Guard Tried to Take My Car

Rabidlamb

There was a single guard stopping for tax & insurance close to where I work about a week ago. My tax was out by 2 months but I drove up to him expecting the "produce in 10 days line" then drive on. I almost died when he told that he was "taking possession of my vehicle", I got angry & refused to hand over the keys (not recommended).

He read me the riot act quoting every section in the book & even reached his hand in the window to trying to pull the keys out of the ignition. At this stage it just reduced to a shouting match with about 20 cars behind enjoying the spectacle.

Anyhow, I remembered what a friend of the wife once told me, "you can ask any guard for ID & if they dont produce it you are in your rights to ignore them". I put the ID question to the guard & he got all flustered then backed down with the "produce your tax within 10 days" line.

I got the tax sorted & went to the cop shop yesterday where I found that there had been no record of the incident & no flag against me or the car. The guard obviously didn't want the absence of ID brought up so never even wrote it up.

Maybe one to remember for your next checkpoint.

mikemac

AFAIK, if your tax is out by 2 months the car can be seized.
You're lucky you weren't arrested OP

Lord Nikon

I blame the tax. Lousy tax.

lightening

Rabidlamb wrote:

Maybe one to remember for your next checkpoint.

I think I'll remember to pay my car tax!

Mr Magnolia

lightening wrote:

I think I'll remember to pay my car tax!

Same as that but good to know all the same.

Mutz

Rabidlamb wrote:

Anyhow, I remembered what a friend of the wife once told me, "you can ask any guard for ID & if they dont produce it you are in your rights to ignore them". I put the ID question to the guard & he got all flustered then backed down with the "produce your tax within 10 days" line.

His shoulder number is his ID. He was entitled to seize your car under section 41 Road traffic Act. He should have arrested you for obstruction.

Rabidlamb wrote:

I got the tax sorted & went to the cop shop yesterday where I found that there had been no record of the incident & no flag against me or the car. The guard obviously didn't want the absence of ID brought up so never even wrote it up.

If i were you I'd be expecting a summons for having no tax, obstruction and possibly a Section 6 public order Act summmons for creating a scene. Absence of ID is not a defence on your part - if he was in uniform imagine trying to explain your excuse to a judge.

I'm not saying this out of badness but I hope you get a nice fine. Too many dodgers arounf who think if they roar at people they'll get away with it.

Rabidlamb wrote:

Maybe one to remember for your next checkpoint.

Which? The Shouting and roaring or the ID trick? Either way not the best of advice

templetonpeck

:eek: I was stopped a couple of years ago. My insurance disc was out of date. The car was insured, I just forgot to put the new disc in. I got all flustered when trying to explain and she told me to produce it in 10 days etc. But she told me I was lucky that she could've taken the car off me. I count my blessings she saw my genuine nature, because I would have expected her to take the car.

layke

Mutz wrote:

His shoulder number is his ID. He was entitled to seize your car under section 41 Road traffic Act. He should have arrested you for obstruction.

Ken, be nice ya monkey!

Tony Danza

Everybody seems concerned about the OP's car being out of tax, which is fair enough, he should have paid his tax. But I'd be a bit more concerned about the guard not showing ID, just changing his mind and saying to produce his tax in 10 days and then there being no record of it. Sounds extremely unprofessional to me.

templetonpeck

Tony Danza wrote:

Everybody seems concerned about the OP's car being out of tax, which is fair enough, he should have paid his tax. But I'd be a bit more concerned about the guard not showing ID, just changing his mind and saying to produce his tax in 10 days and then there being no record of it. Sounds extremely unprofessional to me.

Well I've heard Carroll's sell garda t-shirts now. Maybe he wasn't a real garda :cool:

nice1franko

Ha! nice username OP. very apt.

- btw, fair play to ya!

ambro25

Not commenting on the OP, but...

Tony Danza wrote:

But I'd be a bit more concerned about the guard not showing ID, just changing his mind and saying to produce his tax in 10 days and then there being no record of it. Sounds extremely unprofessional to me.

...indeed. Anyone, including the Pope, asking to seize my car would be asked to produce actual ID and not a mere shoulder badge, and both the ID and the person would be photo'd, then their cop shop called by mobile to verify who they are - then they could make off with the car if there's not other way to solve it.

