Guard Tried to Take My Car

Our man in Havana

I would also question the legality of them operating checkpoints on their own.

ambro25

Mutz wrote:

May I quote "Whay should I pay my tax when "X" doesn't bother!"

That's not really the issue at hand here.

Mutz wrote:

Guys i think you are all being a bit pedantic here. Honestly are you going to go asking all gardai that say anything to you for their ID's?

I doubt that in the extreme - we're discussing this in the eventuality (not that far-fetched) of being asked to hand over several €1,000s or €10,000s in metal on wheels to an imposter, not for the sake of fightin' the powa': I believe there's some proportionality to be applied here.

If you're happy handing your keys over to a "Guard" conducting an impromtu check point on his own (never seen one or heard of one before, save for Guard bikers) and who is not carrying ID and changes his tune as soon as being asked for it - then you are very naive.

You might moreover remain confident in the knowledge that you'll be reimbursed by your insurance? May I then invite you to read the fine print on your insurance policy (wherein handing the keys to the thief = generally your fault, regardless of circumstances, so no pay out).

Hey, it's your car, so what do I care?

Our man in Havana

You occasionally find them operating solo in country areas. I don't know what the rule book says about 1 person checkpoints but they do seem to happen.

Mutz

oops!

Mutz

ambro25 wrote:

That's not really the issue at hand here.

Yes it is. Read back over people complaining about tax

ambro25 wrote:

I doubt that in the extreme - we're discussing this in the eventuality (not that far-fetched) of being asked to hand over several €1,000s or €10,000s in metal on wheels to an imposter, not for the sake of fightin' the powa': I believe there's some proportionality to be applied here.

If you're happy handing your keys over to a "Guard" conducting an impromtu check point on his own (never seen one or heard of one before, save for Guard bikers) and who is not carrying ID and changes his tune as soon as being asked for it - then you are very naive.

You might moreover remain confident in the knowledge that you'll be reimbursed by your insurance? May I then invite you to read the fine print on your insurance policy (wherein handing the keys to the thief = generally your fault, regardless of circumstances, so no pay out).

Hey, it's your car, so what do I care?

I'd agree with you if i were very paranoid. However, I'm not and I think anyone worth their salt could spot something dodgy.

I wouldn't take any acception to Gardai operating checkpoints alone as I've seen it done all over.

I think this I.D. debate revolves around people scraping the barrell, trying to get away with offences by any means or excuses possible.

By all means, if you think the situation is dodgy you are within your rights to ask the appropriate questions to a point. In this case it sounds like the Guard was obstructed. How do we know the O/p isn't bending the truth here. We only have his side of the story, and he is actually encouraging people to adopt his method!

My point is that the o/p was fairly happy with the Garda being a genuine Garda operating a check point on his own. If he wasn't happy with the genuinity of teh Guard, why did he stop for him in the first place?

The O/p decided that he'd use a trick he heard from some aul fella on a bar stool down in the local pub. I still think the Guard should have stood his ground.

Seth Brundle

Mutz wrote:

Guys i think you are all being a bit pedantic here. Honestly are you going to go asking all gardai that say anything to you for their ID's? Honestly I doubt it as it seems extreme. Also, speaking irish to Gardai and making every encounter with them as akward as possible? - I think i'd just want to pass by as soon as possible and go about my business. The attitude is very "Indymedia" on here.

If i can imagine what that Guard was thinking, it would be my opinion that rabidlamb was being so ignorant and aggressive about having being challeneged for having no tax, that he thought "screw this guy and his attitude, I'll use the full extent of the law here". The guard probably backed down to the o/p as he was soft. I'd say rabiblamb was lucky on this occassion.

I presume its discretionary for Gardai to take cars off folk for no tax but they can also proceed by summons, thats the reason for them having descretion.

May I quote "Whay should I pay my tax when "X" doesn't bother!"

So the gardai are above the law then?
Would you dismiss your rights purely because someone in a uniform tells you to?

