Lands Preserved

Keelan

johngalway wrote:

Sounds like a proper set up alright Terrier, I've seen some of your work elsewhere :cool:

I think there's a lad in this thread bitching about my bitching, taking it kinda personal like. Like I said I was talking about my local club and independent shooters. In essence what he's (sorry haven't gone back looking for a name) saying is the mirror of what I am, so if yer calling me anything watch out where the other 4 fingers are pointing. That's all I got to say on that subject

Well said John.
Terrier, thanks for the kind comments.:)

Keelan.

bunny shooter

Bond-007 wrote:

How come some clubs have a no rifle policy? I must get on to the NARGC about that.

The clubs I'm in actively promote rifle use for rabbits and foxes

bunny shooter

Banjax,

"previous" includes but is not limited to shooting gun club preserves while not a member of the club, shooting over preserved club land/s, shooting stocked ponds, upsetting landowners ..............

Do they reckon shotguns aren't dangerous at all ?

bunny shooter

Terrier wrote:

Clubs that take the approach that only members who can benefit the club or are relations of exiting members will find out over the next decade or so how this policy with see the demise of there clubs!
My own club was like that for a time, I myself "was a blow in" had no land and only for the persistent of two friends who were members I would still be looking for membership..
When I joined the club membership had fallin from 49 to just 16!
I went to every monthly meeting for two years listen to a lot of crap and infighting before I was put forward to the committee as Treasurer, my mate took the Chairman position and it was at this point we decide we needed to pull the club forward.
Since then we have implemented a

- New constitution and Rules (7 pages long very clear and very precise!)
- A clear membership application process..
- Outside membership - People from outside club boundries
- New Member Information pack - this is our latest project, set up to help new members, includes constitution, rules, firearm safety, beating procedures, contact and we are working on OSI maps of all club lands and land owners names..
- Vermin Control Policy
- Pheasant Release Program (Our first year)
- Annual Club Social

The to do list..
- Charity Clay Shoot
- Increase pheasant release program to 200 birds per year.

Been a 4 year process but we are getting new membership from both local and non-local … about 30 members in all.. It would want to be something very serious for someone not to get membership, we have members who just hunt pheasant & ducks, some who just do clay shooting, some just hunt deer and one who is a target shooter.. To me the term "Gun Club" does not limit it to shotgun game shooting only.

Keelan & JohnGalway if ye only lived near me.. i've seen the damage ye boys do to vermin and ye would be a fantastic addition to any club..

This is what a club is meant to be !!!!!

bunny shooter

Keelan wrote:

Well said John.
Terrier, thanks for the kind comments.:)

Keelan.

Sounds like clubs aren't the only place cliques exist !

Banjax

Bunny

Some people don't want to be in a club, and some people can't, even though they want to.

Despite what you've read here, despite the experiences people have related to you, you don't seem to want to accept either as fact.

Other than your club(s), what do you accept?

bunny shooter

Banjax wrote:

Bunny

Some people don't want to be in a club, and some people can't, even though they want to.

Despite what you've read here, despite the experiences people have related to you, you don't seem to want to accept either as fact.

Other than your club(s), what do you accept?

I accept that the world is round (pobably, well nobody has fallen off yet ?), I need to win the Lotto, I need more gun licences,

Facts, interpertations of opinions portrayed as the truth.......in order to convince another that my opinion is the right one.

Voltaire said, I shall paraphrase, can't remember exact quote, I might not agree with you're opinion, but I will defend to the bitter end you're right to it

"Marriage is an institution, but who wants to live in an institution" ........ Groucho Marx

Now that is a fact !

Banjax

Well, I suppose when you have nothing of substance to say for yourself, you can always go butchering the words of others.

What is kind of amusing, is your use of Voltaire's phrase. It's essentially a verbalisation of the freedom of choice and the need to defend it.