Because that's just too easy a stunt to pull by chancing carjackers these days.

agent_smith

Section 41 of road traffic 1994 act as follows
41. —(1) The Minister may, after consultation with the Minister for Justice, make regulations authorising and providing for the detention, removal, storage and subsequent release or disposal of a mechanically propelled vehicle in use in a public place where—

( a ) the person driving the vehicle refuses or fails to produce there and then a driving licence then having effect and licensing him to drive the vehicle, when production of such a licence is demanded of him by a member of the Garda Síochána under section 40 (1) of the Principal Act and the member is of opinion that the person is by reason of his age ineligible to hold a driving licence licensing him to drive the vehicle,

( b ) the vehicle is or a member of the Garda Síochána reasonably believes it to be registered in the State and the member is of opinion that the vehicle is being so used in contravention of section 56 (1) of the Principal Act, or

( c ) a member of the Garda Síochána is of opinion that any excise duty payable under section 1 of the Finance (Excise Duties) (Vehicles) Act, 1952 , in respect of the vehicle, being a vehicle which is or which the member reasonably believes to be registered in the State, has not been paid in respect of a continuous period of 3 months or more immediately prior to such use.

(2) Regulations under this section may, in particular and without prejudice to the generality of subsection (1)—

( a ) authorise and provide for the recovery by such persons or classes of persons as may be specified in the regulations from the owners of vehicles detained, removed, stored, released or disposed of, of charges in accordance with a prescribed scale, in respect of such detention, removal, storage, release or disposal and for the disposal of moneys received in respect of such charges,

( b ) provide for the waiver or deferral of such charges in such circumstances as may be specified in the regulations,

( c ) provide for the release, by or on behalf of persons referred to in paragraph ( a ), of vehicles detained, removed or stored to such persons and upon such conditions as may be specified in the regulations,

( d ) authorise and provide for the sale (or the disposal otherwise than by sale), by or on behalf of persons referred to in paragraph ( a ) of vehicles detained, removed or stored and provide for the disposal of moneys received in respect of such sale or other disposal.

(3) Notwithstanding any other provisions of this section, a vehicle shall not be disposed of thereunder before the expiration of a period of 6 weeks from the date of its detention or 2 weeks after notice of the intended disposal has been given in the prescribed manner, whichever is the longer.

(4) A person who obstructs or impedes, or assists another person to obstruct or impede, a member of the Garda Síochána in the performance of his duties under this section shall be guilty of an offence.

(5) No action shall lie in respect of anything done in good faith and without negligence in the course of the detention, removal, storage, release or disposal of a vehicle under this section.

....................................

You are within your rights not to hand over the keys as they are not a part of the car nor does the road traffic act state you have to hand over any non illegally obtained posessions to a garda. Personally i would not give a garda the keys. But i would happily and politely get out of the car and in a friendly way request for the garda to organise to have it picked up. Wait for the car to be picked up and then to ensure any damage that occurs in transit is recorded have a camera phone ready to record the state of the car before and after it has been impounded.

omega man

ambro25 wrote:

Not commenting on the OP, but...



...indeed. Anyone, including the Pope, asking to seize my car would be asked to produce actual ID and not a mere shoulder badge, and both the ID and the person would be photo'd, then their cop shop called by mobile to verify who they are - then they could make off with the car if there's not other way to solve it.

Because that's just too easy a stunt to pull by chancing carjackers these days.

Spot on. You would be some spanner to hand your car over to someone just because they have a garda uniform! In saying that i wouldnt advise the OP's methods either. OP I would be watching out for a nice letter in the post over the next weeks! If not you got lucky.

barryfitz

Mutz wrote:

If i were you I'd be expecting a summons for having no tax

Why? he was given 10 days to produce it:rolleyes:

Rabidlamb

Thanks for all the varied feedback folks.

Not that I'd advocate it but my workmate taxes his car for 3 months, then chances it for a few months after which he gets his missus to sign it off the road so he's hit with no penalities next time he taxes it. He reckons it saves him over €200 a year. She just flutters her eyelids & the guards will sign no questions asked.

Another chap I once worked with in a computer job used to photoshop fake tax discs. I remember him giving out about the NCT disc cause it had some hologram or something.

I'm probably at fault for not shopping them but you know "we're Irish".
Nobody would squeel on unmarried mother next door claiming all benefits & living with the father while working 3 days a week cash in hand.

Bad form.

jhegarty

Rabidlamb wrote:

I'm probably at fault for not shopping them but you know "we're Irish".
Nobody would squeel on unmarried mother next door claiming all benefits & living with the father while working 3 days a week cash in hand.

Bad form.

I think you will find some people would.... .but that argument has been done to death on here over the last week on the VRT thread.....

Nevyn

IF you really want to throw a snotty garda as them in irish for thier name, id, what station they are attched to and who their super is.

JHMEG

Mutz wrote:

His shoulder number is his ID.

His shoulder number is his number. Unless he has a photo and an ID card on his shoulder.

ciarsd

Was it really a guard in the first place?

On his own, doing stops and checks - lunging for keys?

ambro25

Rabidlamb wrote:

Another chap I once worked with in a computer job used to photoshop fake tax discs. I remember him giving out about the NCT disc cause it had some hologram or something.

