Stopped over VRT

kevinmcc

I live in Derry (originally from Donegal) and was coming down to Donegal last night and got stopped at Garda checkpoint. I have a irish driving licence, never changed it as its valid north and south, my insurance is held in the south as I am a named driver on my dads policy so it works out cheaper, again I am covered north and south of the border. My car is registered to a garage in Derry, not in my own name but holds valid NI tax. He comes over and says I see you are driving a foreign vehicle! So the Garda asked me why my insurance was held in Donegal, I said as you can appreciate it is cheaper as a named driver and I can still drive legally north and south. Then he wasn't happy when he heard I wasn't the registered owner. He wanted a letter from Revenue to say that I lived in Derry?? then he changed it and said he wanted me to produce a certificate from Revenue to state that the vehicle was exempt from VRT within 10 days or he would impound it next time he seen it. I said I can tell you now I won't be producing the poxy cert, I live in Derry and I'm not coming down here to sort out a cert so I can just drive it around. I said I wasn't the registered owner so you can't, and told him to run a registration check if he didn't believe me. Then he just said if he seen me in it again he could assume I was the owner (i take it this is him bull****ting?). And I take it he actually has to prove I'm living in Donegal? He then said the car would be passed to the VRT office when it is impounded and it would be up to them to decide. I said and guess what - they will have to release it to the registered owner who lives in Derry.. he was fuming as was I but am I right in assuming they can't impound me or if they do it's only a matter for the registered owner to get it released?

Seth Brundle

RoI licence with RoI address, RoI insurance, no evidence to prove you lived in NI.
If you were the garda, would you have beleved the story?

DublinDilbert

Yes he can take the car off you.... more than likely he will get revenue to do it... When the revenue is involved they can just take it on the spot, and its up to you to provide relevant documentation to get your car back... Although if the car is not worth much money the revenue will not bother with it, do you mind me asking what type of car it is?

no point asking a garda to check a NI reg as he would have to contact the PSNI ect, and I'm not sure if they formally exchange information yet...


Just to confirm, your a named driver on a policy in the ROI, which covers you to drive a car which is owned by a garage ( a 3rd party i presume ).... to be honest your insurance situation sounds a bit doggy, he could probably take the car off you for that alone....

Henry Ford III

I agree your insurance cover position looks marginal.

JHMEG

Some companies, Quinn Direct for example, don't really distinguish between juristictions on the island of Ireland. They do treat GB and futher afield differently tho.

jhegarty

I can't figure out from the post , who actually owns the car ?

kevinmcc

The car is a new astra. The registered owner is a third party in derry (whom I know). The insurance is fine, the registration number is the english reg plate number on the certificate of insurance, but the car is legally insured to be driven north and south. When I produced the cert of insurance today the Garda said that my insurance was valid on that vehicle north and south, he then said that legally it couldn't be taxed in the north and insured in the south, that I was trying to pull a fast one, he had to pay 9 grand to clear his bla bla bla... Though I don't see why it can't be taxed in the north and insured in the south so long as the insurance covers me both north and south and I don't see any reference as to where this is the law.

Needless to say I'll now go ahead and try and sort out a NI licence but from what I've read it's quite difficult as I have a northern bank account but the bank would only put my southern address on it and not my northern and I need a bank statement with my northern address :mad:

.Longshanks.

I'm lost....:(

jhegarty

Why isn't car in your name ?

Why can't you get a bank statement in derry , if you really live there ?

Seth Brundle

kevinmcc wrote:

The car is a new astra. The registered owner is a third party in derry (whom I know). The insurance is fine, the registration number is the english reg plate number on the certificate of insurance, but the car is legally insured to be driven north and south. When I produced the cert of insurance today the Garda said that my insurance was valid on that vehicle north and south, he then said that legally it couldn't be taxed in the north and insured in the south, that I was trying to pull a fast one, he had to pay 9 grand to clear his bla bla bla... Though I don't see why it can't be taxed in the north and insured in the south so long as the insurance covers me both north and south and I don't see any reference as to where this is the law.

Needless to say I'll now go ahead and try and sort out a NI licence but from what I've read it's quite difficult as I have a northern bank account but the bank would only put my southern address on it and not my northern and I need a bank statement with my northern address :mad:

Are you expressing your opinions on the various legalities?
What address is on the insurance policy? Your NI or your RoI address?
What address do you pay your income tax to - your NI or your RoI address?
Does the insurance company know that you are not the owner of the insured car?

