Title Challenging Fans, do you fear Man United?

jank

marius wrote:

You mean the Giggs Scholes and Ronaldo in the premiership team of the season?

As they DID deliver. I suppose one can read it that way but you know what I ment

marius

jank wrote:

As they DID deliver. I suppose one can read it that way but you know what I ment

ahhh - phew, thought it was a bit weird, even read it a few times...:D

jank

jank wrote:

When is Saha ever not injured?! Him, being injured wasnt exactly a surprise. He is on the way out anyway

What are u talking about? Saha played and scored consistently up until around Christmas and then his knee gave in. Before that he played regularly. Are u trying to say that his being injured last season didnt affect the team? He was free scoring in the first team at the end of last season before RVN was sold too.


After he got injured we had to rely on Rooney and Rooney alone for long periods of the season. Ronaldo, Giggs, Smith and Ole played up there with him in phases.

jank

PHB wrote:

Wait, so injuries are either luck or aren't luck? Are you suggesting certain players are more injury prone than others?

Definately! Ever hear of Darren Anderton? Woodgate? Even Owen

Luck is part to do with it but some people are more prone to it then others.
Henry was never injured up to last year, mainly due to his natrual athletic body.

Its also due to their mental strength to overcome these injuries.

This is Football 101 stuff

PHB wrote:

Maybe the reason Chelsea had a huge amount of injuries wasn't to do with just plain old luck, it's to do with certain players being more injury prone than other players, in which case, surely the same situation is likely?

Maybe but id say Cech could go another 5 years without missing a game, Will Saha do the same. You couldnt expect him to go 5 months without some lay off.

PHB wrote:

There used to be a time where people didn't consider not getting injuries lucky, they thought it was to do with being physically fit and utilising good squad rotation. Chelsea never did the latter when they were on top, played the same 11 as much as possible. Maybe that's why their players got injured.

Maybe, but they did well for the 2 years previous to last year no?
Playing more games makes you tired and that makes you more prone to injuries ill except that.

PHB wrote:

People say stuff like, well if Ronaldo had gotten injured..... He didn't get injured, and that's not just due to luck.

I didnt say anything about ronaldo.

Saying that all players have the same capacity to be injured or not injured is a ridiculous statement. It has by your own admission (fitness!) do to with many other things.

Luck, Mentallity, Physicallity, even genetics.

Some people have stronger hamstrings then others its a fact of life and its a fact of life that there are footballers no matter how gifted will always be injury prone and id put saha in that catagory.

jank

What are u talking about? Saha played and scored consistently up until around Christmas and then his knee gave in.

Yea he played for a while and then got injured, whats that problem?, whats the arguement?

Before that he played regularly. Are u trying to say that his being injured last season didnt affect the team?

No, where did i say that or you reading into something not there?

He was free scoring in the first team at the end of last season before RVN was sold too.

Yea did quite well for untied until he got (surprise!) injured

After he got injured we had to rely on Rooney and Rooney alone for long periods of the season. Ronaldo, Giggs, Smith and Ole played up there with him in phases.

I agree.

jank

jank wrote:

Yea he played for a while and then got injured, whats that problem?, whats the arguement?

U were implying that the loss of Saha was no big deal cos he "always" gets injured but Im saying that he played almost injury free for a year between Xmas 05 and Jan 07 and scored a lot of goals. We then sold RVN and were relying on Saha to continue scorign goals hence his loss to injury had an adverse effect on our play.

PHB

Saying that all players have the same capacity to be injured or not injured is a ridiculous statement. It has by your own admission (fitness!) do to with many other things.

Luck, Mentallity, Physicallity, even genetics.

Indeed it is, yet you persist with statements like, if Cech had not have gotten injured, you think Chelsea would have won the title. The simple fact is, he did get injured, and other players got injured. That's not United getting lucky, it's to do with Chelsea making decisions which have consequences, and players making decisions which have consequences, Cech included.

jank

U were implying that the loss of Saha was no big deal cos he "always" gets injured but Im saying that he played almost injury free for a year between Xmas 05 and Jan 07 and scored a lot of goals. We then sold RVN and were relying on Saha to continue scorign goals hence his loss to injury had an adverse effect on our play.

No i wasnt and nowhere did I mention that it wasnt a big deal at all. I didnt even mention him with regards a title challenge. Didnt they have Larson to pick it up a bit no? I was commenting on him being injured mustn't have surprised many, hence why fergie wants him out!

ndeed it is, yet you persist with statements like, if Cech had not have gotten injured, you think Chelsea would have won the title. The simple fact is, he did get injured, and other players got injured. That's not United getting lucky, it's to do with Chelsea making decisions which have consequences, and players making decisions which have consequences, Cech included.

