Black Gold

Extreme-LoopZ

Hi guys,
I wasn't sure whether to put this here or in the movie forum, but I was just wondering how many of you, as avid coffee lovers, have seen this film? For those not in the know it's about world coffee trade and the exploitation of coffee farmers. What stuck in my mind most was that the average Ethiopian coffee farmer receives less than 3 US Cents for a $3 cup of coffee. I guess what I am really getting at is as coffee drinkers what is your opinion of the trade and do you chose Fair Trade products?
Thanx.

RE*AC*TOR

The current movement is towards high quality coffee, and farmers are rewarded for their efforts (Cup of Excellence awards etc). Fairtrade is a nice idea, but is a little akin to charity. I think a market driven increase in prices is better in the long run, however, both can serve their purpose together.

It might all be moot soon anyway, as coffee consumption is increasing world-wide, and its outstripping production, so coffee prices will only be going one way from now on.

Just to make myself clear, in summation, on my first paragraph - I would prefer to see coffee farmers rewarded for producing excellent coffee than just given a high price for their good/bad/indifferent crop. In the end this would foster more efforts on the part of the farmers to do everything to ensure quality.

billyblanks

RE*AC*TOR wrote:

Just to make myself clear, in summation, on my first paragraph - I would prefer to see coffee farmers rewarded for producing excellent coffee than just given a high price for their good/bad/indifferent crop. In the end this would foster more efforts on the part of the farmers to do everything to ensure quality.

I would agree with this......I feel that Fair Trade is no longer the right way to go, there are better ways of insuring the farmer gets looked after. I feel that fair trade has become a bit of a joke at this stage, I was pulled up before for referring to fair Trade as a brand, It may not actually be a brand but that is how it is being used by the bigger coffee companies.
When companies like Nestle launch their own range of "fair trade" coffees you have to begin to wonder how much it is benefiting the farmers? At this stage I would say the fair trade logo benefits coffee companies more than farmers as they can charge more for coffee that is branded Fair Trade.

rockbeer

As far as I can see it's one of those situation where you have to do what you can.

I agree entirely that companies like Nestlé jumping on board is a disturbing development and can make it all appear a bit disingenuous. However if you think that ignoring the issue and buying whatever coffee you like is going to help the situation then you're badly mistaken. It's easy to criticize fair trade, but unless you're going to deal directly with coffee growers yourself or seek out ethical coffee traders who don't, for whatever reason, operate under the fair trade label, then what other measure do you have of the origin of your coffee?

I also wouldn't agree that fair trade is akin to charity. As I understand it, it's more about cutting out the middlemen who rake off most of the difference between the €3 you pay and the 3c the farmer typically gets.

Quality should always be rewarded, but it's also true to say that most fair trade coffee is of a high quality. I wouldn't in any way endorse buying any old s***e coffee just because it's fair trade. And I'd always try to buy from somebody who deals exclusively in fair trade or ethically sourced beans rather than someone like Nestlé who carry on the same old corrupt business for most of their products and just carry a fair trade line for publicity purposes.

I would strongly argue that, all other things being equal, it's far better to buy fair trade than not.

Edit: It's also worth pointing out that in most of Europe Fair Trade coffee is pretty much equal in price to non fair trade. As it should be. It's only here that we seem willing to pay a ridiculous premium for the conscience factor.

dudara

Fairtrade is an admirable idea with good intentions. However I think that most people have adopted it as a bandwagon or something that brings them good publicity.

I personally push for good coffee. That's what I want. I'm not going to buy fairtrade if it tastes like muck.

Gran Hermano

I have to agree with Dudara on this, Fairtrade is second to taste and quality.
I've seen the conditions people live in in Latin and South America first hand
and I really don't think me paying a premium is going to negate the pricing
the likes the large instant coffee buyers for Nescafe and Maxwell House pay
when buying beans for instant muck. It's the large food MNCs and places
like Starbuck$ that have more of an impact on the global coffee prices than
me buying a few kilos.

Most of the posters on here are not typical coffee buyers insofar as we're
probably buying better quality beans from niche growers/distributors where
possible. This side of the coffee market tends to be 'fairer' for the growers
than those supplying the MNCs.

It's akin to telling a farmer in Donegal to only use half his light bulbs to help
solve global warming only for him to go on his holidays to Vegas and look at
the amount of light bulbs in use on any given night. Like what one chap in
Ireland does is going to compensate for usage in USA, China, India, etc.