Our man in Havana

A garda not having his official ID whilst on duty would be a disciplinary offence one would think. It is amazing they would try to operate without their official ID cards.

hermit

Gardai do not have to operate a checkpoint in order to enquire about your tax and insurance. If a garda is walking across the road at traffic lights and notices the first car at the lights has no tax/insurance etc.. he/she can make enquiries as to whats going on... Same as seeing someone using a mobile phone in a car... So the question of legality regarding a lone garda operating a checkpoint is irrelevant.

Our man in Havana

That's fine, but the legality of a Garda being on duty without their official ID is relevant.

yayamark

wouldnt it be a lot easier if he just paid his tax.

OKenora

Well without being shown the relevant ID i would be dubious about handing over keys to a "Garda". i would at least expect to be provided with details and allowed contact someone who could validate this garda as being legit.

If you want naive then it's thinking that it was definitely a garda and not an impersonator.

I was heading home, late at night, cruising through a town on the way home, within speed limit, car 100% legal when an unmarked car behind me used a hailer telling to pull over, claiming they were the gardai. I ignored them until the blue lights came on but I was still cautious. Being close to the Garda station, and also truly seeing nowhere to safely pull over, I swung around the corner, across the junction and into the Garda station yard, ready with my.... "I needed a safe place to stop rather than back there on the bend" excuse. The "Garda" car cruised on by then acellerated away up the road. Went into the station and told them, when I described the car they went looking for it as they didn't have a car like that in the station......

Now I dunno what these guys wanted, but I am sure it wasn't a polite bit of conversation.

wouldnt it be a lot easier if he just paid his tax.

YES tbh I fully support impounding of cars for serious road offences, but i don't class TAX in this bracket. The fines are laughable though, usually a fine for no tax and insurance is only one third the actual cost of the tax and insurance. If caught driving an unsafe car (including no NCT even if the car is mint) and driving with no insurance i say take the cars. Up here they crush your car for no road tax, they lift it off the street, store it 2 weeks then crush it if you don't pay the fines and tax it. Works quite well to keep cars taxed.

ambro25

Mutz wrote:

Yes it is. Read back over people complaining about tax

I have read it and such people are trying to replicate the VRT thread, after a fashion. I'm sure you've had a read of the thread in question - there's no need to start this quagmire all over again.

Of course had the OP paid his car tax in time and received and displayed his disc on his windscreen, then we wouldn't be having this dicussion at all. So that's about the extent of it - what's more to say about the tax in the context of this thread?

Mutz wrote:

I'd agree with you if i were very paranoid. However, I'm not and I think anyone worth their salt could spot something dodgy.

Well, that would be lending the required power of observation... nay, divination to 100% of the population. So, are we all omniscient, that we always know what's dodgy and what's not?

There's a few bank managers that have been taken hostage over time for organised bank robbery by villains posing as cops - sure, a bank manager couldn't spot anything dodgy if it bit him or her in the ass, right?

I don't believe that exercising caution (due care, actually) in the context of 'having to give away' what is to most people their second biggest capital expenditure after a mortgage, is being paranoid.

Mutz wrote:

I think this I.D. debate revolves around people scraping the barrell, trying to get away with offences by any means or excuses possible.

Maybe in this instance, maybe not, maybe people will 'use' this ID thing in the way you allude, there's no telling. Indeed we don't know anything else about this particular instance than what the OP has stated in here. But I believe the discussion is being led on the assumption that the essential elements are factual: there was a uniformed person claiming to be a Guard but without valid ID wanting to seize another person's car. Fair enough?

Mutz wrote:

My point is that the o/p was fairly happy with the Garda being a genuine Garda operating a check point on his own. If he wasn't happy with the genuinity of teh Guard, why did he stop for him in the first place?

Obviously enough -
(i) because, before asking for ID, he has no idea whether the Guard is real or not,
(ii) and if the Guard happens to have ID and is a bona fide officer of the law, he'd be in a sh1t-heap more trouble for refusing to stop at a checkpoint, than not having his paperwork in order.

common sense, really

hermit

Bond-007 wrote:

That's fine, but the legality of a Garda being on duty without their official ID is relevant.

Thats fair enough. I wasn't discussing that point though.

Must they have their badge in order to perform their duty or does uniform with there station and ID number not suffice... (i'm not sure the answer to that).

If he didn't have his badge and it is required fair enough. If I was in the Gardas shoes I would have taken the car too. The OP was breaking the law - what right does he have to get "angry" about it (as stated in his initial post).