Your previous posts show a smug anticipation of the further degradation of the freedom to choose. The only thing you are interested in defending is your club.

jaycee

Banjax wrote:

Well, I suppose when you have nothing of substance to say for yourself, you can always go butchering the words of others.

What is kind of amusing, is your use of Voltaire's phrase. It's essentially a verbalisation of the freedom of choice and the need to defend it.

Your previous posts show a smug anticipation of the further degradation of the freedom to choose. The only thing you are interested in defending is your club.

Lads and ladies ,

Naturally the final say as to who shoots on a section of land rests with the landowner , or more accurately the controller of the shooting rights there.
It is possible to lease those rights from the landowner , perhaps for a token fee. The fact that it generally not done here is a reflection of the goodwill and cooperation that usually exists between the local community , the landowner and the shooting club.

Given the way life is changing in Ireland it may become necessary for clubs to try to make arrangements like that.

The vast majority of shooting clubs that I'm aware of are made up of ordinary decent people who come together out of a common interest to improve the shooting facilitys in their area. I've encountered no evidence of snobbish or elitist behavior and attitudes , on the contrary they are usually open to new shooters and members.

Existing clubs and their members can sometimes invest quite a a lot of time and money in improving game numbers and controlling vermin and whatever .
They may have spent years in developing a good relationship with their landowners and making sure that no damage is done, empty shells collected, gates closed..etc.

With that in mind it isn't too surprising if they are less than delighted to see someone swan in , who has contributed neither time or money to their efforts and whose field craft and shooting practices are an unknown quantity.
It may be legal in most cases , but they don't have to like it, and since some of us are not blessed with the ability to be diplomatic at all times , unpleasant exchanges can take place. Regrettable , but it happens.

I wouldn't condemn someone therefore for defending their position as a club member it is their right to do so . I know plenty of non-club shooters who are very cooperative , pleasant and safe shooters , they have made it clear to local club reps that they only wish to bag the odd bunny and respect the no-shoot areas. I also know some who insist on shooting anything that moves in blatant disregard to the work and wishes of others. these mavericks give everyone a bad name..and no sportsman or woman would want anything to do with them.

I disagree that anyone is "Smug" about potential restrictions and demands on shooters in the new regulations or the effect it may have on our freedoms .
They are a very real threat to us all and one effect of joining an affiliated club is to lend weight to the voice of the shooting lobby and help to preserve the rights we have so recently gained.

Like it or not , club membership, safe storage of firearms...etc is going to become a requirement and pre-condition for firearms ownership in most cases according the recent rewriting of the firearms act.

Anyone who doesn't realise that needs to wake up and smell the coffee.

Banjax

Jaycee

For every exemplary club of the kind you hold in high esteem, there is another which you never would.
This point alone will raise serious difficulties if membership of a club is a prerequisite for owning a firearm.

The sporting rights to any lands are not always held by the landowner. They may belong to an old landlord dating from the time before the land commission, lord such and such and his heirs. A look at the land folio will tell who has them in terms of law.
While these rights are hardly ever observed (and quite rightly in my opinion, I'm damned if some inbred pseudo-aristocrat has any say about what happens on my land), a contract where monies are paid for those rights would bring this legal issue into stark relief.

I am not condemning anyone for what they hold dear. I do take issue with exclusivity, especially when it's based on nothing more than an advanced herd instinct.

As for the CJB, we shall have to wait and see. I am neither asleep, nor have had a breakdown in my olfactory senses that prevents me from realising change is in the offing. But neither can I read the future, be it written in legalese or not.

And neither can anyone else.

jaycee

Banjax wrote:

Jaycee

For every exemplary club of the kind you hold in high esteem, there is another which you never would.

This point alone will raise serious difficulties if membership of a club is a prerequisite for owning a firearm.

Logically that suggests that 50% of clubs are dysfunctional , I find that figure hard to believe.Even if it were , accurate , there is nothing stopping the poor unfortunate members from simply quitting and joining a good club.