Many insurance policies in one jurisdiction cover you in the other jurisdiction - but for a limited time only - check what your policy says.

OKenora

The law is simple, if you are a Northern resident you should have a Northern licence and then you would have no problem with driving a Northern car. There is a grace period of 12 months after you move north in which you can use your Southern licence but then it has to exchanged over.

I can understand the Garda being sceptical as you have no proof of Northern residence at all, even having a Northern bank account at a Southern address, if you actually lived here it would be at a Northern address surely ? Bank accounts with addresses not in Northern Ireland are called NON_RESIDENT accounts, there's a hint in there somewhere........To apply for a Northern licence you need proof of address, you say thats a bank statement (which yours won't suffice for) but a Phone bill, Electricity bill or any other official mail would do as well, have you got any of them ?

All I can say is it does sound to me like you are driving this car to avoid VRT and cannot prove Northern residence as you don't live there. Where the car is registered is not the point. If the car is obviously being used in the Republic by a resident of the Republic then the registered owner is only one of convenience and will be seen as being that way for the purposes of VRT avoidance.

kevinmcc

Yes I have inland revenue statements but they send them to my ROI address:mad: i'm just not sure how I'm supposed to get it changed to a Northern licence as the bank will likely require proof that I live in Derry - by providing a utility bill, which I don't have in my name as to get utility bills you need to show them a bank statement etc so one company relies on the other.

My insurance policy covers me north and south no limited times etc..And yes they know I'm not the registered owner

And they cannot prove that I live in the South so it works both ways. When a Garda asked me first of all to get a letter from the Revenue Commissioners to say that I live in Derry he obviously doesn't know much :rolleyes:

When stopped at PSNI checkpoints they have absolutely no problem with any of it and even Garda Traffic Corps.

Henry Ford III

If you live in Derry you can presumably prove it? Do you pay rent or a mortgage?

What about utility bills?

Sorry but I'm suspicious.

JHMEG

If the car belongs to someone in Derry then it doesn't matter a damn what country the driver is from. No VRT is due if the car spends most of its time in NI.

Clearly the OP was posting about the cr@ppy attitude from the garda. Not looking to get attacked over possibly scamming VRT.

OKenora

by providing a utility bill, which I don't have in my name as to get utility bills you need to show them a bank statement etc so one company relies on the other.

So let me get this, you have a Northern bank account but it is a non resident account. You also aparrently live without paying for any electricity, phone, rent or rates as you have no bills for any of these ? And you don't pay any tax in the North (if you did you would have paperwork for it addressed to you in the North), so you either work in the South and pay tax there (bet at a Southern address too) or you don't work but funnily have no documents in the North for this either ? Even a simple thing like a national insurance number in the north ? Surely you have a letter abo9uot that, you live here, don't you ?

Have you anything that proves you really live in the North ?

Not hard to find your house anyway, it's the one with no lights on (no electric) no phone and the pile of garbage outside as you don't pay rates which covers the bin collections......surely if you really live in the North you have something proving it ? The only people I know with their Northern bank accounts at Southern addresses ARE PEOPLE THAT LIVE IN THE SOUTH.

Jeez, why not entitle the thread "I've been caught trying to evade VRT, help" You would probably have got a few people saying you were a bad lad but there at least would have been some sympathy/empathy, rather than coming on here with the dodgiest of stories and saying you have loads of problems proving you live in the North blaming banks and utility companies for it. Nothing to do with not actually living here then ?

I also suggest your insurance is dodgy at the best

Vehicle Requirements
▪ Must be registered in the Republic of Ireland or the United Kingdom in your name, spouse or parent's name.

Straight from the Quinn website.....terms and conditions for your insurance. You freely admit this is not the case. Quinn motor policys also explicitly state that you only are covered "driving abroad" which includes NI for 93 days a year, or putting it in English, your Insurance isn't worth the paper it is written on if it's a ROI policy (it may be a NI policy that you happened to pay for in € though, but how did you get one of them at a Southern address ?)

yayamark

kevinmcc wrote:

Yes I have inland revenue statements but they send them to my ROI address:mad: i'm just not sure how I'm supposed to get it changed to a Northern licence as the bank will likely require proof that I live in Derry - by providing a utility bill, which I don't have in my name as to get utility bills you need to show them a bank statement etc so one company relies on the other.

ya i'm a bit suspicous as well. u mean if you dont have a utility bill in northern ireland u cant open an account. in fact very suspicous :cool:

Esel

JHMEG wrote:

If the car belongs to someone in Derry then it doesn't matter a damn what country the driver is from. No VRT is due if the car spends most of its time in NI.

