Boeing 787 roll out

JSK 252

The rollout event for the 787 dreamliner will be available for the world to view.

It will be available as I live webcast through the internet by going to www.boeing.com and will be broadcasted on the 8th of July (this Sunday) at 11:30PM London time.

I cant wait for this.:D

Whats your opinions on the new plane?

ImDave

fantastic looking aircraft with good range and capacity. There is a huge number of orders, I think 642 firm, compared the 163 firm orders for the a380. It will be interesting to see can boeing deliver on time. First deliveries are due next year.

Captain Chaos

You can't really compare the oders of the 787 to the A380, the two aircraft are in different classes. I can see the A380 as a bit of a white elephant.

I will be interesting to see how the A350 and 787 will stack up to each other though. There is 210 orders for the A350 and its not due till 2013.

electric69

very nice looking interior

Kevster

I was actually surprised to learn that the maximum range achievabe by the 787 is greater than the range for the A380; only by a few hundred meters though. For some reason, I had it figured that the A380 would be capable of greater distances.

jonny68

Boeing gets 35 new orders for its 787 Dreamliner
Bloomberg News, Reuters, The Associated Press
Published: July 8, 2007


SEATTLE: Boeing announced 35 new orders for its 787 Dreamliner on the eve of its Sunday unveiling of the new commercial jet.

Air Berlin ordered 25 and ALAFCO Aviation Lease & Finance of Kuwait is taking 10, Boeing said Saturday. Together, the orders are valued at $5.62 billion, or €4.12 billion, at list prices, although customers typically negotiate discounts.

The mid-sized 787, seating between 210 to 330 passengers, will be the world's first commercial jetliner made mostly of carbon-fiber composites, which are lighter and sturdier than aluminum. Boeing has said that this and other technological advances will make the 787 more fuel-efficient and cheaper to maintain.

"It means more frequency, more point-to-point routes and fewer changes at big hub airports," said Richard Aboulafia, at Teal Group, an aerospace consulting firm. "Anyone who changes planes regularly at Heathrow, Narita or Frankfurt can be grateful."

Boeing now has orders for 677 of the new 787s from 47 customers. The new plane's first flight is scheduled for later this year, with the first delivery to a customer, All Nippon Airways of Japan, in May 2008.
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Air Berlin's order is the largest single order placed by any European carrier, Boeing said. The airline also secured 10 options and 15 purchase rights for additional 787s, Boeing said.

The low-fare airline is looking to add long-haul destinations to its route network with the addition of the mid-sized, long-range 787s, which can easily reach Asia and the United States from Germany.

The new jet was scheduled to make its public debut Sunday in Everett, Washington, about 30 miles, or 50 kilometers, north of Seattle, where the planes are assembled. After the unveiling, Boeing will have eight months to prove that the plane is ready for commercial use, making the Dreamliner's test-flight program the shortest in the company's 90-year history.

"The flight test will be the moment of truth," said Craig Fraser, an analyst at Fitch Ratings in New York. "That's what people are really focusing on. Does it go from a positive story to a very positive story or slide into trouble?"

The 787 Dreamliner is Boeing's first new jetliner since 1995 and so far has been its most successful. The world's second-largest maker of commercial aircraft is counting on the 787 to win back leadership of the $60 billion-a-year jetliner market from Airbus. Airbus's competing A350 XWB will enter service in 2013, five years after the Dreamliner.

The 787, approved by Boeing's board in 2003, has cost $10 billion to develop, according to Paul Nisbet, an analyst at JSA Research in Newport, Rhode Island.

The Dreamliner's debut was timed to coincide with the 60th anniversary of the first flight for the 377 Stratocruiser, which was the first Boeing plane to sell successfully to non-U.S. airlines. The Stratocruiser used cutting-edge technology of the period to let it fly above the weather.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/07/08/business/boeing.php

highlydebased

They organised a large flypast with one of each member of the boeing 'Family'-

Omega Air Tanker B707
Air Tran B717
Fedex B727
Air Alaska B737
Rolls Royce test bed B747
Continental B757
Delta B767
Air France B777


Would love to have been there so see it. Probably an impressive sight!

DennisZ

JSK 252 wrote:

The rollout event for the 787 dreamliner

that was more like "roll-in" event

lostexpectation

Neon-Circles wrote:

They organised a large flypast with one of each member of the boeing 'Family'-

Omega Air Tanker B707
Air Tran B717
Fedex B727
Air Alaska B737
Rolls Royce test bed B747
Continental B757
Delta B767
Air France B777



Would love to have been there so see it. Probably an impressive sight!

but not a 787 flypast

pclancy

Was a pretty uninteresing webcast i thought! Liked the "big slow airbus" jibe though did anyone hear that? :d

highlydebased

Yes I saw that....funny! And the Kasakstani guys getting on the plane in Gdansk with onion sandwiches lol!

