Can a man & a woman ever be 'just good friends'?

Hrududu

I find all of these "It can never happen, one will always have feelings" to be a bit silly. Maybe this has been the case for the people posting these things. But for them to make such blanket statements about other people is a bit ridiculous and juvenile. Some say "Have you never heard of procreation?" So you jump on every person of the opposite sex you meet? You never meet a person and just dont find them attractive, but otherwise get on with them?

Andy-Pandy

Of course men and women can be 'just' friends. I am in the lucky position where i have a good few very close female friends. Some of them i have fallin for in the past (and the present, god damn her), but a few who i would never look on in a sexual way, even though they could be classed as the more attractive girls in the group. Its all relative, if you dont have many girls as friends, when you do, ya can confuse the signals. If you have loads of female friends, you can just look at them as just that, friends.

MikeHoncho

Sleepy wrote:

I don't get this notion that men and women can never be 'just' friends.

One of my best friends is female. We're close to the point where many people think we're a couple, have slept in the same bed many times etc and honestly there's nothing romantic in it. She's a very attractive girl and sure, tbh, there are times when I look at her and think I'd love to sleep with her but even if she threw herself at me, I know I wouldn't follow through with it. We'd never work in a relationship so there'd just be no point to it.

Do you know 100% that she isnt attracted to you though? It is possible that in this case you are in the role that is usually inhabited by the female ie you like her as a friend she fulfills certain needs that you have emotionally and physically (share a bed on occasion, cuddle up to watch a DVD) but that she secretly wishes the relationship was more. She may never act on it but the feelings could still be there.

To put things into context I used to think the same way that you do up untill very recently but just through certain observations on my group of friends and other groups I know my opinion has changed.

muboop1

im a dude, and my best friend is a girl, iv honestly never thought about her as anything other then a friend, shes very good looking and has guys constantly all over/after her! shes obiously nice due to her being my best friend and i get on better wit her then nearly any1...and yet... no! the idea of me doing anythign with her is just wrong in my mind!
yes u can be just mates... den again my sister is going out with her...well what used to be her best mate n shes with him for nearly 6 years! so i dunno! depends on the person i suppose!

Hermione*

I defnitely believe it's possible to be just friends and also best friends. Some of my closest friends are guys; one of my male friends is one of the first people I turn to in a crisis. I've known him for years, and I know there's nothing more than friendship between us because he's very anti-relationships. Tbh, there's a lot less bitchiness and other crap with my male friends than some of my girl friends.

McGinty

I've been in that situation. It's not good at all! I'm a bit freaked out by it all tbh as I had no clue he had these kind of feelings for me, he never even flirted with me, never mind tried it on.
While part of me is flattered the other half of me is a lil bit P*ssed off....was he ever really "friends" with me or did he always want more? So to answer your question.... no, I don't think it's possible for a man & woman to have a friendship if one of them feels something more than just friendship.

The fact he has said nothing could mean he values the friendship more than his own desire, it is something to consider.

Op in answer to your question I am friends with a guy I really like, I fancy him, would definately have a relationship with him but he doesn't feel the same way, he cares for me and likes me as a person. I have said this to him, that is I am attracted to you and we talked about it briefly. However I accept that he does not feel the same way and I get so much more from the friendship that I accept his decision and set aside my attraction towards him. He is not my best friend but a good friend and we can be intimate on a platonic level and I am happy and satisfied with it. I believe the fact that I told him his feelings means that we both know where to place the boundaries, and the honesty has opened out the friendship. Personally I would never share a bed with a male friend, I don't think it would work for me (maybe because I am just a rampant old goat but that is just me) and neither would my friend.

Sadthruth

I don't know how it got to a stage where everybody talks about this like it's just a rational decision people make and men just say "oh, I'm just friends with this woman, so I'll turn off my biology and flick the switch to platonic".

I don't think people need to switch of their biology, I have fancied other male friends in the past, but I have been aware of my attraction been honest with myself, and worked with those feelings rather than deny them. I believe when you deny them that awkward situation occur eg: drunken slobbering over a friend is one example. Sometimes you can say okay I really fancy this person but I also like them as a friend and I get so much more from the friendship that attraction no longer matters. In other words by accepting it is there you can rise above it.