If Fairtrade helps assuage some of your guilt for living a consumer
driven lifestyle, go for it. What's next Fairtrade beef in Tesco supplied by
Irish farmers? It'll remain in my eyes Farce Trade as most people are buying
it as a fashion statement, most fair-trade goods are items that are
visible when you enter a persons kitchen, stuff you can display on your
counter top for visitors to see you have a 'social conscience'.


I'm more interested about how the growing number of coffee drinkers in
China due to the westernisation of their culture will increase demand and
coffee prices in general. (hopefully it'll be the bottom end of the market).

rockbeer

dudara wrote:

I'm not going to buy fairtrade if it tastes like muck.

Gran Hermano wrote:

Fairtrade is second to taste and quality

You guys won't mind me asking you to explain why you presume fair trade coffee is of poor quality? Is that opinion based on experience or other evidence? In my experience fair trade is like other coffee - some is muck, some is average and a small amount is excellent.

You both seem quite happy to dismiss all ft as inferior. Why??

No one is advocating buying crap coffee, no matter how its marketed.

Gran Hermano wrote:

I've seen the conditions people live in in Latin and South America first hand
and I really don't think me paying a premium is going to negate the pricing
the likes the large instant coffee buyers for Nescafe and Maxwell House pay
when buying beans for instant muck. It's the large food MNCs and places
like Starbuck$ that have more of an impact on the global coffee prices than
me buying a few kilos.

I've also seen tea and coffee plantations in asia and have no illusions about how things are for people. Much of what you say is self-evidently true, but I think you miss the point in a number of ways.

Firstly, as I've already pointed out, fair trade in most of europe doesn't involve paying a premium, that's an Irish phenomenon. If demand for ft increases the price will drop as it has everywhere else.

Secondly, it's just as possible to find quality ft as it is any other coffee, you just have to be willing to look a bit harder. If you're saying it's more important to you to have an easy life than to make a small effort to guarantee a fair price to the producers then I can't really argue with that.

Thirdly, everything that every individual does makes a difference. Maybe not a big one, but some kind of difference. As I started out by saying, it seems like an issue where you do what you can.

dudara wrote:

However I think that most people have adopted it as a bandwagon or something that brings them good publicity.

Gran Hermano wrote:

If Fairtrade helps assuage some of your guilt for living a consumer driven lifestyle, go for it. What's next Fairtrade beef in Tesco supplied by Irish farmers? It'll remain in my eyes Farce Trade as most people are buying it as a fashion statement, most fair-trade goods are items that are
visible when you enter a persons kitchen, stuff you can display on your
counter top for visitors to see you have a 'social conscience'.

I can't work out whether you two have a problem with fair trade because you don't think it works or because you object to some of the halfwits who think it makes them look good to buy it.

I'm quite sure you're both right and many people are buying it as a fashion statement, but what difference does that make to you? Yes many people are idiots but that will remain true with or without fair trade. Faced with two bags of coffee of equal quality and price, would you buy the fair trade bag?

Gran Hermano wrote:

I'm more interested about how the growing number of coffee drinkers in China due to the westernisation of their culture will increase demand and coffee prices in general.

If you don't mind me saying so, I think this is a misguided approach. The problem in the coffee industry isn't the price of the commodity itself so much as the way the market is structured. Traditionally it's been a plantation cash crop, with the producers tantamount to slaves existing on subsistence wages while earning big money for brokers. Under this arrangement it doesn't really matter how much the demand or price increases as so little of the extra money finds it's way to the producers. Restructuring of the market is more necessary than raw price increases if things are to improve.

Fair trade and other ethical trading initiatives seek to bypass the traditional system and guarantee a fair price to the producer, which is why they're important. This is best achieved by cutting out the broker, as it keeps the price more in line with international market values. You're no doubt correct that one individual choosing to buy fair trade in itself makes little impact on the global coffee market. Nonetheless I see it as an important decision because you can be more cinfident that the producer was paid fairly for the particular coffee you just bought, regardless of what else might be going on. This could be making a huge difference to that producer. More importantly, you add yourself to the increasing demand for fair trade, which is shaking up the global industry big time. Why do you think the likes of Nestlé are getting involved? And while it's surely a cynical move on their part, ultimately the producers are still the ones who stand to benefit. Change is always slow but it has to start somewhere. No doubt there's a degree of cynicism and corruption in fair trade as in all other business, but what do you hope to achieve by doing nothing?

I personally take massive hope from the fact that fair trade is moving out of the niche and into the supermarkets. In France half the coffee on the supermarket shelves these days is ft. It's not just for show - it reflects demand, which means over a third of the coffee they're selling is probably fair trade now, and it's increasing all the time. Do you really believe that doesn't make any difference?