Anyways... we're only getting one side of the story... most likely he got thick with the Garda and the Garda decided **** you buddy and your attitude I'll use my discretion and take the car off you.

Esel

I thought you were only entitled to demand to see ID if the person claiming to be a member is not in uniform?

Random

I thought a Guard was always obliged to provide ID when requested to do so?

TJJP

yayamark wrote:

wouldnt it be a lot easier if he just paid his tax.

Yup, sounds like a bit less time on boards.ie and a bit more time on motortax.ie could be in order. In the meantime I'll pay my 1,343 and be happy to cover the OP's share... not.

A week or two out is fair game, but three months?

Tony Danza

If you get your car taken off you, does the guard actually just take your keys and drive off? Surely they should be loading it onto a transporter or something? If the car is getting taken off you it's because it's not on the road legally for whatever reason, why is it legal when a guard drives it? Also I wouldn't like the idea of some guard, who will probably just drive the sh*t out of the car, as if it was a garda car, clocking up miles and using up my fuel.

Wazdakka

Tony Danza wrote:

If you get your car taken off you, does the guard actually just take your keys and drive off? Surely they should be loading it onto a transporter or something?

I agree, they should definatly be loading the car. Not to mention if it was a single guard at the checkpoint, would he close a checkpoint that has the potential to find far more serious crimes, just because the OP's tax was a couple months out of date??

Tony Danza wrote:

why is it legal when a guard drives it?

Asfaik, Guards have special privelages when driving confiscated or otherwise aquired civillian cars, automatic insurance etc,

Our man in Havana

They would owe you a duty of care not to damage your car. What is the SOP for dealing with seized cars in this case? Garda drives car back to pound or a tow truck comes and takes it?

Turner

If the Garda drives it back i think you are charged about E90

If he gets it towed you are charged E135.

So by driving it he is doing you a favour.


As for being requested to provide identification.

111.—Where, in exercise of any power or the performance of any duty conferred or imposed by or under this Act, any member of the Garda Síochána makes in a public place a request, requirement or demand of, or gives an instruction to, any person, such person shall not be bound to comply with the request, requirement, demand or instruction unless the member either—

( a ) is in uniform, or

( b ) produces, if requested by such person, an official identification card or such other evidence of his identity as may be prescribed

BJ2007

Rabidlamb wrote:

There was a single guard stopping for tax & insurance close to where I work about a week ago. My tax was out by 2 months but I drove up to him expecting the "produce in 10 days line" then drive on. I almost died when he told that he was "taking possession of my vehicle", I got angry & refused to hand over the keys (not recommended).

He read me the riot act quoting every section in the book & even reached his hand in the window to trying to pull the keys out of the ignition. At this stage it just reduced to a shouting match with about 20 cars behind enjoying the spectacle.

Anyhow, I remembered what a friend of the wife once told me, "you can ask any guard for ID & if they dont produce it you are in your rights to ignore them". I put the ID question to the guard & he got all flustered then backed down with the "produce your tax within 10 days" line.

I got the tax sorted & went to the cop shop yesterday where I found that there had been no record of the incident & no flag against me or the car. The guard obviously didn't want the absence of ID brought up so never even wrote it up.

Maybe one to remember for your next checkpoint.

haha fair play to ya. i'd love to see that.!

Mutz

Chief--- wrote:

111.—Where, in exercise of any power or the performance of any duty conferred or imposed by or under this Act, any member of the Garda Síochána makes in a public place a request, requirement or demand of, or gives an instruction to, any person, such person shall not be bound to comply with the request, requirement, demand or instruction unless the member either—

( a ) is in uniform, or

( b ) produces, if requested by such person, an official identification card or such other evidence of his identity as may be prescribed

That's the answer so. Fact prooved that Gardai need ID and so the Guard was snookered unfortunately.

@ ambro25 - The o/p was actually encouraging people to be as abusive to Gardai as he was. He was caught with his pants down and he got nasty. Would you agree with the o/p to adopt this behaviour?

Mitch Connor

Mutz wrote:

That's the answer so. Fact prooved that Gardai need ID and so the Guard was snookered unfortunately.