The sporting rights to any lands are not always held by the landowner. They may belong to an old landlord dating from the time before the land commission, lord such and such and his heirs. A look at the land folio will tell who has them in terms of law.
While these rights are hardly ever observed (and quite rightly in my opinion, I'm damned if some inbred pseudo-aristocrat has any say about what happens on my land), a contract where monies are paid for those rights would bring this legal issue into stark relief.

You seem to think that when I mention sporting rights , it is the exclusive preserve of the so called "Landed elite" , not so . There are many instances where the fishing rights to a particular stretch are leased. Then we have the situation with Coilte and deer stalking , a somewhat similar process.
Try fishing or shooting on that ground and you will likely find pretty soon that there is indeed a legal standing to their rights .
I can't agree that it a good thing that anyone's legal rights are ignored , if you find yourself in an unfortunate situation with an issue such as that you have the option of legal action through the courts.

I am not condemning anyone for what they hold dear. I do take issue with exclusivity, especially when it's based on nothing more than an advanced herd instinct.

Well we agree on that , but I haven't seen any evidence of it.
You however may have a specific case in mind and I can't comment on that.

As for the CJB, we shall have to wait and see. I am neither asleep, nor have had a breakdown in my olfactory senses that prevents me from realising change is in the offing. But neither can I read the future, be it written in legalese or not.

I am referring to the guidelines as published with regard to the new CJB and specifically the the firearms legislation contained therein. Very little , if any precognition is required to make an assessment of the likely outcome.
Further evidence of the slightly gloomy prospects may be taken from the fact that, of the aspects of the new act that are enacted they are almost all concerned with restricting or placing restrictions on shooters, while the ones permitting additional freedoms and permissions have not.

I refer to the lack of movement on the training licences and reloading to name but two, definitions of requirements for the safe storage of firearms are also missing , while the power to make it up as they go along is placed in the hands of the authorities .

And neither can anyone else.

Perhaps not , but if it walks like a duck , quacks like a duck and looks like a duck ...It's probably a duck . Especially if for over 30 years it has proven to be a duck too.

Banjax

Jaycee

Regarding good and bad clubs, the situation is far from as rosy as you tend to paint it, and telling people who cannot join those clubs is tantamount to telling them to eat cake. It is not so simple as that after all.

Where you get your interpretation of sporting rights is unknown to me. However, you'll find that nearly every land folio has an indication of where these rights lie. And very often, they lie with those people who owned the land perhaps 3 or 4 or more owners ago. The current heirs may have nothing at all to do with the land anymore or even be aware of those rights. It is not a case of sporting rights being the preserve of a "landed elite", it's just the case that the landed elite were the original (as far as law is concerned) owners.
So where a landowner may give permission to a club to shoot/hunt over his or her lands, that permission may in fact be groundless in a legal sense, as the sporting rights are not his to give in the first place.
Coilte/public/state owned land usually dates from the time of the land commissions, and as far as I know, most of the sporting rights lie with the state.

The CJB and legislation therein has definite points that require no guesswork, I agree with you there. But I've read little in it that appears to affect me personally to the point where I would take exception (fat lot of good it would do me even if I did). The effect of this on someone new to shooting is another thing entirely though, I'll give you that.

As for my wait and see attitude, it still holds. I've done a lot of shooting in the last 30 years, and I think I'll do as much in the time that is left to me, CJB or no.

jaycee

The CJB and legislation therein has definite points that require no guesswork, I agree with you there. But I've read little in it that appears to affect me personally to the point where I would take exception (fat lot of good it would do me even if I did). The effect of this on someone new to shooting is another thing entirely though, I'll give you that.

Well, God forbid that if through a change in personnel an incoming anti-firearms "Super" arrives in your area and decides that his interpretation of "Secure and safe storage" includes a concrete vault with monitored alarm, remote camera monitoring and a security patrol.
Sounds ridiculous doesn't it ...? Yet under the new firearms act the discretion to decide on the level of security is totally in his hands .
You (and others) might just take exception to that , I take exception to the fact that the clause is in there in the first place and that it could happen.
However unlikely it seems ,there is nothing to prevent it, and that is just one of the multitude of issues that need ironing out.