Its my opinon (shared by many though), like yours (shared by others).

I fail to see how Stephen Hunts challenge on Cech was the result of decisons Chelsea made. It was a freak injury one that is very rare, hardly Chelsea's fault for not using sqaud rotation is it?

PHB

no, but it was Cech's fault for the style of goalie he is. Brave players are more likely to get injured, it's a cost-benefit analysis. He knew the risks when he went in for the tackle, other goalies might not have done that. It's a pro and con to him as a player.

jank

PHB wrote:

no, but it was Cech's fault for the style of goalie he is. Brave players are more likely to get injured, it's a cost-benefit analysis. He knew the risks when he went in for the tackle, other goalies might not have done that. It's a pro and con to him as a player.

Cechs fault? Dont know about that.
Dont think I have heard anbody saying that it was his fault, I get what your trying to say but why get out of bed iof your afraid something will happen to you. Its like saying you drive a car so its your fault you die in a car crash, even though another car hit you as it was speeding.

Again I get what you are saying but your logic goes a bit far feteched

PHB

I'm not suggesting he shouldn't do it, it's what makes him a great player. But it's part of him as a player, and to an extent, it's his fault. Could it happen again? If he goes in for challenges like that then yes?

Terry is a great defender because he is brave, but he could also get a serious head injury, like the kick he got against Liverpool. Would I suggest he change his style of play? No, but then again, Ferdinand or Carvalho are less likely to get injured than him.

The point is, when people get injuries on the pitch, it's almost always to do with themselves, or their style of play. When you say if Cech wasn't injured, the simple fact is, he was injured, and that will happen if he plays like that. It's not about luck, it's about the person. It's why Saha gets injured so often, it's because of his style of play, and his level of fitness. To say, United would have won the league easily with Saha fit, is an utterly pointless statement, as he got injured because of the style of player he is.

marius

oops... wrong thread...

Mr Alan

quite simply . . . . no.

Looking forward to it

marius

marius wrote:

looks like it is getting closer - fergie certainly seems confident enough...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/teams/m/man_utd/6276064.stm

Can u copy and paste this, cant access in work....

LegacyUser

There ya go...

Manchester United boss Sir Alex Ferguson says the club are close to signing Carlos Tevez from West Ham.

The 23-year-old Argentine striker agreed personal terms with United last week, according to his representatives.

The Premier League says the transfer must be "done directly" with West Ham rather than his agent Kia Joorabchian.

Ferguson said: "We are in negotiations and want to make sure there are no side issues. The essential parts are agreed. Hopefully it will be finalised soon."

He added: "Club solicitor Maurice Watkins has been working on it for a month, maybe more, to make sure the deal is perfectly clear.

"To be honest, I thought it would have all been sorted by the weekend just gone. It must be the Premier League that is holding it up.


606: DEBATE
What do you make of Man Utd's possible signing of Carlos Tevez?

"From what chief executive David Gill and Maurice said, everything was ready to go. Unless something is being held back from us, I don't know of anything that is holding it up."

However, last week West Ham chairman Eggert Magnusson insisted Tevez is a registered Hammers player and is expected to return for the new season.

But Joorabchian's lawyers say the deal has progressed with the "knowledge and permission" of the Upton Park outfit.

Tevez has made no secret of his desire to move to Old Trafford, a proposed transfer he has described as a "dream", and it appears it has taken a step closer to being realised.

He was involved in the saga that led to West Ham being fined £5m for breaching transfer rules, although they crucially escaped a points deduction.

The Premier League wants to ensure Joorabchian is not paid any of the fee after previous questions over the Argentine forward's "ownership".

And the waters are further muddied by the fact that West Ham, who insist they cut all ties with Joorabchian after they were fined in April, expect Tevez to return to east London after he concludes his international duties at the Copa America in Venezuela.

Magnusson said earlier this month: "Carlos Tevez is a registered West Ham player, contracted to the club until June 2010.

"There is no agreement with West Ham for Carlos Tevez to leave the club and we expect him to return in time for next season's preparations.

"No decision on his future can be reached without the agreement of West Ham."

One possible avenue would be for West Ham to be paid a transfer fee and then agree a compensation figure with Joorabchian for breaching contracts with his company, Media Sports Investments (MSI), when the Hammers terminated third-party agreements following their fine.

However, it is understood the League would want a substantial chunk of the transfer fee to remain at West Ham rather than it all be handed over to MSI in compensation.