@ ambro25 - The o/p was actually encouraging people to be as abusive to Gardai as he was. He was caught with his pants down and he got nasty. Would you agree with the o/p to adopt this behaviour?

doesn't it mean that he didn't need an ID, as he was in Uniform.

The act seems to state that you don't have to comply with the gardai unless they have ID OR are in uniform

Our man in Havana

They still must have their ID on them.

Turner

I would love to see a solicitor/barrister try and win a case in court looking to have it dismissed on the fact that a garda in uniform did not have their official identification on them.

It states clearyl in the act that somebody does not have to comply with a garda unless they are in uniform

or

[presuming they are not in uniform] they are requested to provide id and do not produce it.


When arrestig the usual type of scumbag they normally arrest the Gardai will usually arrest anyway using the necessary force they are allowed to use and not listen to any request from the person they are arresting.

Arresting a barrister for drink driving or a minister for dangerous driving they might watch their legal p's and q's lets say and do things by the book.

Our man in Havana

How do you know they are a bona fide Garda if they don't produce ID when requested? A uniform could be stolen, counterfeited etc.

There does seem to be something in the fact if they don't produce ID they can be disciplined. I was once challenged for a NCT cert on a car that was exempt from the NCT. He kept going on about at it till I asked for his name, station and Official ID. At this point he gave up, he didn't give me the requested information and I never heard a thing further about it.

Arresting a barrister for drink driving or a minister for dangerous driving they might watch their legal p's and q's lets say and do things by the book.

Proper order, but I would hope they would do things by the book at all times.

Rabidlamb

To be honest the asking for ID thing was only me grasping at straws.
It wouldn't have occured to me only he'd asked me first for my ID.

I've asking around about the cop & found that he's a "local community guard" who normally is seen walking the beat. That might explain the lack of a police car. My conspiricy theory is that as he was about 3 miles from the station he began stopping cars looking for some easy pickings so he'd have a ride back.

I wonder what would happen if a mother with 3 kids in the back was stopped for the same offence. There's obviously latitude given to the guards on this one. Remember the furore over the mother of 4 being imprisioned last year for not paying her TV licence.

I reckon that NI compterised system of collection is the best. Either that or just abolish road tax & put it on fuel. The more you drive & the less efficient your engine, the more you pay. Simple pay as you use solution. Only flaw there is that the sums would definately favour the revenue & we'd be worse off overall.

ambro25

Rabidlamb wrote:

Either that or just abolish road tax & put it on fuel. The more you drive & the less efficient your engine, the more you pay. Simple pay as you use solution.

Oh noes! Now look what you've done! The VRT thread™ gonna be happenin' again :eek:

Mutz wrote:

@ ambro25 - The o/p was actually encouraging people to be as abusive to Gardai as he was. He was caught with his pants down and he got nasty. Would you agree with the o/p to adopt this behaviour?

As stated in my first post, I am not going to engage on commenting about the OP being right or wrong. It all turns on the facts, of which we know very little.

I have personally used both types of "behaviour" on occasions. I am generally of the 'yes Sir, 3 bags full Sir' persuasion, unless the Officer is so far up his (or her) own @rse it's tickling his (or her) tonsils and my rights are being trampled on in the process. And from personal experience still, the latter is thankfully very rare - although the last instance was in this country, with 2 undercover cops.

templetonpeck

Rabidlamb wrote:

My conspiricy theory is that as he was about 3 miles from the station he began stopping cars looking for some easy pickings so he'd have a ride back.

LOL!! Could be. Though it also could be that your tax was three months out of date!

I bought a second hand car last week and have only driven it twice because it's not taxed and I can't tax it till the change of ownership is registered by the Dept of Environ. They've expedited my application so I should have my new Cert on Mon and can tax it then. I'm one of these eejits that's so careful about things, but knowing my luck I'd get stopped by a garda and my care confiscated

parsi

This is an interesting thread. It's strange to see folk quoting the law to suit themselves whilst ignoring that part which says "your car has to be taxed when on a public road.."

Once again it's the Celtic Tiger and the notion that everyone has rights but only other people have responsibilities.

If the OPs tale is accurate that must have been some muppet of a Guard !