WWE's Peak?

Anto McC

I suppose this question is directed at you WWE fans who have been watching for at least 15 years or so (which i'm sure is a good number of you).

At what point over the last 15 years of the WWE,do you think was the most exciting? Be it a specific year,pay per veiw,match or even storyline.

For me,the peak of excitement was upto and then,amalgamation of the Corporation and the Ministry,into the well thought out title of "The Corporate Ministry"

That was a time when i could just not get enough of wrestling,i'd never miss a Raw and would watch all the b-shows too. Although i still loved wrestling for a good while after,it just never reached those heights again in my opinion.

Apologies if this has been covered before.

Mr.Nice Guy

I think Wrestlemania 17 was their peak point. It was a great PPV and was probably the last great moment of the attitude era. The Rock/Austin feud in particular was just brilliant.

ec18

wrestlemania 17 was probably the best one ever

Fozzy

I was never a big Austin fan back around 98/99, but looking back that was a pretty good time. From a main event perspective, I enjoyed 2000 and the lead up to WM 17. But for the time that I was most enjoying WWE and just couldn't wait to see the next show, it was thanks to the "Smackdown Six" of Kurt Angle, Chris Benoit, Edge, Rey Mysterio, Eddie and Chavo Guerrero. I think things with them started around mid-2002 and you'd be guaranteed an excellent match between some combination of them every week. Brock Lesnar was doing real well then too and I was completely into his feud with Angle leading up to WM in 2003. There was Matt Hardy doing his V-1 gimmick then too, I loved that gimmick. They were good times! Haven't a clue what was happening on Raw at the time though, HHH was probably beating anyone who challenged him

Vince135792003

Personally, I really loved the Bret Hart heel period in 1997. WWE were still losing in the ratings but I thought the tv was consistently great. There was a real edge about it.


Peak business wise, well I guess Wrestlemania 17 was the farewell to the attitude boom period.

chopperbyrne

Brets heel run was good along with the reformed Hart Foundation.

The feud between The Nation, DX, The Hart Foundation and the loner Austin was excellent.

Was Undertaker and Mankinds feud kicking off around this time too. The boiler room brawls and that?

ShawnRaven

Undoubtably Mania X7 was their peak period as far as PPV was concerned, as far as TV was concerned i'd have to say RAW in 1997 when it was pretty much must-see TV.

How we yearn for those days again.
VR!

Ruu_Old

chopperbyrne wrote:

Brets heel run was good along with the reformed Hart Foundation.

The feud between The Nation, DX, The Hart Foundation and the loner Austin was excellent.

Was Undertaker and Mankinds feud kicking off around this time too. The boiler room brawls and that?

That all happened in a short space of time, late 90s I think where the Ministry of Darkness and Corporate Ministry merged. Undertaker and Mankind had a couple of boiler room brawls as far as I can remember as well as the hell in the cell.

ShawnRaven

Ruu wrote:

That all happened in a short space of time, late 90s I think where the Ministry of Darkness and Corporate Ministry merged. Undertaker and Mankind had a couple of boiler room brawls as far as I can remember as well as the hell in the cell.

Guess again m'man. Undertaker and Mankind had their boiler room brawl at Summerslam 1996. Mankind and Big Slow had one around 99 though.

VR!

Fozzy

Ruu wrote:

That all happened in a short space of time, late 90s I think where the Ministry of Darkness and Corporate Ministry merged. Undertaker and Mankind had a couple of boiler room brawls as far as I can remember as well as the hell in the cell.

That was 98, Taker and Mankind were feuding in 97 when there was the Hart Foundation, the Nation and DX. I didn't watch it back in 97, but from what I've seen of it it looked good, sort of like ECW was but bigger

ShawnRaven

OK i think we should break this down a bit and make it clearer

Austin v Harts was 97, he also had Michaels on his side temporarily and won the tag championship with him for a bit.

DX and The Nation was 98, Shawn was out by this point and DX had done the parodies of the Nation and the Corporation

The boiler room brawl with Mankind and Undertaker was definitely 1996, it was the first one WWE had shown on PPV. It was taped earlier on in the day i believe

VR!