Not actually a recommendation, but... I used to regularly scan, then colour print (all in hi-res) my tax/NCT/insurance certs for the convertible (keeping the originals in the boot, not accessible from inside the car), because of the increasing spate of slash (the roof) & grab (the certs) in the UK, and some emerging/emulating cases over here.

Never been queried over it, and they were spot-checked twice at road blocks.

nice1franko

ciarsd wrote:

Was it really a guard in the first place?

On his own, doing stops and checks - lunging for keys?

Would be a pretty elaborate/risky way to rob a car. Not to mention, when news got out about it happening once it'd be all over the papers. papers love shít like that.

ambro25

nice1franko wrote:

Would be a pretty elaborate/risky way to rob a car.

You mean, because there's ways of robbing cars with their keys that are less risky, like?
Breaking into owners' houses at night and threatening them with bodily harm? :rolleyes:

The worst they'd get if caught (without a car) is impersonating a Guard. Not a walk in the park I imagine, but still a bit different from breaking and entering and all the rest.

Linford

Would you be within your rights to ask the Garda to show you his driving licence before he takes your car?

ambro25

You're joking right?

JCDUB

Same thing happened to me on Ballymun Road a few years ago, was on my way home from work Friday avo when I was stopped at a checkpoint, tax out by a few months insurance also out although I was insured, had just forgotten to put new disc in window. Ban-garda read me the riot act and took the car off me, I asked her for a lift home to Santry as I had to take my golf clubs out of the boot and was walking through Ballymun looking for a taxi with them on my back, you can imagine what she told me!!Anyhow I couldn't get my car back until Monday morning as pound was closed all weekend, more fines per day etc. Got the car taxed, didn't pay back tax as we are double and treble taxed as motorists, all was well until a few weeks later I received five, yes five separate summonses in the post. No tax, displaying incorrect tax disc, no insurance, displaying incorrect insurance disc and something else. I rang the garda a while later to plead with her and she was having none of it, so off to court I went. Eventually stood up before the judge, he asked if my car had been taxed since, garda says yes, asks about insurance and I explain, he throws it out of court and tells the garda not to be wasting his time, you should have seen the look on her face!!!!I wish I had a camera.....

JohnBoy

umm, i'm no lawyer but does the quoted section of law not say that your tax has to be out by 3 months before they can seize the vehicle?

Rabidlamb

After "jhegarty" mentioned the VRT discussion in a previous thread I went trolling through it. Talk about a minefield of opinions, better tennis than Wimbeldon. Anyway, glad to know were not all regimented clones, it'll be a few years yet before the honour system is introduced here.

Glad to hear about JCDUB's outcome, sometimes the guards forget that we are all people too. In the greater scheme of things we are talking about a very petty offence. I recently read about a person who was up against the court for having neither tax nor insurance & the judge handed down a €200 fine. That worked about 5 times cheaper than actually paying them in the first place.

I call for anarchy, it's the only thing left that makes sense, who's with me ?..

milltown

barryfitz wrote:

Why? he was given 10 days to produce it:rolleyes:

If he produces a valid tax disc within 10 days he is, by his own admission, still guilty of the actual offence, which is driving a car on a public road without tax.

The debate about the cost of car tax has been covered in great detail here and elsewhere but we have come a long way from the times when you needed to spend half a day sitting in the tax office to get a tax disc. Even if you have to go to one of the many tax offices these days you will be in and out in less than 20 minutes normally. How much easier can they make it to tax a car?

Mutz

Guys i think you are all being a bit pedantic here. Honestly are you going to go asking all gardai that say anything to you for their ID's? Honestly I doubt it as it seems extreme. Also, speaking irish to Gardai and making every encounter with them as akward as possible? - I think i'd just want to pass by as soon as possible and go about my business. The attitude is very "Indymedia" on here.

If i can imagine what that Guard was thinking, it would be my opinion that rabidlamb was being so ignorant and aggressive about having being challeneged for having no tax, that he thought "screw this guy and his attitude, I'll use the full extent of the law here". The guard probably backed down to the o/p as he was soft. I'd say rabiblamb was lucky on this occassion.

I presume its discretionary for Gardai to take cars off folk for no tax but they can also proceed by summons, thats the reason for them having descretion.

May I quote "Whay should I pay my tax when "X" doesn't bother!"

Dades

It's not the worst crime in the world to leave your tax go out of date. Unless you are scrapping the car, when you go to renew it you have to pay arrears anyway. So for a Garda to attempt to seize your car like that is just anal.

The OP was right to kick up a fuss.

In April I applied for my car tax two weeks ahead of time, and didn't receive the disc until the old one was two week out of date.