I do think men and women can be friends if they are honest and open with themselves and each other. I also feel that at times depending on the situation, the individuals and their personality, that they cannot be friends, espicially where one manipulates the other into a romantic situation. Again this has happened to me where a male (and married) friend tried to manipulate me under the guise of friendship so one needs to keep aware of those situations as well. Personally with any friendship you need to state what the boundaries are and then enforce them so that all parties are protected and the friendship can flourish.

Awayindahils

It was weird being intimate with each other.

I'm currently going out with someone who was for a long time a very good friend. I'm not going to go into the jigs and the reels of the whole thing but to put as concisely as possible, I think I liked him when we first met, if I could remember when we first met, reckoned he didn't feel the same and realised I didn't, became very good friends (took about a month, the liked being an intial "yeah I would kinda thing") During the summer spent alot time in contact and saw each other fairly regularily began to relaise that I felt a hell of a lot more than an attraction or friendship and still did nothing about it. Got taken to lunch to hear about his girlfriend and helped him to shop for her. Yada yada time passes, I decide that I can love him as a friend but need to kick him the hell out of my system and then scored his best friend. He found out and stopped talking to me. For 6 weeks.

An awful lot of crap happened in those 6 weeks and we began talking under fairly dire circumstances. We spent about 3 weeks getting to know each other again. This may sound silly but we had hurt each other so much with our actions that we basically destroyed our friendship. There was nothing there in terms of friendship the first night we spoke after the 6 weeks. It was kind of a start over.

Life was at a stressed max with exams and other things and I had given up alot of time since we started talking and he had explained everything (not to do with me but why he had been crap other than me) and was finding it all to hard to cope. My feelings were there and he really needed a friend.

Rang him one night and met him in town and asked for space cos I didnt want to ruin our second attempt at friendship. And I didnt want to ruin my exams. He then told me that he liked me. All very dawsons creek.

I thought that night that we had decided to leave it but within two days we were scoring and within a week were had decided we were going out. Neither of us were sure if it were just a stress thing or something more. 3 and a half months later we're still together.

But we didn't get together when we were great friends. We didnt try to move towards being great friends again when we started talking. To get together and to work together it kinda needed to be a relationship specifically for that. Tagging it on to something else wouldnt have worked for us. This is not to say that we dont have all the benefits of being friends. We know lots of stuff about each other. I wont take any crap from him. He slags the hell out of me still. Occassionally i miss bits of our friendship which wouldnt fit in a relationship. Silly things. But I waaaay prefer going out with him.

Relationships and Friendships have differnet demands. I do think me and women can be friends but I dont think relationships will work out of those friendships if it is just an addition. An add on. A plus. Thats friends with benefits, not bf/gf.

So to acknowledge the quote and the reason why. being intimate with each other for the first time was the most stressful, awkward, god this has to work or we cant out and then ahh thing, ever. It's easy to laugh about it now, but it would have been so much easier in front of a stranger. Someone who meant less to me, had slagged me less, knew less of my fears and was generally a little more anon. Now I wouldn't swap any of those things for what I have.

There was a point and it may have been lost. Men and Women friends- yes.
Men and Women friendship to relationship- more difficult than it may at first appear. Men and Women taking sex onto friendship= relationship? No.

Leila4

MikeHoncho wrote:

I am increasingly of the opinion that it is impossible. Its crazy how many threads there are about it too. I think its easier for women to be friends with men without having any sexy urges but I think its nearly impossible for men to not at least think about what it would be like to hop in the sack with their female mates. I think in most cases when a man and a woman say they are best friends one of them is in love with the other. I think girls will also tell men that they are her best mate as a way of rebuking any possible advances but keeping you close for when they need a shoulder to cry on or a man cuddle. If a man is a girls best friend she probably gets everything emotional she needs from that relationship and gets the sex elsewhere. Just my 2 cents.

I think I would have to agree there. The reason I decided to post the question is because i've a good female friend who is very close mates with a male friend, so much so that they share everything, and are in constant communication every day. This girl is in a long time relationship, and her boyfriend is also friends with this guy, but not on such an intimate level of course, so from time to time this causes a little jealousy.. Anyway, recently i've had the feeling that her feelings about this friend have developed into something stronger, I'm not going to bring it up with her unless she comes to me about it, but it really seems like MikeHoncho got it right in saying that 'If a man is a girls best friend she probably gets everything emotional she needs from that relationship and gets the sex elsewhere' because from what I can make out, the only thing that differentiates between her 'platonic' friendship and her relationship is sex.
It's very interesting to hear the general consensus being that a close male/female 'best' friendship doesn't work, because I would tend to agree that this situation spells trouble, even though I really don't think that either are the type to cheat and that is even IF the feeling was mutual.