Anto McC

validreasoning! wrote:

It was taped earlier on in the day i believe

You're correct on that.

That was a great fued. Taker and Mankind had a natural chemistry with each other and their fueds and matches worked so well. The Hell in a cell from King of the Ring is a very entertaining match conisdering there is little or no wrestling involved.

Gillie

WMX7. The build up to Rock Austin was perfect.
They don't use build ups like that anymore!

Now they just use "Instafued"!

Vince135792003

Gillie wrote:

WMX7. The build up to Rock Austin was perfect.

I actually don't think when you broke it down the build up was anything special. Debra's involvement certainly didn't add anything to it.


I think it was just one of those times when all you had to do was put both guys against each other and the story, interest and excitement followed on from it because both guys were such monster stars, that WWE's work was already done.

rossie1977

1997 was probably the best year wrestling wise but that whole period from May 1996 (when Scott Hall first appeared on Nitro) until late 1998 is the best time (entertainment wise) that I can remember in the last 20 years (the viewing figures reflect that); just goes to show what strong competition can do to the industry.

ShawnRaven

Vince135792003 wrote:

I actually don't think when you broke it down the build up was anything special. Debra's involvement certainly didn't add anything to it.

It was a good buildup, nothing to do with Debra, but with Austin getting desperate to want his belt back after being out for the guts of a year, they built it up as a grudge match. Austin wanting something Rock had, as well as the classic tag partners who don't trust each other (they were paired together the last RAW before Mania). It made for good TV

VR!

Vince135792003

validreasoning! wrote:

It was a good buildup, nothing to do with Debra, but with Austin getting desperate to want his belt back after being out for the guts of a year, they built it up as a grudge match. Austin wanting something Rock had, as well as the classic tag partners who don't trust each other (they were paired together the last RAW before Mania). It made for good TV

VR!

I jut thought involving Debra as the Rocks manager was filler tv for 2 weeks.

Fozzy

The only thing I really remember about it was the way there was so much tension between them, they both played off that very well with the sit-down interview. Then when they finally came to blows on the SD before the ppv (I think that's when it was) it was just brilliant. Nothing really that special, just a simple enough story involving two of the best

The Sparrow

Yeah WM 17 was definitely the peak...The lead up with Austin and Rock was brilliant and the last RAW with the Shane snatching WCW from Vince and Rock stunning Austin was brilliant... So much hope of how great the next few months were going to be with the Invasion angle that no company (and certainly not a red hot one like WWE) could possibly mess up... :rolleyes:

Mr.Nice Guy

I think the great thing about the Rock/Austin feud was that it was teased so well in the previous months. If you remember the six-man Armageddon Hell in a Cell match in December they had a Rock/Austin stand-off and they did another stand-off again the next month at the Royal Rumble when it came down to Austin, Rock and Kane in the last 3.

When the feud was properly underway I liked the fact they had Rock hit Austin with the stunner on one of the Raw episodes. I remember it was a huge deal at the time. :cool:

ShawnRaven

They botched the InVasion angle so badly though it was irreconsilable beyond belief. It would serve as the butt of jokes to come, even by Mick Foley last year saying that "he respected ECW when it had a leader, a visionary like Stephanie McMahon!"

Austin's heel turn was badly timed at that PPV as well. It looked great as the crowd just looked on in shock as he kept walloping Rock with the chair but it just didn't pan out, then Austin got injured on top of it, really bad timing. Between that and the InVasion angle, the WWE would fall from their peak and never see it again.

VR!

krudler

if they had presented wcw/ecw as a threat rather than a bunch of mid carders then the invasion angle could have gone on for a year,pity they didnt have some bigger wcw names like goldberg and steiner at the time to join the alliance,vinces ego ruined what could have been the biggest angle in wrestling history,and they brought the nWo in too late as well they should have been the first wcw guys to arrive

ShawnRaven

krudler wrote:

vinces ego ruined what could have been the biggest angle in wrestling history,and they brought the nWo in too late as well they should have been the first wcw guys to arrive

Vince's ego didn't kill that. Steiner, Hall, Nash, Hogan and Goldberg were all on guaranteed contracts with time-warner! Being paid for their entire contract regardless on if they worked the shows or not. Now if you want to pin the blame on someone there, try Bischoff as he drew up the contract! That was way out of Vince's control. Believe me, i'm pretty sure he'd have gotten in Goldberg a lot sooner than he did.