It is illegal for a resident of the state to drive a temporarily imported vehicle. Not talking about the OP here.

It does, however, seem a bit odd that he can'tdoesn't want to prove his residency in the north?

OKenora

to JHMEG:

So it is fine to say I live in the North but have all my documentation in the South and not be able to prove I live in the North, then buy a Northern car, insure it in the South, but leave it registered in the North. Then when someone sees this as odd to blame their attitude ?

This is the oldest scam in the book for trying to avoid VRT, maybe this is not what the OP was intending to do but it is what many have tried to do to avoid VRT. The bottom line is that if he lives in the North he can prove it and will be required to do so by customs, the onus is not on them to prove he lives in the South. The registered keeper of the car on the V5 is not necessarily the owner of the car so we don't actually know who owns the car. The fact that it is insured at a southern address on a southern policy would indicate that the major usage (and owner, cos I know I don't bother insuring other peoples cars) of the car is not in the North and that the OP has no valid Northern address to insure it at, otherwise why didn't he insure it in the North ?

If what he has done is legal or at least above board then why don't we all go up North, buy a car and leave it registered in the North, sure thats legal now isn't it ? Bet you don't think it is.

Stop confusing the "Registered keeper" named on the V5 as being the same as the Owner of the car, it is not and never has been. I don't own my Supra, but I am the registered keeper on the V5. registered keeper is the person who takes responsibility for the vehicle, the owner may be someone different and either way neither has any comeback if the car is impounded on suspicion of avoiding VRT. The only way it becomes simple and easy is if the car genuinely was not avoiding VRT (intentionally or accidentally).

I know the above for sure as I am originally from Dublin and had a Northern car impounded on suspicion of avoiding VRT. The car was released as soon as I proved my Northern residency with all fees waived, and I was driving it on a Northern insurance and licence at the time. It had been seen in use and parked overnight a lot around Navan at the time it was impounded, suspected to be illegaly imported with no VRT paid and me simply using a Northern address of convenience to cover myself. It was actually down there as my father was sick in Navan hospital at the time and I was staying down there while he was in hospital, not that it made any difference to customs at the time
.

kevinmcc

No need to attack me, I don't have utility bills in my name, mortgage etc as I am living with my aunt there. I pay her rent just. As I've already said these docs were all registered to an ROI address as firstly it is lots of hassle to get them changed over and secondly there was nothing illegal about having them addressed to the south. But I have made enquiries and I can get my insurance changed over to my north address with my full EEC licence with Quinn Direct, even if it will be more expensive. So surely now that should satisfy the Garda seeing as he said either insurance and tax had to be in the north or the south but that tax couldn't be in one and insurance in the other.

And for those who think I'm "evading" tax simply not the case. As said I live with my aunt so why would I have her utility bills in my name? The Gardai clearly don't even know the legalities surrounding this.

kevinmcc

OKenora wrote:

So let me get this, you have a Northern bank account but it is a non resident account. You also aparrently live without paying for any electricity, phone, rent or rates as you have no bills for any of these ? And you don't pay any tax in the North (if you did you would have paperwork for it addressed to you in the North), so you either work in the South and pay tax there (bet at a Southern address too) or you don't work but funnily have no documents in the North for this either ? Even a simple thing like a national insurance number in the north ? Surely you have a letter abo9uot that, you live here, don't you ?

Have you anything that proves you really live in the North ?

Not hard to find your house anyway, it's the one with no lights on (no electric) no phone and the pile of garbage outside as you don't pay rates which covers the bin collections......surely if you really live in the North you have something proving it ? The only people I know with their Northern bank accounts at Southern addresses ARE PEOPLE THAT LIVE IN THE SOUTH.

Jeez, why not entitle the thread "I've been caught trying to evade VRT, help" You would probably have got a few people saying you were a bad lad but there at least would have been some sympathy/empathy, rather than coming on here with the dodgiest of stories and saying you have loads of problems proving you live in the North blaming banks and utility companies for it. Nothing to do with not actually living here then ?