MrBaseball

Awayindahils wrote:

I'm currently going out with someone who was for a long time a very good friend. I'm not going to go into the jigs and the reels of the whole thing but to put as concisely as possible, I think I liked him when we first met, if I could remember when we first met, reckoned he didn't feel the same and realised I didn't, became very good friends (took about a month, the liked being an intial "yeah I would kinda thing") During the summer spent alot time in contact and saw each other fairly regularily began to relaise that I felt a hell of a lot more than an attraction or friendship and still did nothing about it. Got taken to lunch to hear about his girlfriend and helped him to shop for her. Yada yada time passes, I decide that I can love him as a friend but need to kick him the hell out of my system and then scored his best friend. He found out and stopped talking to me. For 6 weeks.

An awful lot of crap happened in those 6 weeks and we began talking under fairly dire circumstances. .....................................
..................

This story has me stressed out just from reading it, so I can't imagine how stressful it must be to actually be a member of this relationship. This doesn't sound like any relationship I'd like to find myself in, to be honest. Good luck though! As for my actual contribution to this thread, I made the two "thesadtruth" posts.

I really think that the vast vast majority of male/female friendships of the "we're good friends" variety involve one selfish party and one with feelings for the other.

I have a female friend,just one. We're not "best friends" or anything close to it. We get on well and go for lunch in college, if she has a problem , I'd be willing to help her out. The reason this works I think,and it's a sad thing to admit, is that I have a girlfriend who is much better looking than her, so I'd find it difficult to get hung up on her. She also has had a boyfriend as long as I've known her and they are a very nice couple, so I have no reason to think that I'm ever "leading her on".

That said, I still consider her in a "what if" kind of way.

An ex girlfriend of mine had a "good male friend" when I started going out with her. I'm not the jealous type so I let this be and figured it was pretty innocent. Of course, low and behold, couple of months later, we had a couple of arguments and I got told about how she has much more fun when she's having conversations with him/hanging out with him. She was promptly dumped.

In my younger and more vulnerable years, I became good friends with a girl. We had a lot in common. We could chat away for ages about anything. So, after not so long, I found myself very interested in her. So then, being young, inexperienced and somewhat meek when it came to women I took the common cowards route. Didn't tell her anything, acted like a pal, fell over myself to help her out and asked nothing in return(asked, not wanted). She didn't feel the same at all. This was good for me, one of the best learning experiences of my life, and I'm glad it happened when I was young, so that I could learn "the way of things" and not delude myself about male-female dynamics and live in lala land like so many other people. That said, this experience was quite painful to me, and a situation I decided to avoid in future. This combined with observations of many many other situations, leads me to believe that there is a pattern that these things follow, and that most people who claim that male female "good friendships" with both parties on an equal footing and feeling nothing non-platonic are normal, are just in a stage of youthful denial. Either that or they're women who don't want to admit that maybe all those lovely male friend groupies they keep around and tell all their relationship problems to, might actually have male instincts and an ulterior motive after all.

Drift

MrBaseball wrote:

So, after not so long, I found myself very interested in her. So then, being young, inexperienced and somewhat meek when it came to women I took the common cowards route. Didn't tell her anything, acted like a pal, fell over myself to help her out and asked nothing in return(asked, not wanted).

Have that t-shirt myself too. I think it happens a lot in male female platonic relationships - you get so afraid of losing the friendship that you won't risk doing anything that might make her pissed off at you. All too often the girl in question has no idea at all that the guy feels this way. I'm not sure calling it an ulterior motive is the best description though, its not leading the girl along so you can eventually bone her .... its almost the exact opposite, leading yourself along that things might change in the future.

I can only speak from the guys point of view here - its happened to me and mr baseball and at least 2 other guys I know and has been a learning experience for us all. Maybe the girls could enlighten us on if women find the same problems sometimes?

Leila4

Maybe the girls could enlighten us on if women find the same problems sometimes?[/QUOTE]


Oh without a doubt. It's happened to me in the past and if you read my earlier post you'll see that its actually a female friend of mine its happening to at the moment, the more headwrecking thing for her though is that she is in a committed relationship.

