Ferrari Stepney / Coughlan case

steviec

So there was a criminal investigation revolving around Ferrari's now former chief mechanic stealing top secret data from Ferrari and now the police have found that data has turned up in McLaren's chief designer, Mike Coughlan's home.

Needless to say McLaren have suspended Coughlan to distance themselves from the case but it will be interesting to see how things develop. At the moment there's no evidence to suggest anything other than Stepney and Coughlan acting alone but you have to wonder what the incentive could be. Stepney would hardly steal data from his own team without being paid to do so, and Coughlan hardly went to the trouble of paying out of his own pocket. And I doubt he just liked to look at Ferrari documents for a hobby - you have to wonder if any Ferrari blueprints ended up as parts on the McLaren car. And if that happened, even without other team member's knowledge, surely it would lead to penalties being applied.

It'll be interesting to see how this develops in the coming days but either way, with criminal investigations and both teams being down a senior staff member, this can't be helping either of their progress on car development right now.

zeris

One of the rumors is that it is about the whole Ferrari/BMW movable floor controversy from earlier this year.

But where does the white dust at Monaco fit it.

Stepney and Coughlan have worked together in the past. I don't know if they are friends.

The plans where found at Coughlan's home so that gives McLaren plausible deniability.

Why would Coughlan pay money if money changed hands? Is his job at McLaren at risk and he needed a big win?

There are rumors of some of the technical people at Ferrari are anxious waiting for their final work positions when Brawn returns. Is this related?

Is this related to the failure of the Ferrari wind tunnel? How often do wind tunnels fail?

Where do the rumors of Stepney going to Honda fit in all this?

Questions, questions, questions...

Jonny Arson

Still too many unanswered questions at this stage but.....

this looks like it is going to be EXPLOSIVE

I do not believe for one second that Stepney and Coughlan were working alone on this.............

pburns

Jonny Arson wrote:

Still too many unanswered questions at this stage but.....

this looks like it is going to be EXPLOSIVE

I do not believe for one second that Stepney and Coughlan were working alone on this.............

Well it's open policy for teams to send 'spotters' to stand outside an opponents pit garage during a GP weekend. This is hardly comparable to full on industrial esponage of course.

Maybe i'm naive but I just can't see the mighty McLaren International - especially Ron Dennis - getting their hand dirty with this kind of illegal behavior.

I reckon it may have something to do with 'inside info' Mclaren received regarding the 'movable floor' saga earlier in the year. Stepney was a disgruntled employee working out his contract at that point...

I don't think it could have been something that actually influenced the design of the '07 McLaren. Could it?!?!?!?

endplate

The white powder in the fuel tank is believed to be detergent. Stepney is obviously a very disgruntled employee. I hear he's preparing to sue Ferrari for deformation of charactor wonder how that will go?

It's also rumored that McLaren removed a part from their cars in France which aided cooling and as a result the revs had to be limited hence the possible poor preformance. What was this part if this is true was it a Ferrari copied part??

thegoth

Interesting point. The only other reasons they would have removed it was that the part was unreliable or that it was affecting aero performance more than the loss in engine power

BANZAI_RUNNER

well now it appears that the documents that coughlan had in his possession would have enabled him to build , and test an F2007, so where as ron denis has said that no intellectual property from ferrari is on the mclarens , that may well be true, but the documents include information that could be used to design, engineer, build, check, test, develop and/or run a 2007 Ferrari Formula One car. whats better than having an actual F2007 to work on , to see what makes it tick and then you just engineer your car to be better, all we can do now is wait until the FIA hearing on july 26th ans see what happens to mclaren.......

zeris

McLaren are going to have to prove that these where plans for a RA108 and not a MP4-22.

Oblomov

The whole scenario has rather a pungent smell about it.. Consider:

A women walks into a copy shop and asks for a 780 page document to be copied and put onto a CD... question number one, what language was the document in?
The worker realises that these are 'Top Secret' documents, How? what sparks this sudden sense of public concern? How did he or she know there were genuine and not some prank?