The likes of Booker and DDP were either on the tail end of their contract or they gave it up to go to WWE.

But if you were being paid millions for sitting at home, you'd do it too
VR!

The Sparrow

validreasoning! wrote:

Vince's ego didn't kill that. Steiner, Hall, Nash, Hogan and Goldberg were all on guaranteed contracts with time-warner! Being paid for their entire contract regardless on if they worked the shows or not. Now if you want to pin the blame on someone there, try Bischoff as he drew up the contract! That was way out of Vince's control. Believe me, i'm pretty sure he'd have gotten in Goldberg a lot sooner than he did.

The likes of Booker and DDP were either on the tail end of their contract or they gave it up to go to WWE.

But if you were being paid millions for sitting at home, you'd do it too
VR!

I`m pretty sure Vince could have worked something out if he really wanted to bring the bigger names in... Considering that they purchased WCW for so cheap, they could have easily paid the cash to buy their contracts out. It was all about Vince's ego... Even when he bought WCW he still thought that he could portray it as WWE light. Pretty much every big WCW star ever brought it was diluted because of his ego and in the Invasion he just diluted the whole company.

So it may not have mattered who he brought in, other than that guys like Nash or Hogan perhaps would have been able to demand more prominent roles than the likes of Booker T or Mike Awesome.

Vince135792003

woooo232 wrote:

I`m pretty sure Vince could have worked something out if he really wanted to bring the bigger names in...

Maybe but if your Bill Goldberg and your on, I dunno 2 million dollars a year, sitting on your couch, how much would it take for you to go on a WWE full time schedule?

Certainly you wouldn't do it for 2 million. Would you do it for 3? Maybe. Maybe not. And thats the problem. The more the WWE were going to pay for talent the riskier in terms of making money it became.

Now some would argue you have to spend money to make money ala UFC who spent $1.5 million dollars alone on advertising the last UFC show in Belfast.

Basically I don't think it was a black and white issue. In any event they screwed the whole thing up.

ShawnRaven

woooo232 wrote:

Considering that they purchased WCW for so cheap, they could have easily paid the cash to buy their contracts out. It was all about Vince's ego... Even when he bought WCW he still thought that he could portray it as WWE light. Pretty much every big WCW star ever brought it was diluted because of his ego and in the Invasion he just diluted the whole company.

Because that's exactly what you would have done in that situation. Given that Hogan testified against you and so on and so forth. Nothing to do with Ego, They need Vince more than Vince needs them at the end of the day.

As for your big star list, most of those WCW big stars you refer to were WWE big stars before WWE so it's not really about ego when it was fact that Vince made them who they were before they even went to WCW at the time.

The invasion angle didn't dilute the whole company, bad management did that hence why he was able to buy it for a song in the first place.

VR!

chopperbyrne

The key people they needed for that Invasion angle to work were Hall, Nash, Hogan, Goldberg, Flair and most importantly, Sting.

They got none of them and the angle bombed.

It still had some of the funniest promos ever during it though.

The Sparrow

validreasoning! wrote:

Because that's exactly what you would have done in that situation. Given that Hogan testified against you and so on and so forth. Nothing to do with Ego, They need Vince more than Vince needs them at the end of the day.

So thats why a little later on Vince brought in Hogan and gave him a big push?! I really think he had gotten over the whole Hogan testifying against him deal by 2001!

validreasoning! wrote:

As for your big star list, most of those WCW big stars you refer to were WWE big stars before WWE so it's not really about ego when it was fact that Vince made them who they were before they even went to WCW at the time.