The Bollox

in my experience most, if not all, cross-gender friendships happen because one finds the other attractive, and it will probably go both ways, but initially they won't want to 'get into each other' just be friends. most of my female friends I hang with because I find them in some way attractive. is this shallow? most guys will be in the same situation as me

Agent Smith

Can Men and Women Be Friends? Of Course!
My best friend is Female, and I really really doubt that i'd go out with her, she's wonderfull, but i really dont see her that way.
A lot of my friends are female, Depends a lot on whether you went to a ALL boys school, or a Mixed. Honnestly I think If you went to a single sex school, your more likely to have Friends of the Same sex, then mixed sex schools.

Sleepy

MikeHoncho wrote:

Do you know 100% that she isnt attracted to you though? It is possible that in this case you are in the role that is usually inhabited by the female ie you like her as a friend she fulfills certain needs that you have emotionally and physically (share a bed on occasion, cuddle up to watch a DVD) but that she secretly wishes the relationship was more. She may never act on it but the feelings could still be there.

To put things into context I used to think the same way that you do up untill very recently but just through certain observations on my group of friends and other groups I know my opinion has changed.

Nope, we've actually discussed it at length and joke about the fact that we should just shag and get it over with to keep everyone else happy. I know she thought I was cute when I first met her (and tbh the feeling was mutual). I was going out with someone else at the time, we got to know each other as friends and as we got to know each other realised that while we like each other a lot we want different things than each other in a partner, would be totally sexually incompatible and would frankly be one of those couples it's a pain in the arse to be around because they never stop rowing.

I love this girl like I love most of my best male friends (though given the different dynamics of male/female friendships as opposed to male/male ones I wouldn't need a bottle of whiskey in me to tell her that), I do find her sexually attractive and I'd do almost anything for her and from 5 years of knowing her and talking to her I know as certainly as you can know anything about another person that she feels the same way about me.

If I'd been single when we first met, we'd probably have gotten together, dated for a few months, broken up and ended up as good friends again a few months later but tbh, it's been easier this way.

I have plenty of other female friends that I'd be close to but she's the only one I'd consider to be one of my best friends that I haven't dated at some point in the past.

As someone else pointed out earlier in this thread, I'd personally believe that there are things you can forgive in a close friend that you wouldn't in a partner. Little personality foibles that would drive you mad in someone you wanted to spend the rest of your life with, it's far easier to just accept or agree to disagree on with friends.

Hermione*

Sleepy wrote:

As someone else pointed out earlier in this thread, I'd personally believe that there are things you can forgive in a close friend that you wouldn't in a partner. Little personality foibles that would drive you mad in someone you wanted to spend the rest of your life with, it's far easier to just accept or agree to disagree on with friends.

Definitely agree. There are things about my best (male) friend that annoy me, but I get over them because I want to be friends with him (this guy knows me well enough to know when I'm pissed off over the phone!) and it's not worth having a argument about. But I know in a relationship, these habits would drive me crazy and it'd never last.

I honestly couldn't imagine how one-dimensional life must be if all your friends were of the same sex. Maybe this is how it is for other people,and they're happy about it, but I wouldn't want it for me.

NZdubstar

I only have a couple of female friends. I am not attracted to them in the slightest. You cannot be a normal friend to someone you are attracted to. Hot chicks have lots of male "friends". They just want to be around them because they're hot, and because they want to bang them. Women are quite stupid when it comes to this stuff.

Sleepy

NZdubstar, tbh, I think it's you who's quite stupid when it comes to this stuff. Stupid or young.

Leila4

NZdubstar wrote:

I only have a couple of female friends. .

I'm not surprised

NZdubstar wrote:

Hot chicks have lots of male "friends". They just want to be around them because they're hot, and because they want to bang them. Women are quite stupid when it comes to this stuff. .

I presume the 'they' here is men, and that is an unreal generalisation for you to make. That speaks volumes about how you think and operate, but I can tell you, even coming from a woman, that there are a hell of a lot of decent, genuine men out there. And I am certainly not considered stupid for thinking that.

MrBaseball

Leila4 wrote:

I presume the 'they' here is men, and that is an unreal generalisation for you to make. That speaks volumes about how you think and operate, but I can tell you, even coming from a woman, that there are a hell of a lot of decent, genuine men out there. And I am certainly not considered stupid for thinking that.