For those who have not watched it- its well worth it. an hour or so long...

aquinas

All might see good and well. But some people like myself will not ever get into that particular plane.

See theis entry in the blog to see why:

http://www.protocolsolutions.co.uk/wordpress/?p=8

JSK 252 wrote: »

The rollout event for the 787 dreamliner will be available for the world to view.

It will be available as I live webcast through the internet by going to www.boeing.com and will be broadcasted on the 8th of July (this Sunday) at 11:30PM London time.

I cant wait for this.:D

Whats your opinions on the new plane?

Captain Chaos

That story is utter BS and is the usuall media nonsense mis-understanding the facts and makinging up their own story, its been all over the papers the past few days with only papers like the Times giving the true facts.

Seriously, how mind numbingly stupid do you think Boeing is, these are completely seperate networks on the plane, the flight controlls, avonics and communications will be the same secure system as past Boeing airliners like the late 767s and the 777 series but updated. The public internet access will be on a completely seperate system.

aquinas

Oh really? Is that right now? So your saying that the FAA is lying ?

See here http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7179823.stm

and here http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2008/01/07/1199554534790.html

and here :

http://dailyscooponline.blogspot.com/2008/01/new-boeing-787-vulnerable-to-hacking.html

and here :

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,321326,00.html


I can list an awful more if you like, but this is true that Boeing actually has inflight internet access , that connect to the planes control, navigation and communication systems.

I will agree with one thing that "boeing are stupid".


Do get your facts right before commenting...

dogmatix

In terms of looks i'm not so sure I like this aircraft. I mean whats with those hideous looking wings in the artists images? They look like they are about to start flapping or perhaps if they bend upwards anymore they might snap. Is this a new design feature on the latest airliners - super flexible wings?

The front of the airliner looks like a heavily modified 757. No - the more I think about the more I do not like the looks of this plane, beauty being in the eye of the beholder and the like. No doubt it will be a comfortable ride and very economic to operate.

Boeing are also having delay/supply issues with the 787, although nothing as serious as the A380 had.

cyrusdvirus

aquinas wrote: »

Do get your facts right before commenting...

Do make sure your source is accurate before posting......

Your first source said Boeing has ordered 800 of this aircraft. Funny that, considering they're buliding the thing....

At the heart of the BBC link are 2 facts.
Fact 1) Boeing has been ordered by the FAA to make sure that the aircraft control systems cannot be hacked.

My Opinion 1) I'd be fairly certain that Boeing had taken this into consideration. It'd be kinda like the Pentagon ordering Boeing to not let the designs for their sections of the B2 get posted onto the internet. It's called covering your ass.

Fact 2)

Some Boeing Guy wrote:

We have already reached agreement with the FAA on the documentation, analysis and demonstrations necessary to show compliance with this special condition

My Opinion 2) So in otherwords Boeing were aware of this requirement(:eek:large company thinking for itself without government handholding:eek:)
And can show compliance..... Hmmmm

Do get back to me on this if you would. I fancy an internet handbags argument!!

pclancy

Lol anyone that posts any kind of link from Fox cannot call that source credible, if a fox news reporter told me Ireland was in Europe Id double check myself to make sure....:) Also note their use of words "TERRORISTS COULD HACK NEW BOEING JETLINER", these are the people that fill the minds of americans with daily bull**** about how much danger and fear they should be living in....justying the "WAR ON TERROR" with stories and rumours with no factual evidence to keep the population scared. Compare their sensationalist reporting of this story to the BBCs calm and reserved story.

I fail to see how you'll be able to sit on board with a laptop and quietly reprogram the planes FMC to fly you somewhere or fire up FSX and take over the planes cockpit....the IT systems for giving passengers net access and the systems controlling the plane would be totally different languages, protocols and physically on a different network, boeing wouldnt be that thick to have everything running out of a HP Proliant in the tail

This whole thing has been jumped on by the media, especially the warmongers at Fox.

aquinas

Yes,

The first source qouted as saying 800 are on order. It might seem strage but the fact is that even though Boeing make this and may other planes, when they say "on order" or "added to order" they usally mean an order is added to an existing backlog. Or in other caes they mean a goverment or large country placed an order. It depends on the context used.

With regards to you opinion, which you ar of course entitled to, I dont agree with it because large companies and even HMG do make massive screwups regularly.


Like this : http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/s/1031694_personal_info_lost_in_oldham

Take for example the 25million child benifit details "lost" by the UK goverment.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?view=DETAILS&grid=&xml=/news/2008/01/03/ndata203.xml

OR
3 million driver details "lost" like here :

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politics/article3260715.ece


Or losing 160,000 names and addresses like this :
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,22968818-5005961,00.html


On opinion 2, I would personally have no faith in any goverment, without oversight.