I also suggest your insurance is dodgy at the best


Straight from the Quinn website.....terms and conditions for your insurance. You freely admit this is not the case. Quinn motor policys also explicitly state that you only are covered "driving abroad" which includes NI for 93 days a year, or putting it in English, your Insurance isn't worth the paper it is written on if it's a ROI policy (it may be a NI policy that you happened to pay for in € though, but how did you get one of them at a Southern address ?)

Not the case. I do pay tax and National Insurance in the north!! The Inland Revenue sends my statements to the South that doesn't mean I don't pay tax!! And I am not with Quinn Direct, i'm now going to go with them when I move the insurance to the north address.

OKenora

Lets all go find a Northern relative, aunt, uncle, cousin, anything really ......surely you can see why the Garda is suspicious ? He is correct, the Insurance, Tax and registration should all be in the same jurisdiction. 90% (maybe more) of the times they see them not matching up you will find that it is a scam. On the odd occasion someone may end up in this situation accidentaly through their own carlessness.

Either way your Quinn insurance poilcy is worth nothing, maybe it might keep a Garda happy at a checkpoint but it's worth diddly if you have a crash, regardless of what address you insure it at.

Just to clarify here, you live in the North but have absolutely no way to prove it at the moment ? nothing, no letters, from anyone at all ? No National insurance number ? Are you even on the census ? Electoral register ? All those are free and easy to obtain if you live in the North and prove address.

/me stil is sceptical and says a vote for the Dail than Stormont is more likely.

kevinmcc

OKenora wrote:

Lets all go find a Northern relative, aunt, uncle, cousin, anything really ......surely you can see why the Garda is suspicious ? He is correct, the Insurance, Tax and registration should all be in the same jurisdiction. 90% (maybe more) of the times they see them not matching up you will find that it is a scam. On the odd occasion someone may end up in this situation accidentaly through their own carlessness.

Either way your Quinn insurance poilcy is worth nothing, maybe it might keep a Garda happy at a checkpoint but it's worth diddly if you have a crash, regardless of what address you insure it at.

Just to clarify here, you live in the North but have absolutely no way to prove it at the moment ? nothing, no letters, from anyone at all ? No National insurance number ? Are you even on the census ? Electoral register ? All those are free and easy to obtain if you live in the North and prove address.

So it's not legit now to be living with relatives?? I have letters from college, I have a national insurance number for working in the north but as i said i sorted this while I was still living in the south. I'm not on the Electoral Register anywhere, I haven't voted and couldn't be arsed being put on one cause I wouldn't vote anyway

Seth Brundle

kevinmcc wrote:

No need to attack me, I don't have utility bills in my name, mortgage etc as I am living with my aunt there. I pay her rent just. As I've already said these docs were all registered to an ROI address as firstly it is lots of hassle to get them changed over and secondly there was nothing illegal about having them addressed to the south. But I have made enquiries and I can get my insurance changed over to my north address with my full EEC licence with Quinn Direct, even if it will be more expensive. So surely now that should satisfy the Garda seeing as he said either insurance and tax had to be in the north or the south but that tax couldn't be in one and insurance in the other.

And for those who think I'm "evading" tax simply not the case. As said I live with my aunt so why would I have her utility bills in my name? The Gardai clearly don't even know the legalities surrounding this.

Two words - prove it!
You have nothing to prove your resident in NI - on the contrary, everything appears that you live in the RoI!

kevinmcc wrote:

Not the case. I do pay tax and National Insurance in the north!! The Inland Revenue sends my statements to the South that doesn't mean I don't pay tax!! And I am not with Quinn Direct, i'm now going to go with them when I move the insurance to the north address.

Which means that you are a RoI resident - you just work up North. That doesn't make you a resident.
Out of curiosity is your personal mobile phone with an NI provider or one from the RoI?
Read www.revenue.ie/index.htm?/leaflets/vrt3.htm

However, as the vehicle was not yours, I would worry more about your insurance status!

OKenora

So it's not legit now to be living with relatives??

There's a big difference between living in the North as a resident and living in the North on a temporary basis, say as a student, but maintaining your affairs in the South of Ireland, i.e your tax bills addressed to the South, your bank accounts addressed to the South, your driving licence, insurance etc etc in the South.....