Yeah!! You tell him! Decent and genuine men don't feel attracted to women. Decent and genuine men just want platonic friendships with women. Being attracted to women is some sort of negative character trait and is somehow dirty and something to be ashamed of. I hope he feels sufficiently ashamed! I suggest he finds every woman he's ever been attracted to and apologises profusely.

I agree with Leila4, and I for one pity this man, this poor beast who thinks and operates in such an unevolved way! Imagine, to think that men might actually be atracted to women. I suggest you grow up and realise that sex is a sin and realise that male-female platonic friendship is actually the most satisfying thing in the world.

You know, I don't know how humanity got this far, but I'll tell you one thing, it certainly wasn't due to men and women being naturally attracted to each other.

MikeHoncho

Sleepy wrote:

Nope, we've actually discussed it at length and joke about the fact that we should just shag and get it over with to keep everyone else happy. I know she thought I was cute when I first met her (and tbh the feeling was mutual). I was going out with someone else at the time, we got to know each other as friends and as we got to know each other realised that while we like each other a lot we want different things than each other in a partner, would be totally sexually incompatible and would frankly be one of those couples it's a pain in the arse to be around because they never stop rowing.

I love this girl like I love most of my best male friends (though given the different dynamics of male/female friendships as opposed to male/male ones I wouldn't need a bottle of whiskey in me to tell her that), I do find her sexually attractive and I'd do almost anything for her and from 5 years of knowing her and talking to her I know as certainly as you can know anything about another person that she feels the same way about me.

If I'd been single when we first met, we'd probably have gotten together, dated for a few months, broken up and ended up as good friends again a few months later but tbh, it's been easier this way.

I have plenty of other female friends that I'd be close to but she's the only one I'd consider to be one of my best friends that I haven't dated at some point in the past.

As someone else pointed out earlier in this thread, I'd personally believe that there are things you can forgive in a close friend that you wouldn't in a partner. Little personality foibles that would drive you mad in someone you wanted to spend the rest of your life with, it's far easier to just accept or agree to disagree on with friends.

Thats cool man. I think it proves my point though that at least at one time there was a sexual attraction and something could have happened. So at one point you werent "just" friends. I suppose it comes down to what you value more and in your case it is the friendship. I respect that.

Leila4

MrBaseball wrote:

Yeah!! You tell him! Decent and genuine men don't feel attracted to women. Decent and genuine men just want platonic friendships with women. Being attracted to women is some sort of negative character trait and is somehow dirty and something to be ashamed of. I hope he feels sufficiently ashamed! I suggest he finds every woman he's ever been attracted to and apologises profusely.

I agree with Leila4, and I for one pity this man, this poor beast who thinks and operates in such an unevolved way! Imagine, to think that men might actually be atracted to women. I suggest you grow up and realise that sex is a sin and realise that male-female platonic friendship is actually the most satisfying thing in the world.

You know, I don't know how humanity got this far, but I'll tell you one thing, it certainly wasn't due to men and women being naturally attracted to each other.

Okay, I've no idea what to make of this post! All i was saying in my own post is that NZdubstar was insinuating that the only reason guys befriend women is to 'bang them', and i don't for a second agree that all men are that shallow or that all men have ulterior motives...

MrBaseball

Leila4 wrote:

Okay, I've no idea what to make of this post! All i was saying in my own post is that NZdubstar was insinuating that the only reason guys befriend women is to 'bang them', and i don't for a second agree that all men are that shallow or that all men have ulterior motives...

Is it really shallow though? Or is it actually the most natural thing in the world, whereas the belief that men and women can just function perfectly well and problem free as platonic friends is a massive denial of human nature.

You know I'm not even totally against male female friendships. I get on with the women I work with and we chat and have a laugh during the day. They're about 15 years older than me though, so I think it's not the same. I have a female friend in college and we have nice conversations and help each other out when we can. Outside of college we sometimes email each other. That is the extent of our friendship. We're both in relationships. The thing that I can't fathom is these "best friend" kind of situations. You know the type. Going to the cinema together, going out for meals together. Emotional conversations and sharing(usually her) personal issues. You know, those "we're like a couple who don't have sex!!!" kind of "friendships". Even "close friends" is something I find hard to get my head around. I'm a man. When I'm in a relationship, like right now, I can chat away to any woman and that's the end of it, because I don't need anything from her. My needs are being met already. When I'm single, I would talk to that same woman and think "yeah, she seems ok, maybe if we talk some more it'll result in sex!!". I can't speak for women, but the impression I sometimes get is that even when single, women would like their sexual partners to fulfil certain non-physical criteria before they'll have sex with them. For a single man, the woman just has to be decent looking and I would bet that most single men wouldn't say no. Some of you enlightened modern men out there can feel free to come in here and tell me how I'm wrong about that and when you're single you actually wouldn't just have sex with a goodlooking female if you weren't "compatible" on some deep level.