How do you find the telephone number of Ferrari, be it in the UK or abroad?
Who do you ask for when you have got through?

Or is this the only copy shop in the UK ( Hersham, actually) who have a direct line to Ferrari Italy.

The documents are dated 2007 and this is 2008, why the concern?

Of course, the verdict is now known but ...

thegoth

Todays date is July 30th 2007. Its not 2008

asian-monkey

Session 2005 was great for McLaren. Loved the way Kimi throw that Benz all over the circuit.

Session 2006 was crap. They just didn't have the fire power to answer neither Ferrari nor Renult.

Session 2007 suddenly McLaren is the next big thing. I was woundering why.. I might have the answer now..

Something wrong with McLaren.. Montoya left (becase he knew Hamilton was coming)... Kimi Left.. because he was underpaid...

I don't know why Alonso joined McLaren though... did he knew something we didn't? Because that McLaren was so slow in 2006 that even if McLaren paid him more then Renult he wouldn't have taken it because that will keep him off the Championship Title but he did..

There's lots to this... but i will just enjoy the Qualifying and the Race and hope the best for my best driver (KIMI). And i really wish Michael wasn't around.

muckwarrior

asian-monkey wrote:

Because that McLaren was so slow in 2006 that even if McLaren paid him more then Renult he wouldn't have taken it because that will keep him off the Championship Title but he did..

Alonso signed for Maclaren in 2005.

nikimere

I don't get all the fuss...

Ok say McLaren had all Ferrari's documents and were able to build an exact replica Ferrari. They have obviously done some extra development or something that has pushed them ahead of the Ferrari's. They are still the better team at the moment...
The reason they are winning is not because they copied Ferrari, if they simply copied the Ferrari surely the McLaren and Ferrari's could be much more equally matched?
McLaren have developed their car better, end of story. Even if they did steal data/drawings/documents they've still done a better job than Ferrari with that information.

thegoth

That entire post defies logical and any bit of common sense

FrostyJack

I don't get all the fuss

If I was to steal money on you and spend it in a better than you were planning does that make it less of a crime? Millions of pound is thrown into R and D by each time, if McLaren got even one idea from the ferrari car it gave them an unfair = illegal advantage + saved them millions. This case is a sham, I cannot believe Mclaren got away with it, but as things are going now for Mclaren, I wouldn't be surprised if they ran over Bernie Ecclestone on the street in their F1 car and got away with it.

nikimere

FrostyJack wrote:

If I was to steal money on you and spend it in a better than you were planning does that make it less of a crime? Millions of pound is thrown into R and D by each time, if McLaren got even one idea from the ferrari car it gave them an unfair = illegal advantage + saved them millions.

So you think McLaren are doing better because they saved a few quid??
Ferrari have an unlimited budget.... Money isn't really an object.

I could have worded my 1st post a bit better, but my point still stands. I don't think McLaren are going better than Ferrari because they saw (if they actually saw it) the Ferrari documents.
Fair enough one of their staff had it in their possession but that doesn't mean any of it found its way onto the McLaren car.
McLaren is still the better package, so obviously they've done some of their own development that has pushed them above Ferrari.
You might not think it but I'm not actually a McLaren fan, i do lean more to the Ferrari camp.
I just don't like jumping on the bandwagon and bashing McLaren when obviously they have legitimately created a better package.

FrostyJack

Ferrari have an unlimited budget.... Money isn't really an object.

No one has an unlimited money in F1, yes they are well to do but, if they had unlimited money they could have every top guy in their field, 200 wind tunnels, 200,000 members of staff!

when obviously they have legitimately created a better package.

Obviously? How is it obvious? I doubt your an engineer or from a technical background (not a slagging) because to me it is so apparent that if you have key information about your competitors designs you know their strengths/weakness, but also you can see how you can improve your car, that is unfair advantage. If F1 had an open policy (were everyone can see everything everyone else is doin) Red Bull would be up there with Mclaren.
I'm not saying for definite Mclaren did use/have the documents but if they did it's a HUGE advantage.