As for my wait and see attitude, it still holds. I've done a lot of shooting in the last 30 years, and I think I'll do as much in the time that is left to me, CJB or no.

In the last 30 years you won't have been doing a whole lot of Pistol shooting or target shooting with large calibre rifles in Ireland then . If people like the NARGC (And their affiliated clubs ) had just sat on the fence , you wouldn't have the choice to do it in the present or the future either.
Teamwork and cohesive opposition is one of the few ways we have as sportsmen and women to bring about change in our favor.

Have a chat with any gundealer about importing ,purchasing and licensing a Benelli M3 semi auto Shotgun and you'll realise that the hands who hold the reins of power haven't excluded shotguns from their influence either.

Clare gunner

Jaycee,
I have seen a couple of new Benelli 90s around here for sale.They must be coming back in again???

newby.204

chap i know just got a licence for a Benelli M4 super 90

Banjax

Jaycee

I doubt I'd ever be asked to do such a thing. If I had to go to that trouble, I may as well apply for a dealers certificate. My current security arrangements satisfy my gardai and should continue to do so, no matter how hard you wag your finger at me.

The amount and nature of the shooting I have done and shall continue to do is hardly of consequence. My sport is game, vermin and clays, and I don't feel any less of a sportsman for not having an inclination towards pistols or full bore target shooting. Nor, as I have said previously, do I have any issue with the NARGC, I consider it a fine organisation, but this has more to do with Des Crofton than anything else.

I support every kind of shooting sport and would do all that I could to defend our sports, no matter if it was pistols or rifles or whatever.

I have no need of a benelli M3, whatever that is, so I shan't be trying to source one. Having said that, I see no shortage of semi-auto shotguns in the firearm dealers I've been to of late. I had an old Browning auto many years ago and never had any trouble getting a cert for it.

Remmy

Banjax

A benelli M3 is a convertible shotgun capable of switching from an autoloader to pump action without any tools just a turn of a bar mechanism near the action.

I find its easier to see a use for things when you actually now what they are.

Remmy

jaycee

Jaycee,
I have seen a couple of new Benelli 90s around here for sale.They must be coming back in again???

Hi CG ,

Maybe , the M3 seems to be an "Evil thing" though , can't understand why.
Think it falls under the "Idontlikethelookathat" rule

bunny shooter

Banjax wrote:

Well, I suppose when you have nothing of substance to say for yourself, you can always go butchering the words of others.

What is kind of amusing, is your use of Voltaire's phrase. It's essentially a verbalisation of the freedom of choice and the need to defend it.

Your previous posts show a smug anticipation of the further degradation of the freedom to choose. The only thing you are interested in defending is your club.

Oh, how ill informed you really are ........ freedom of speech I believe ? not choice !

bunny shooter

Banjax you try explaining to the landowner that he/she doesn't own and control the shooting rights on his/her own land ! You'd get a short sharp answer I'd say ! It's this type of bulls..t that alienates landowners. Bet you've tried this line with a landowner/s, haven't you ? Maybe this is why you're local club don't want you?

bunny shooter

Banjax wrote:

Nor, as I have said previously, do I have any issue with the NARGC, I consider it a fine organisation, but this has more to do with Des Crofton than anything else.

People like you always have an excuse for not joining the local club....I don't like Des Crofton, I don't like the Chairman, I don't like the Secretrary etc. etc. More like you don't like to pay towards the game you shoot !!!!!!! Especilly if there are fools in clubs paying for it.....:mad:

Clare gunner

Jaycee,
Well if the Saiga 12 and molot Veper12 shotguns are getting in no problems[on special order tho]and they DO look like AKs.Cant see why the Benelli is getting such a hard time???This still wouldnt be knocking down to a certain dealer,who supplies the CIA/FSB/MI5 and other men in black types when they happen to need firepower when they drop into Ireland????;)

Sparks

Banjax wrote:

I doubt I'd ever be asked to do such a thing. If I had to go to that trouble, I may as well apply for a dealers certificate.