Oh...I will wait for your response...lol

gatecrash wrote: »

Do make sure your source is accurate before posting......

Your first source said Boeing has ordered 800 of this aircraft. Funny that, considering they're buliding the thing....

At the heart of the BBC link are 2 facts.
Fact 1) Boeing has been ordered by the FAA to make sure that the aircraft control systems cannot be hacked.

My Opinion 1) I'd be fairly certain that Boeing had taken this into consideration. It'd be kinda like the Pentagon ordering Boeing to not let the designs for their sections of the B2 get posted onto the internet. It's called covering your ass.

Fact 2)

My Opinion 2) So in otherwords Boeing were aware of this requirement(:eek:large company thinking for itself without government handholding:eek:)
And can show compliance..... Hmmmm

Do get back to me on this if you would. I fancy an internet handbags argument!!

cyrusdvirus

WHOOOOPEEEEEE!!!!!!!

Your first source wrote:

Boeing has ordered 800 new 787 planes.

You wrote:

The first source qouted as saying 800 are on order.

At least be consistent will ya!!

The facts are that Beoing were aware of the requirements of the FAA. After all they've been making planes for longer than you and I have been alive. I'm sure that this gives them a little bit of knowledge as to how things work in this line of things!!
I'm taking issue with the unhelpful scare-mongering of people with exactly that....a little bit of knowldege... Your sources are 2 blogs, and some site called DailyScoopOnline. They sound MIGHTY impressive.

The 2 somewhat more reputable sites that you selectively quote from, BBC and tha Age, both acknowledge that Boeing was aware of the criteria established and has safeguards in place.

If i wasn't busy and had the time I'm sure that i could trawl the internet and find examples of Big businesses and governments (well maybe not Bertie's bunch but that's for another day and another forum!! ) doing the right thing too.

aquinas

I am trying to be consistant lol !

Go on, I dare you....find me sources to back up what you saying.


Telling me I am being selective....no i dont see it like that, you would hardly expect me to qoute exactly the entire post(s) and or articles.

cyrusdvirus

aquinas wrote: »

Telling me I am being selective....no i dont see it like that, you would hardly expect me to qoute exactly the entire post(s) and or articles.

What is that if not selective?? or was it selective reading that led you to your opinion??

pclancy

Lads what are ye on about?

Regardless of the articles quoted do ye both think the plane's systems are in danger of hacking by passenegers or not?

aquinas

Yes,

I honestly believe that the 787 planes with onboard internet access are vulnerable to being hacked.

I for one know what I am talking about because network security and penetration testing is mainly what my job is about.

pclancy

How do you reckon it could work though? As I said I couldnt see how a laptop for example could possibly interface with the planes own flight control or navigation systems? Are we taking at machine code level or some kind of unix stuff or what?

Surely the internet would just be a somekind of wireless router or cabled system to provide for the laptops, going to a network switch and then out to the internet through a sat connection of some kind? Why would this system be linked in any way to the planes own control systems...?

cyrusdvirus

pclancy wrote: »

Lads what are ye on about?

Regardless of the articles quoted do ye both think the plane's systems are in danger of hacking by passenegers or not?

No, I don't.

aquinas

I will have to check that bit out.

Am not really confident of Boeing giving that tastly bit of info out.

But I will post it , when I find out.

pclancy

Well if its Boeing its probably the same technology they had going with Connexion, presumably updated since it was tried before...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Connexion_by_Boeing

aquinas

Have you read this anyway :

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gxFofZtleD3dukggvPzTLpSsNNaQD8U2KAB00


To qoute Bruce Schneier :"The odds of this being perfect are zero," said Bruce Schneier, chief technology officer at the security services firm BT Counterpane. "It's possible Boeing can make their connection to the Internet secure. If they do, it will be the first time in mankind anyone's done that.


And on top of that :

Boeing rival Airbus SAS argues that the only way to satisfy the new requirement would be to physically separate the passenger information and entertainment systems from all other systems on the plane.
Airbus told the FAA in a written comment that such a solution "is not technically and operationally viable."
Gunter declined to specify exactly how and to what degree the 787's computer networks are separated.
"One of the things you do to ensure security is not talk about the protections in any great detail," she said


On the above, that is absolute rubbish from Gunther. An open and independant review of the security would only be acceptable.

cyrusdvirus

There is no rhyme or reason for the aircraft controls to be linked in any way to the customers internet systems. As a security specialist you should know this!!

aquinas

Thats my whole point.

cyrusdvirus

Ok, now I'm confused.

Boeing have stated that they will not be linked.

You agree that there is no reason for them to be linked. You have a statement from the company to verify that they will not be linked. What then are we handbagging about??