EvilMonkey

Oblomov wrote:

A women walks into a copy shop and asks for a 780 page document to be copied and put onto a CD... question number one, what language was the document in?

English the language for F1.

The worker realises that these are 'Top Secret' documents, How?

Who brings 780 page document to a local copy shop? Ferrari can afford to do their own copying.

what sparks this sudden sense of public concern?

Who knows?

How did he or she know there were genuine and not some prank?

Probably didnt.

How do you find the telephone number of Ferrari, be it in the UK or abroad?

Phone book?

Or is this the only copy shop in the UK ( Hersham, actually) who have a direct line to Ferrari Italy.

Ferrari like most F1 teams have premises in UK

The documents are dated 2007 and this is 2008, why the concern?

A lead engineer in an opposing team has instructions to build and run your car! Even without copying what was in the docs they would spark ideas or areas that could be improved giving an unfair advantage.

Ferrari have an unlimited budget.... Money isn't really an object.

I always thought McLaren had the biggest R&D budget in F1.

muckwarrior

EvilMonkey wrote:

I always thought McLaren had the biggest R&D budget in F1.

AFAIK in recent years Toyota have spent the most money, and thats done them fυck all good so just goes to show money is no good if you don't have the talent to do something with it.

And yes, whether or not Maclaren implemented any of Ferrari's design ideas they would undoubtedly have benefited from such in-depth knowledge of their car.

heyjude

FrostyJack wrote:

This case is a sham, I cannot believe Mclaren got away with it, but as things are going now for Mclaren, I wouldn't be surprised if they ran over Bernie Ecclestone on the street in their F1 car and got away with it.

They certainly seem to be getting the benefit of any decisions concerning them recently.

Without reliability problems for McLaren it will be hard to the Ferrari drivers to catch their McLaren counterparts, especially if McLaren decide to concentrate their efforts on just one driver, but while Hungary suits the McLaren, the following races in Turkey, Italy and Belgium would seem to suit the Ferrari.

I now see that the decision not to punish McLaren might be overturned as FIA president Max Mosley has referred the case to the Court of Appeal, at which Ferrari will be able to present evidence, something which they were not permitted to do at the earlier hearing. No date has yet been set for the appeal.

nikimere

FrostyJack wrote:

No one has an unlimited money in F1, yes they are well to do but, if they had unlimited money they could have every top guy in their field, 200 wind tunnels, 200,000 members of staff!

Bigger isn't always better.

FrostyJack wrote:

Obviously? How is it obvious? I doubt your an engineer or from a technical background

Sorry, i didn't realise i had to be an engineer to post on Boards...

FrostyJack wrote:

If you have key information about your competitors designs you know their strengths/weakness, but also you can see how you can improve your car, that is unfair advantage.

Ok so lets say all that is true and McLaren did see the documents.
Ferrari also know their own strengths and weaknesses, but McLaren just did the better job with that info.
I'm not saying it's right. I'm simply saying the reason McLaren are winning is NOT because the saw the Ferrari documents, which is what some people in this thread are suggesting.
If anything all it would do is save the R&D money.

muckwarrior

Jean Todt wrote:

“Some of this data was used to prepare a clarification request submitted to the FIA, aimed clearly at us, given that throughout the Melbourne weekend, the McLaren team principal and his closest colleagues made statements in which they threw doubt over ‘some cars’.

“Therefore, such information was in fact used to obtain an advantage over us: not through an improvement in their performance, but instead through limiting ours.

While I don't think the info is the reason why Maclaren are so strong this season it's obvious that it's possible, if not probable, that they gained some sort of advantage through it.

Can't say that I really give a sh1t though. We've seen Ferrari get the benefit of the doubt so often in the past so i think it's probably fitting that Maclaren does in this instance.

FrostyJack

Sorry, i didn't realise i had to be an engineer to post on Boards...

Reread my post, I said the fact that you can't understand were I was coming from is because your not from a technical background, not that it was wrong of you to speak. I'm not going to list ways of having the information would be an advantage because it will probably go over your head.