"Resident" and "Living there" are NOT the same thing. For the first while I was in the North I lived there for long periods but offficially was still a resident in the Republic as thats where I maintained my affairs, including a Southern registered and insured car, my tax details, electoral registration and my passport. I was only staying in the North at a friends, not resident there. My home was still maintained for me in the South. Somewhat like you are staying at your Aunts. If you lived at your aunts you would have some of the trappings of residency, however if you simply stayed at your aunts then you would have what you currently have. You may have thought you were entitled to drive this car but the fact remains you were not, or if you were seem unable to prove it yet have much to dis-prove it.

You may have ended in this situation with no bad intentions at all, but bottom line is that the way you structured your affairs looks like it is taking advantage to avoid VRT and this is what customs will see too. You are not entitled to drive a Northern car on southern insurance and licence bar as part of a hire agreement. Your insurance does not even cover you anyway the way it is now so hope the Garda does not notice that too.

Bluefoam

You must have your car taxed in this country if it is insured here. Hence all the problems we have with insuring our cars on the open european market. Your tax also helps pay for the building and upkeep of the road system & allows you to use the roads. Your insurance situation sounds precarious to say the least...

The fact that the car is owned by a third party sounds very dodgy & I'm sure it contavines several laws. If your car is registered & taxed in the north, you should also insure it in that durisdiction.

You are lucky the Garda did not impound your car there and then. But he probably just passed your details on to the PSNI so that they could get a full & propper conviction against you...

BTW. If/when you or one of the other owners of the vehicle has a serious accident/gets points/has the car stolen etc... who is responsible for the vehicle - very strange legal situation. They should really take the car from you until you get the ownership/jurasticion info in order.

Our man in Havana

Did QD not question this when the policy was taken out?

Seth Brundle

Bond-007 wrote:

Did QD not question this when the policy was taken out?

When taking out a policy, you are usually asked if you are the owner of the vehicle and also where the vehicle is usually kept and used.
I suspect that a few porkies were told to QD by the OP!

JHMEG

Wow, didn't think the munster final lasted that long...

Ok, here's the story as I see it: OP lives and works in NI (not that this matters a damn). OP is driving a car belonging to an NI resident, and named on the insurance. Occasionally it would seem he wanders over the border in it. This doesn't void the insurance or make the car liable for VRT.

kbannon wrote:

Two words - prove it!

This is boards.ie, not a court of law! OP has to prove nothing on here.

It nearly sounds to me that some poeple are mad that an Irish citizen can drive a car in Ireland and legally not have to pay VRT on it (or something).

OKenora

The Inland Revenue sends my statements to the South

End of, you are a Southern resident working in the North then, they don't send tax statements outside of the UK for residents, after all residents, by definition, are supposed to have an address within the UK which is where they will be taxed.

Southern resident = no entitlement to drive Northern registered car, regardless of Tax, Insurance, Licence or anything else except under a hire contract.

This doesn't void the insurance or make the car liable for VRT.

It voids the insurance based on the fact that it was never valid in the first place or is an Insurance policy that i have never seen issued before i.e a Southern poilcy that gives full cover in the North 24/7 365 days on a Northern car that does not belong to the insurer. The very fact that he seems to be a Southern resident driving a Northern car makes the car liable for VRT. I know it is nit picking but even straying across the border is importing the car and as a Southern resident on a Southern licence he has no entitlement to drive that car in the South at all without paying the VRT. We have to (as will customs) presume he is a Southern resident due to the fact that his affairs seem to be located in the South and there is a lack of any affairs located solely in the North.

JHMEG

OKenora wrote:

Southern resident = no entitlement to drive Northern registered car, regardless of Tax, Insurance, Licence or anything else except under a hire contract.

Rubbish. Of course he can. As stated above (NI owner, named on insurance (which also provides cover in the south, as most do)). Where he himself lives or pays tax is irrelevant: it's not his car.

Guy:Incognito

JHMEG wrote:

OP is driving a car belonging to an NI resident, and named on the insurance. Occasionally it would seem he wanders over the border in it. This doesn't void the insurance or make the car liable for VRT.
.

Its insured by a southern insurance company though.

JHMEG wrote:

Rubbish. Of course he can. As stated above (NI owner, named on insurance (which also provides cover in the south, as most do)). Where he himself lives or pays tax is irrelevant: it's not his car..

Does the law not state that an Irish resident (which the OP is) is not allowed to drive a foreign registered car here full stop?