I think you'd find that if your security requirements were upped, that so would those for a dealer's licence - and further, "social" dealer's licences (where you get the dealer's licence just to have more ammunition) are no longer permitted - you have to show an actual commercial business arrangement to get one.

My current security arrangements satisfy my gardai and should continue to do so, no matter how hard you wag your finger at me.

It's not about the fingerwagging or about the excellent relationship you have with your current gardai. JC's point, and it's one I agree with, is that your current gardai change. They get promoted and moved and new people come in to replace them. Or they get a set of "guidelines" from the commissioner (which are guidelines in the same way that a brick wall is a "guideline" for you not to drive in that direction :rolleyes: ). And then the atmosphere changes and it's "I'm sorry about this Banjax, but the new rules mean we do need to inspect the safe and we're not allowed tell you when (but I wouldn't go out on friday night if you know what I mean)" and you're stuck in on a friday night escorting a garda through your house on an official inspection so you can have a licence for an air pistol.

The amount and nature of the shooting I have done and shall continue to do is hardly of consequence.

Doesn't matter.

My sport is game, vermin and clays

Doesn't matter.

, and I don't feel any less of a sportsman for not having an inclination towards pistols or full bore target shooting.

Doesn't matter.

Nor, as I have said previously, do I have any issue with the NARGC, I consider it a fine organisation, but this has more to do with Des Crofton than anything else.

Doesn't matter.

I support every kind of shooting sport and would do all that I could to defend our sports, no matter if it was pistols or rifles or whatever.

Doesn't really matter.

I have no need of a benelli M3, whatever that is, so I shan't be trying to source one.

Doesn't matter.

Having said that, I see no shortage of semi-auto shotguns in the firearm dealers I've been to of late.

Doesn't matter.

I had an old Browning auto many years ago and never had any trouble getting a cert for it.

Doesn't matter.

Look, I'm sorry if this seems repetitive or down or dismissive. But unfortunately for all of us, it's accurate. With the measures put in place in the CJA2006, none of what you've cited above actually matters in any way. It doesn't matter that you only shoot a little, blind eyes don't get turned to us, not when the press is jumping up and down over gun crime. It doesn't matter that there are lots of shotguns out there now, there were lots of pistols out there in 1971. It doesn't matter that you had no trouble with licences before; people had no troubles with pistol licences in '71. And it doesn't matter whether or not you support shooting sports/sport shooting, because the law has been passed.

Banjax

Bunny

Try reading my posts instead of knee jerking the first thought out of your head onto the screen.

First off, I was stating the case of sporting rights. Whether you like it or not, that is the case. And if you had read my other posts you would see that I do not agree with it. I would no more tell someone else what to do with his or her own lands than I would tell you what to do in your garden.

"Bet you've tried this line with a landowner/s, haven't you ? Maybe this is why you're local club don't want you?"

I have never been inclined to join my local gun club. I have been asked many yeras ago but declined. I have my own lands, the lands of my brother, numerous cousins and friends lands where I can shoot if I wish.

"People like you always have an excuse for not joining the local club....I don't like Des Crofton, I don't like the Chairman, I don't like the Secretrary etc. etc. More like you don't like to pay towards the game you shoot !!!!!!! Especilly if there are fools in clubs paying for it"

I like Des Crofton fine, I think he's a great asset to all shooting and hunting sports. And once again, if you read my posts, you'd understand that.
The game I shoot, if it is on my land, is mine to shoot. I havent had a tagged bird shot on my land in 15 years.

Read what's been posted properly, and you'll see you are wrong in just about everything you have said about me. And stop taking it personally, it's not all about you.

bunny shooter

You were asked to join club but declined, ya, thought so, we have a lot of you type around here too, and we have a few names for them too.