If anything all it would do is save the R&D money.

point proven :rolleyes:

We've seen Ferrari get the benefit of the doubt so often in the past so i think it's probably fitting that Maclaren does in this instance.

True, Ferrari got the nod more than once in other situations, but in order not to listen to next season UTV coverage of reigning word champion Lewis Hamilton, I would allow justice to be done (if they actually were guilty):)

Oblomov

Evil Monkey,

English the language for F1.

An Italian company, Italian document ...in English... Yer Right.

Dialed Ferrari into BT directory enquiries, for 'Ferrari' six for Ferrari and maserati parts.,, no F1 team

Dialed in Maranello six Ferrari dealers,, no F1Teams.

If you go to the Ferrari GB web site, the method of contact via the Fiorano web site and the comments is we will try and get in touch.... if you are not ordering a car... don't hold your breath.

But, it is now back to court.. and ferrari spitting and spluttering.. someone should appeal against the win in OZ

muckwarrior

Oblomov wrote:

An Italian company, Italian document ...in English... Yer Right.

It's entirely possible. At a recent race they made a comment that even though the driver (Fisi?) was italian and so was his engineer they still spoke english to each other! It may be an italian team but it's full of different natialities and the de facto language isn't necessaraly going to be italian.

heyjude

Oblomov wrote:

An Italian company, Italian document ...in English... Yer Right.

Jean Todt - French, Ross Braun - English, Rory Byrne - South African, Nigel Stepney - English, Michael Schumacher(main driver for past few years) - German, Felipe Massa - Brazilian, Kimi Raikkonen - Finnish.

The point is that although Ferrari is an Italian team, a large part of its top staff in recent years has been from outside Italy, so English became the common language as it is throughout F1(think of Bernie Ecclestone and Max Mosley too).

So having their technical documents in English is entirely plausible.

Oblomov

Jean Todt - French, Ross Braun - English, Rory Byrne - South African, Nigel Stepney - English, Michael Schumacher (main driver for past few years) - German, Felipe Massa - Brazilian, Kimi Raikkonen - Finnish.

Ok, but who was there in 2006 out of that bunch?

I can understand the multi lingual facet but.. having been in the pit lane and spoken to the numerous teams, yes everyone understands English, from the gofor to the senior engineers but you see there eyes light up when you speak in their native language.

Documents, the ones I've seen on benches and by tool boxes have been in the native language of the team...

You must also realise that the documents would not be available to drivers but only the team members involved in the development of the vehicle. Hardly passed around for consumption by all.

Very much a need to know basis.

The R&D of a suspension link would not be given to drivers, the aerofoil dimension would only be made available to certain employees, the fabrication details would only be relevant to key personnel.

IT would be nice to see exactly what the 780 page portfolio consisted of and the details... interesting reading...

v10

Flavio_Briatore wrote:

Just read the regulations: for intellectual property theft the punishment is exclusion

Thats Flavio Briatore opinion who's no Ferrari fan and also my opinion. They broke the rules, and weren't punished accordingly. Simple as that.

Oblomov

So what Flavio is saying: because they, McLaren, sorted the supposed tyre problem quicker than Renault, Flavio's team, Mclaren must have cheated.

Sour grapes or what?

Stepney has stated thet he did not give the documents to anyone let alone Goughlan.

Who gave the documents to Goughlan? wasn't the court case in London against the Goughlans to determine if they had possession and who they received them?

Or did someone forget to ask that?

v10

Oblomov wrote:

Sour grapes or what??

It's when Flavio said ''Just read the regulations: for intellectual property theft the punishment is exclusion'' that I agree with .. whatever his reason for pointing out the rule is irrelevant.

Oblomov wrote:

Stepney has stated thet he did not give the documents to anyone let alone Goughlan.

Thats not relevant either .. the point is (an employee of) McLaren had the documents and nobody is denying that.

Oblomov wrote:

Who gave the documents to Goughlan? wasn't the court case in London against the Goughlans to determine if they had possession and who they received them?

Or did someone forget to ask that?

That's a civil case and hasn't gone to court yet from what I understand.