If that was the case, they could be accused of merely covering up the third-party agreements that have caused so much controversy.

jank

and to an extent, it's his fault

Is it his fault he is a footballer?

Attractive Nun

PHB wrote:

I'm not suggesting he shouldn't do it, it's what makes him a great player. But it's part of him as a player, and to an extent, it's his fault. Could it happen again? If he goes in for challenges like that then yes?

Terry is a great defender because he is brave, but he could also get a serious head injury, like the kick he got against Liverpool. Would I suggest he change his style of play? No, but then again, Ferdinand or Carvalho are less likely to get injured than him.

The point is, when people get injuries on the pitch, it's almost always to do with themselves, or their style of play. When you say if Cech wasn't injured, the simple fact is, he was injured, and that will happen if he plays like that. It's not about luck, it's about the person. It's why Saha gets injured so often, it's because of his style of play, and his level of fitness. To say, United would have won the league easily with Saha fit, is an utterly pointless statement, as he got injured because of the style of player he is.

I really think you're going too far with this. Yes, injuries can have a lot to do with style of play and the physical attributes of players (like a weak hamstring or whatever), and Louis Saha is a perfect example of a player that is very likely to pick up injuries. However, to say - as you seem to be - that injuries have nothing to do with luck is ridiculous. Yes, Petr Cech is a brave keeper and he is more likely to get injured than less brave keepers, but it is far from inevitable that he's going to end up with a fractured skull that keeps him out for 3 months. If that freak accident hadn't happened, Cech would likely have been fit for the whole season, though of course he might not have been. Added to that, it's even more unlucky that Cudicini was injured in the same period leaving Hilario in goals. From Chelsea's point of view, that is very unfortunate - regardless of the type of people Cech and Cudicini are.

Likewise, it was bad luck that Gary Neville, Rio Ferdinand, Nemanja Vidic and Patrice Evra all had injuries (or were recovering from injury) at the same time when United played AC Milan in the San Siro. If that match had been a week later, three of the four would have been more or less fully fit and might have changed the complexion of that match. It's silly to blame a poor season on injuries, because injuries are inevitable and part of football - but to deny that United were in some way lucky that they had no majorly damaging injuries (with the exception perhaps of Saha) is just unfair IMO. With the amount of fouls Ronaldo had to endure throughout the season, for example, it's a wonder he wasn't injured. Part of that is to do with his physical fitness, part of it is to do with the fact that he's not really a hard-tackling, all-or-nothing player going for 50/50 balls etc, but a good part of it is still sheer luck, because a boot to the ankle or the knee, or even just an awkward fall, can do some real damage that not even the most thorough fitness preparation can prevent.

cheesedude

cheesedude wrote:

There ya go...

Thankin u kindly. Heard Fergie talkin about this a bit on the radio earlier.

AnCapaillMor

I was more worried when they signed Veron and RVN after they'd won the title the 3rd time running.

marius

AnCapaillMor wrote:

I was more worried when they signed Veron and RVN after they'd won the title the 3rd time running.

I think this is a key point, while UTD have certainly got three excellent new players - and possibly four, these guys will take time to settle in and one or more may well turn out to be a flop....

tbh I think utd will be a bigger threat in the 08/09 season then they will be this time round, even if they add no-one to the squad after this season....

having said that - utd can still feild the same team as they did last year.....just with a much stronger bench...

PHB

I really think you're going too far with this. Yes, injuries can have a lot to do with style of play and the physical attributes of players (like a weak hamstring or whatever), and Louis Saha is a perfect example of a player that is very likely to pick up injuries. However, to say - as you seem to be - that injuries have nothing to do with luck is ridiculous

Yeh fair enough, I was just trying to make the point. There is luck in relation to when you get the injury, but not really in relation to if you get an injury at some point if you get my distinction. So to say that Chelsea were unlucky that Cech got injured, is like next year saying that Chelsea were lucky that Cech didn't get injured. Both statements are true, but it's a pretty pointless thing to say.

PHB

I think this is a key point, while UTD have certainly got three excellent new players - and possibly four, these guys will take time to settle in and one or more may well turn out to be a flop....

Won't the same apply to Liverpool, even more so, because Liverpools players will be coming in as first choice, compared to United's, who all have to break into the squad (bar maybe Tevez)

marius

PHB wrote:

Won't the same apply to Liverpool, even more so, because Liverpools players will be coming in as first choice, compared to United's, who all have to break into the squad (bar maybe Tevez)

yep, which is why i said

'having said that - utd can still feild the same team as they did last year.....just with a much stronger bench...'

thebaz

United will be red hot favorites to win the PL , and i fancy them to win the Champions league as well --

United have completly revamped there squad

Arsenal are in free fall , unless Dein returns soon , Spurs will overtake them in the top 4;

Chelsea -- will be weaker , replacing the aging Makelele with Sidwell

Liverpool -- will improve marginally with Tevez in for Bellamy , but a long way short of Man U .