Leila4

Well thanks for making a bit more sense Mr Baseball.
No, i don't think men who have female friends and find them attractive are shallow, Yes, it's the most natural thing in the world, but NZDubstar's post stating that the only reason men befriend 'hot chicks' is because they want to have sex with them is insinuating that all men are shallow. A lot of men, judging by the comments here, get a lot more out of a platonic friendship with a woman than just seeing it as a means to an end.

irish_bob

i believe it is possible for women to have male friends who are just that , FRIENDS , the only thing is , theese are usually men who are less masculine and they would not want to bed anyway
women are by and large more attracted to men who they would not have a girly chat with
just telling it like it is

Kell

thesadtruth wrote:

If you're a female with a single male friend. Unless you're ugly he's probably at least considering it. I don't know how it got to a stage where everybody talks about this like it's just a rational decision people make and men just say "oh, I'm just friends with this woman, so I'll turn off my biology and flick the switch to platonic". Just another example of the denial of human nature in modern society I guess.

In conclusion, the combination of spineless men and selfish women who turn a blind eye to the obvious is a bad thing.'

LOL. Spot on. I was of the persuasion that male and females could be friends and best friends, sadly no longer. And, BTW, women also fall for men a lot more than they let on.

I think it accurate to say that, in a lot of cases, men and women stay friends so long as men suppress the desire to shag the woman. Where the shagging can be had, and the relationship maintained without romantic clingy strings, even better again. Does require a level of maturity sadly lacking in most people.

K-

girloperfection

Really dont think men and women can ever just be friends without one having stronger feelings for the other. The worst is trying to stay friends with an ex, me and my ex have decided to stay friends after breaking up a month ago, he seems to have gotten over me so quick and im still struggling even though i broke up with him. Im happy being his friend as i would rather that than never talk to him again but its a friendship where i have feelings for him and he practically has none for me.

Plateau

girloperfection wrote:

Really dont think men and women can ever just be friends without one having stronger feelings for the other. The worst is trying to stay friends with an ex, me and my ex have decided to stay friends after breaking up a month ago, he seems to have gotten over me so quick and im still struggling even though i broke up with him. Im happy being his friend as i would rather that than never talk to him again but its a friendship where i have feelings for him and he practically has none for me.

Agree with all that.

If the guy and girl aren't attracted to each other, but still get on (given that a lot of attraction is the 'getting on' bit), then maybe it's possible to be friends. But don't be surprised if when either of you get involved with a certain significant other that things change, and you are no longer as close.

If one has feelings for the other, then sooner or later something will happen, and the friendship as you know it will be over. Maybe you start going out, or maybe there is a drunken incident/conversation that puts paid to it.

If you used to go out, then things can be fine right up until the time one of you find someone else. Then don't be surprised if the other person becomes more distant, changes all of their opinions and views, or starts arguing with you constantly, or all of the above. This scenario can often end in tears, and can even colour your happy memories of the other person.

I'd say it is very unlikely that a man and a women can become/remain good friends on a long term basis. Very unlikely.

Personally I like to remain friends with ex-girlfriends, but that demands a period of physical separation, patience, and quite a bit of understanding. Also you have to make sure neither of you get any 'ideas'. Becoming quite close again can be dangerous.

Wibbs

Plateau wrote:

I'd say it is very unlikely that a man and a women can become/remain good friends on a long term basis. Very unlikely.

I agree with a lot of what you're saying, but I have to say I have two women friends. One very close and there's never been anything sexual with either of them. They're like my sisters. Now if you saw either of these women you would say no way, but it's true. Now I can see why men would go for them. I really can, they're both good looking women, but for me it's kinda like jazz music(bear with me), I can see the technical side, I can see why people may love it, but it does fúck all for me. One of these women I know for over ten years. We've been through hard times, good times, breakups, love etc, and have been there for each other just like my male mates. You do get a different perspective though and they both can be very over protective, but thanks to them I can see some women coming a mile off.:D It goes both ways though. The amount of muppet avoidance advice I've provided over the years......