Oblomov

It's when Flavio said ''Just read the regulations: for intellectual property theft the punishment is exclusion'' that I agree with .. whatever his reason for pointing out the rule is irrelevant.

The problem with that quote, you have to prove beyond reasonable doubt that it was read by the person or persons you are accusing. Receiving stolen property has different implications from the act of theft.

The copyright claims in the computer world over possible infringement are a very good guide to the futility of such action.

Thats not relevant either .. the point is (an employee of) McLaren had the documents and nobody is denying that.

Re word to read a Mr and Mrs Coughlan were found to be in possession, any other thinking is purely conjecture. Other than remarking on the obvious.

That's a civil case and hasn't gone to court yet from what I understand.

Ferrari are seeking a search order for a computer 'in possession of a third party', which has been used by McLaren's chief designer Mike Coughlan, it has emerged today.

It is believed Ferrari's request relates to Coughlan's workstation at McLaren, although the specific details of Ferrari's application were not made public.

The hearing at Court 59 in London's High Court today followed up on a search order granted by the court last week, with the judge consenting to transfer to Ferrari the material recovered during that search.

The search at Coughlan's house recovered two computer discs, which are said to include 780 confidential pages with technical information belonging to Ferrari.

These discs have since been held by an independent supervising solicitor appointed by the court, but today Ferrari requested these discs will be transferred to them, and with no objection from Coughlan's lawyer, the right honourable Judge Briggs has consented.

Another request made in today's application relates to permitting Ferrari to hand over the information and material so far gathered under the court order to the Italian legal authorities, where a criminal investigation is held against ex-Ferrari employee Nigel Stepney.

Ferrari are bound by the court to keep all information tied to the case in confidence and may not transfer the information to anyone, including the Modena district attorney or the FIA, without the court's permission.

Judge Briggs is set to hear Ferrari's arguments tomorrow and could make a decision then.

But tomorrow's session, at 10:30am, will primarily centre around Mike Coughlan's affidavit - or lack of it.

Coughlan was ordered by the court to provide an affidavit detailing his involvement in this case and how he came in possession of Ferrari's documents.

But his attorney asked today for a continuance, saying it is yet unclear whether or not Coughlan's affidavit could be self-incriminating and used against him in criminal proceedings in Italy.

Coughlan is not named as a defendant in the Modenese court case, while the London case is a civil one.

His lawyer explained that they are still waiting for clarification regarding the Italian law, apparently concerned that Coughlan's affidavit could then be used to bring criminal charges against him in Italy.

Ferrari's lawyers, however, argued that Coughlan, who so far co-operated with the court-ordered search and subsequent investigation, has already waived any privilege against self-incrimination.

The court adjourned the debate until tomorrow, at which time Coughlan either provides an affidavit, or the two sides argue whether or not he can claim privilege. Coughlan's lawyer must, however, inform Ferrari's lawyers this afternoon what he decides to do, to allow them to prepare for tomorrow's hearing.

If Coughlan decides to argue privilege, it will be down to Judge Briggs to decide whether to accept this or not, and that decision may not necessarily be made immediately tomorrow.

Ferrari's lawyers emphasized the importance of such affidavit, stating there are a few crucial questions that remain unanswered or unclear.

Firstly, they pointed to a discrepancy in the dates of the events. According to the evidence gathered from the photocopying agency, which tipped Ferrari off to begin with, the documents were copied, scanned or printed on or around the 2nd or 3rd of May.

McLaren's statement last week said Coughlan obtained Ferrari's documents at the end of April, and Ferrari are not satisfied with the explanations so far provided to them by Coughlan on how exactly he obtained these documents and what he did with them thereafter.

Furthermore, Ferrari want to know when exactly Coughlan told McLaren team manager Jonathan Neale about these documents - although the Italians made it clear they are not taking legal action against Neale himself.

All the while, Coughlan himself sat at the back row of Court 59 looking despondent and perhaps overwhelmed. His affidavit, should he end up submitting it, will no doubt shed light on this entire affair. But that affidavit too will not be made public, not just yet. And for now, at least where the media is concerned, Coughlan maintains his silence.