Team to watch Spurs

Aquos76

thebaz wrote:

United will be red hot favorites to win the PL , and i fancy them to win the Champions league as well --

Liverpool -- will improve marginally with Tevez in for Bellamy , but a long way short of Man U .

Team to watch Spurs

Ah jasus, I thought Man U had a deal wrapped up for Tevez, dunno how I missed him signing for liverpool. Surely with Torres and Tevez now Liverpool should be favourites.;)

thebaz

Aquos76 wrote:

Ah jasus, I thought Man U had a deal wrapped up for Tevez, dunno how I missed him signing for liverpool. Surely with Torres and Tevez now Liverpool should be favourites.;)

i get confused with all these foreign names -- and my T's

Fuzzy_Dunlop

thebaz wrote:

Arsenal are in free fall , unless Dein returns soon , Spurs will overtake them in the top 4;

I don't understand where people keep getting this idea, arsenal still have a better team in all areas except possibly for Berbatov and Lennon, last year arsenal finished comfortably ahead of them with Van Persie and Henry missing for half a season(and while henry is now gone for good, at least theres more hope of replacing him somewhat instead of Baptista), and I'm sure Wenger will add more to the squad before the transfer window closes. Also arsenal's team should be better as a whole with more experience under their belt
I don't see how Fabregas would go to Real, and he won't go to Barca(yet) as they have just bought Yaya toure and already have Xavi, Iniesta, Deco etc.

thebaz

playa3 wrote:

I don't understand where people keep getting this idea, arsenal still have a better team in all areas except possibly for Berbatov and Lennon, last year arsenal finished comfortably ahead of them with Van Persie and Henry missing for half a season(and while henry is now gone for good, at least theres more hope of replacing him somewhat instead of Baptista), and I'm sure Wenger will add more to the squad before the transfer window closes. Also arsenal's team should be better as a whole with more experience under their belt
I don't see how Fabregas would go to Real, and he won't go to Barca(yet) as they have just bought Yaya toure and already have Xavi, Iniesta, Deco etc.

Arsenal have wonderfull youth, and a great manager in Wegner , but they lack experince since Adams, Keown Viera gone, and now Henry -- they'll still struggle up at Blackburn , everton etc for that reason -- soft and inexpierenced for dirty battles -- and i think Wegner will leave at the end of the year if Dein doesn't come back , and that will destabilise them , as well.

Fuzzy_Dunlop

Yeah i can see what you mean to some extent, but why is it you think this year that Spurs will suddenly leap frog them?

playa3

playa3 wrote:

Yeah i can see what you mean to some extent, but why is it you think this year that Spurs will suddenly leap frog them?

Spurs have a great attacking line Berbatov, Bent, Keane, Defoe...good complements.


They were a bit unlucky last year, plus karma owes them for 2 years ago!!!

thebaz

playa3 wrote:

Yeah i can see what you mean to some extent, but why is it you think this year that Spurs will suddenly leap frog them?

i think the whole Dein/Wegner thing needs to get sorted quick, or it will destabilise the club seriously -- Spurs look stable, and year by year , i think Jol is improving the team -- if Dein doesn't return, Wegner wont sign a contract and will leave at the end of the year , and Arsenal will fall out of the big 4 -- guaranteed , like my team everton did years ago, Portsmouth have more money than us now, and will steal Nugent from us.

Reganio 2

I don't fear United will run away with the league especially with their defense.


Also Tottenham won't challange the top 4 unless Arsenal do what they are expected to do and be crap. Tottenham are very over rated IMO.

Mitch Connor

Reganio 2 wrote:

I don't fear United will run away with the league especially with their defense.


Also Tottenham won't challange the top 4 unless Arsenal do what they are expected to do and be crap. Tottenham are very over rated IMO.

oh - the defence that was one of the tightest in the league - even with the right back (and captain) out for most of the season, and Rio and Vidic missing a few towards the end of the season?

AnCapaillMor

Deleted User wrote:

plus karma owes them for 2 years ago!!!

I thought it was curry.

Mr Alan

Tauren wrote:

oh - the defence that was one of the tightest in the league - even with the right back (and captain) out for most of the season, and Rio and Vidic missing a few towards the end of the season?

yep - thats the one

PHB

I don't see how people could write off Arsenal, still 3rd favorites imo for the league.

DSB

Agreed.