Eh... that is exactly why I differentiated Nash and Hogan from the rest and said that they would probably have been able to demand bigger roles precisely because they were big stars in WWE before! I mean stupid me, I thought Hogan's first run was in WCW!:rolleyes:

validreasoning! wrote:

The invasion angle didn't dilute the whole company, bad management did that hence why he was able to buy it for a song in the first place.

Bollox! From March 23rd 2001 when WWF bought WCW it ceased to matter one bit how WCW was run before... From a WWF point of view, it doesn`t matter one bit why they were able to purchase WCW because once they did it was a gold mine that they messed up... So are you saying that WCW wasnt further diluted by WWF?

ShawnRaven

woooo232 wrote:

So thats why a little later on Vince brought in Hogan and gave him a big push?! I really think he had gotten over the whole Hogan testifying against him deal by 2001!

He had the WWE title for 1 month, hardly the big push you mention, they did pretty similar with Nash sticking him in PPV main event after main event in 2003.

woooo232 wrote:

Eh... that is exactly why I differentiated Nash and Hogan from the rest and said that they would probably have been able to demand bigger roles precisely because they were big stars in WWE before! I mean stupid me, I thought Hogan's first run was in WCW!:rolleyes:

Wouldn't surprise me quite frankly.
Booker T by that point was still a midcarder who got lucky with a couple of championships and still was nothing special by the time WCW folded. Neither was DDP. Fact of the matter is, WWE had f*ck all to work with because of the talent that was available to them. Did it ever occour to you that Vince MAY have offered to buy out contracts, but of course, the choice of work for money or sit for money, which would you pick and why? Mike Awesome? That 70s guy? As a top guy in WCW? Don't make me laugh mate!

Bollox! From March 23rd 2001 when WWF bought WCW it ceased to matter one bit how WCW was run before... From a WWF point of view, it doesn`t matter one bit why they were able to purchase WCW because once they did it was a gold mine that they messed up... So are you saying that WCW wasnt further diluted by WWF?

I don't think you can dilute it any further than having David Arquette as champion, Jindrack and O'Haire who were as green as lettuce and still rookies as tag champions while their highest paid stars being Hogan, Nash and Goldberg not even on TV. WCW was far from the goldmine it was in 1998 when it was destroying WWE week after week in the monday night ratings war. So yes, i am saying it wasn't further diluted.

Now if you're talking about a goldmine WWE are sitting on and are messing it up, try the WCW video library.

VR!

The Sparrow

validreasoning! wrote:

He had the WWE title for 1 month, hardly the big push you mention, they did pretty similar with Nash sticking him in PPV main event after main event in 2003.

Wouldn't surprise me quite frankly.
Booker T by that point was still a midcarder who got lucky with a couple of championships and still was nothing special by the time WCW folded. Neither was DDP. Fact of the matter is, WWE had f*ck all to work with because of the talent that was available to them. Did it ever occour to you that Vince MAY have offered to buy out contracts, but of course, the choice of work for money or sit for money, which would you pick and why? Mike Awesome? That 70s guy? As a top guy in WCW? Don't make me laugh mate!

I don't think you can dilute it any further than having David Arquette as champion, Jindrack and O'Haire who were as green as lettuce and still rookies as tag champions while their highest paid stars being Hogan, Nash and Goldberg not even on TV. WCW was far from the goldmine it was in 1998 when it was destroying WWE week after week in the monday night ratings war. So yes, i am saying it wasn't further diluted.

Now if you're talking about a goldmine WWE are sitting on and are messing it up, try the WCW video library.

VR!

Ok you clearly don`t understand what I`m saying... perhaps its over your head or perhaps your just being intentionally awkward. Unfortunately not all of us are they great wrestling historians that you are:rolleyes:

So your saying that you don`t consider the push Hogan got when he came in as a big one because he only held the title for one month?

Please find where I said that Mike Awesome was a big star in WCW? In fact the context that I mentioned his name in was that he like Booker T was not a big star and could never have demanded the sort of position on the roster that a Nash, Hogan or even Goldberg or Sting could have. However at the beginning of the Invasion he was positioned as one of the top guys that was coming in from WCW only to be jobbed out pretty quickly. My point if you had bothered to read it was that bigger stars from WCW (especially ex WWF ones) would have been able to prevent that happenning to them.

