last remnants of humanity.

Yeah, the ming the merciless ring allusion was not lost on me either.

I did hear that martha is going to be joined by another companion. Will be intersting to see what two companions will bring to the show*

(* being brought up on the jon pertwee/ tom baker years. with sarah jane smith and harry)

Gavin W

In the years that the show was off the air, there was a long-standing assumption amongst fans that if it came back and re-introduced the Master we would see a return to the understated menace of Delgado, rather than the campness of Ainley. I think that's why the decision to go in completely the opposite direction, and have him even more barking mad than ever before, came as such a shock to many.

I wasn't sure about it at first but after a second watch of TSOD the characterisation grew on me, and so being prepared for it in LOTTL I enjoyed it all the more. The song-and-dance at the start with him pushing the Doctor in the wheelchair is actually one of my favourite bits in the episode.:) As pointed out above there's no reason for the Master's incarnations to behave the same as each other any more than there is with the Doctor's.

CaptainNegative wrote:

I also think that the Doctor should have more than one main companion next year, like the good old days when there used to be up to 4 companions at any time.

There was never more than 3, unless you're counting the UNIT regulars? The news is that there'll be a new companion for the whole 13 episodes next year, with Martha rejoining half-way through the season.

popebenny16 wrote:

Lucy Saxon: I don't think the Master zipped into her, rather I think he had a get out plan - he beds Martha's mother to kill him, when she doesnt his companion - who had a hypnotised quality to her all along - does it....

Sure you're not getting mixed up with Torchwood there?

Fysh

Ugh. I quite liked the first two parts of the series finale, but with Last Of The Time Lords as its conclusion I can only assume that RTD thinks far more highly of his writing than the rest of us.

Most of this episode was dross : the doctor relegated to sitting in a cage for pretty much the entire episode, the rather crap explanation for the Toclafane, the "saved by magical bullsh*t" meme-rescue, referencing Flash Gordon, the overdone-until-I-wanted-to-gouge-my-eyes-out flashback to the doctor whispering in Martha's ear, and plenty of other contributions but most of all...

...the notion that Martha Jones, possibly the most uninteresting and bland character I've seen on TV in the last 5 years, could become a world-renowned legend in a year.

On the plus side : Martha's leaving for a while at least (thank god! if her character were any less interesting, I'd have contracted narcolepsy while watching season 3) and Kylie's set to star in the Christmas special.

iguana

So nobody else thought that the Doctor lighting the Master's funeral pyre was a bit too Jedi then?

ixoy

iguana wrote:

So nobody else thought that the Doctor lighting the Master's funeral pyre was a bit too Jedi then?

Not at all - funeral pyres have been around a little bit longer than Star Wars..

Sleepy

The funeral pyre was about the only part of the episode I liked tbh. Horrible end to the series!

secret_squirrel

I thought it was fairly good. Not at the top of this season but pretty decent.

Hated John Simms master at first but - grew to like it towards the end. Did like the sane to barking mad in 60 secs routine, thought it was an improvement on the Panto Camp the last few appearances of the master had been.

Thought Martha's transformation over a year of wandering was well thought out and believable. Infact if anything this was her episode both in terms of plot and character development. Her walking away at the end was a big shock.

Very disappointed to see that Catherine Tate is back. Whilst she wasnt as bad as I feared in the Xmas ep, I dont believe she will be able to keep a lid on her usual ****e comedy characters for a whole series.

Mahatma coat

loved the song at the start, bit lame as an endin tho