Shooting rights are a part of the sporting rights you refer to

You're family members obviously own the shooting (and sporting) rights to their land ?

I stand by what I said

Banjax

Bunny

Shooting rights are the same as sporting rights, if you don't understand what I've written I can't make you any smarter.

In actual fact, neither I nor my relations own the sporting rights to our lands. Not that it makes much difference to me. The issue of sporting rights came up when Jaycee was discussing the option of payment for the rights to shoot over someones land. If you care to go back and read it you'll see I'm sure.

I think (I'm not 100% sure) anyone who gives a gun club permission to shoot over the land is asked if they would like to be a member. That's why I was asked.

So what names exactly do you have for people who give your club permission but have no interest in joining your club?

Banjax

Sparks

I sent you a pm.

But if nothing matters, why bother to discuss anything?

Sparks

Banjax, some of us actually do spend time off the forums. But, now that I'm back, I'll answer you. You're not to blame for the CJB, not personally, not any more than every other shooter out there who didn't bother to complain as it was being drafted.

Now it's law, however, and you appear to be arguing that it won't really affect you (and you're not the only one). And that's a pain in the neck, because when it does affect you (and it will), there'll be lots of complaining and griping and moaning and, well, not much change.

I've sat through enough meetings of shooters in quiet, out-of-the-way rooms who indignantly lament their unfair treatment (which they don't follow up on with lots of time or money - and the first is of far more use, by the way). Yet whenever you lay out what has to be done to fix the problem, noone seems to hear you. You say we have to cultivate our PR image so that we can lobby public opinion to our side - and it's poo-poo'd, or old men who "know how the real world works" try to explain how it can't possibly work in Ireland (ignoring the inconvienent fact that is has in the past, many times). They explain patiently that we can't win medals on the world stage (to which I believe that Derek Burnett and David Malone and Nicholas Flood and a few others might react with some surprise). They explain that even if we did, we wouldn't get anything out of it (ignoring, again, the carding grants and high performance funding from the sports council that the above chaps picked up). The hunters amongst them explain that the target shooters are a bunch of elitist snobs who'd sell hunting down the river in a heartbeat (ignoring the fact that they both shoot with the same calibres and rifles), and the target shooters amongst them explain that hunters already did with things like visitors permits (ignoring the fact that only a few clubs have been trying to get in visitors for international shoots). They'll explain that the lack of young shooters is a problem, and then that the young shooters are a problem because they won't invest enough money in the sport (ignoring the fact that they spend more in one night out than they donate to their clubs in a year, whereas the amount young shooters donate tends to cost them a lot more than a night out).

Ten years, I've been seeing that. So I've had that part rubbed a little raw at this stage, and to see yourself coming in and explaining to us that the CJA won't affect things that badly and that clubs aren't doing enough for you, well, you're triggering an allergic reaction at this point

Happily, it's not as bad as that in all parts of the country. I can list a dozen names without even trying, people who constantly sink their time and money and sweat and blood and tears into a sport, and who are rarely getting anything out of it. I can think of three or four clubs that are out to improve themselves and whose members push towards that goal all the time. I can think of a dozen junior shooters who've pushed my part of the sport to new heights in this country, and a few more who've pushed other parts just as far, and one or two who've pushed further and given us something to aim for. So I'm not all doom and gloom, but I'm definitely not up for listening to "oh, we're allright, it won't be that bad, stop fretting" about a piece of legislation that grants the Minister the power to shut down shooting in Ireland overnight without dail oversight or legal means of appeal. You think 1972 was bad? Then you've not read the CJA, or you've not understood it.

Our man in Havana

a piece of legislation that grants the Minister the power to shut down shooting in Ireland overnight without dail oversight or legal means of appeal.

Surely a constitutional challenge would still be available to challenge this?

Sparks

On what grounds?
It's not like we have an enumerated right in the Irish constitution to keep and bear arms.