Really the truth is that WWF could have negotiated to buy the contracts of the bigger stars from Time Warner and spent the money required to do it right. Just because WCW was previously diluted does not give WWE a pass on messing up the biggest money angle in wrestling history. Bischoff and Russo or whomever were not booking when WWE completely screwed up the Invasion. So you think it was nothing to do with Vince's ego that WCW was never put over in any meaningful way?!

ShawnRaven

woooo232 wrote:

Ok you clearly don`t understand what I`m saying... perhaps its over your head or perhaps your just being intentionally awkward. Unfortunately not all of us are they great wrestling historians that you are:rolleyes:

Thanks for the compliment, although i actually thought you got banned for your comment in the Benoit thread? Welcome back anyway.

woooo232 wrote:

So your saying that you don`t consider the push Hogan got when he came in as a big one because he only held the title for one month?

Not really because he got pushed to midcard and ended up feuding with Angle, who at the time was a midcarder and then with teamed with Edge (also a midcarder in 2002) for the tag titles.

woooo232 wrote:

Please find where I said that Mike Awesome was a big star in WCW? In fact the context that I mentioned his name in was that he like Booker T was not a big star and could never have demanded the sort of position on the roster that a Nash, Hogan or even Goldberg or Sting could have. However at the beginning of the Invasion he was positioned as one of the top guys that was coming in from WCW only to be jobbed out pretty quickly. My point if you had bothered to read it was that bigger stars from WCW (especially ex WWF ones) would have been able to prevent that happenning to them.

My mistake about Awesome dude... was at work and rushed through reading it. Not an excuse but an explanation.
I don't know about if they would have been able to prevent it. Undertaker had a big problem working with WCW guys at the time, so much that he suggested Kronik go back to OVW (and bear in mind that Bryan Clarke is a good friend of his, granted Clarke had no problem with it, it was Adams who stormed out), My theory on the failure of the Invasion angle was due to throwing ECW in there way too early and not to mention throwing Stephanie McMahon in there. It was actually watchable up til after King of The Ring.

woooo232 wrote:

Really the truth is that WWF could have negotiated to buy the contracts of the bigger stars from Time Warner and spent the money required to do it right. Just because WCW was previously diluted does not give WWE a pass on messing up the biggest money angle in wrestling history. Bischoff and Russo or whomever were not booking when WWE completely screwed up the Invasion. So you think it was nothing to do with Vince's ego that WCW was never put over in any meaningful way?!

Again, the likes of Nash, Hogan and Goldberg would still easily sit around for money than go on the road for it. We don't know if it wasn't for the want of Vince's trying. It's just an easily made assumption. I never said Russo or Bischoff were responsible for screwing up the Invasion, i'm saying they screwed up the company so badly that they couldn't even sell the damn company for a decent price! By the time it go to be an angle, it was a shadow of it's former self. I'll agree it did have a lot of potential, but i don't think Nash, Goldberg or Hogan would have saved it. Not at the time anyway.

Now... had they waited a few more months before they could get the NWO back? Now thats another story.

VR!

The Sparrow

validreasoning! wrote:

Thanks for the compliment, although i actually thought you got banned for your comment in the Benoit thread? Welcome back anyway.

Haha yeah was banned for pointing out that a thread solely devoted to saying RIP to Chris Benoit with no other discussion was probably not a good idea when it was clear what had transpired. Only for a couple of hours later another thread was started with lots of people saying just that! Go figure!

My first ban from Boards.. something of a milestone I suppose! Quite what it that has to do with this is another story though?

Thanks, for the welcome back though its good to be back in your esteemed company!:)

ShawnRaven

woooo232 wrote:

Haha yeah was banned for pointing out that a thread solely devoted to saying RIP to Chris Benoit with no other discussion was probably not a good idea when it was clear what had transpired. Only for a couple of hours later another thread was started with lots of people saying just that! Go figure!

My first ban from Boards.. something of a milestone I suppose!

Thanks its good to be back in your esteemed company!:)

Good debate btw
VR!