Stopped over VRT

Seth Brundle

@ JHMEG - true - but he will have something to prove when stopped next time!
As for your first point: legally, he has no proof that he lives in NI but is driving around on a NI registered car that he doesn't own - the named driving is on his fathers southern policy, which more than likely doesn't provide residential cover abroad. The OP is standing right in the middle of a legal minefield and despite the advice here seems to believe that they will be fine!
From a revenue perspective, the OP lives in the RoI, drives a UK car that is registered to a garage. The gardai or revenue will more than likely impound the car next time its stopped and will only release it if the OP or the garage can prove the legality of the OP driving it in the RoI.

JHMEG

Stekelly wrote:

Does the law not state that an Irish resident (which the OP is) is not allowed to drive a foreign registered car here full stop?

Why would the law state that? I used drive my brother's car when he was home (visiting) from London, initially as a named driver on my mother's PMPA insurance.

@kbannon - I seem to have missed the bit about it being his father's insurance. But how and ever, it shouldn't matter. I am covered on my QD policy when I'm driving my mate's UK car in London, or my brother's UK car in Ireland. I specifically asked them about this. I hope the OP specifically asked too, just to ally some people's fears.

OKenora

I used drive my brother's car when he was home

AFAIk thats fine, the car is not yours and un-deniably is only here on a temporary basis and you do not own it. Thats a lot different to the OP's case where everything points to the car only being a token registration at the garage in the north and the cars owner is moe likely to be the person paying the Insurance or a party on the insurance, a Southern resident in this case. Registered keeper and owner are not the same thing (though they usually are)
e.g Car on HP, you are the registered keeper, the HP company are the owners.

All he needs is some proof he really lives in the North, something he has problems with. I think that if the Gardai see him on more occasions in the car then they will impound it until the situation is resolved to the revenues satisfaction. They may not return it to the registered keeper as they may beleive he isn't the real owner, try telling a HP re-posession guy that you are the registered keeper and they can't take it, the car is yours....

Either intentionally or through naivety it looks like a VRT avoidance scam. It may be accidental but I would prefer not to have to argue that point with revenue as they will always get their own way regardless. They will take the view of it looks like a scam then it probably is, ignorance of the correct procedures and laws will not be a defence against them.

JohnCleary

Stekelly wrote:

Its insured by a southern insurance company though.

Quinn Direct also insure car's in NI. I know this for a fact as I saw a policy from them on an NI car the last day. Instead of GEI at the start, it's GNI

JHMEG

OKenora wrote:

All he needs is some proof he really lives in the North,

No he does not. If stopped by the gardaí, he needs to have the owner's details, and his insurance policy details. The gardaí can check them out, and send him on his merry way.

For the gardaí to prove that he is the material owner (and he says he is not), in this situation would be an almost impossible task. If the car was fulltime in the south it would be different.

Guy:Incognito

JohnCleary wrote:

Quinn Direct also insure car's in NI. I know this for a fact as I saw a policy from them on an NI car the last day. Instead of GEI at the start, it's GNI

He said its a southern policy though because it was cheaper.

Our man in Havana

Surely this a matter for Customs and Excise?

OKenora

he needs to have the owner's details, and his insurance policy details.

The owner in this case could be seen by customs to be the insurer not the person named on the V5. There is sufficient doubt as to whether the car is legally on the road due to the complete southern based details on a Northern car, including the insurance. This would be a lot simpler and clear cut had the car been insured in the North and driven on a Northern licence. Everything about the car is Southern except it's regsitration and neither the driver or presumably the insurer have any verifiable ties to the north. thats the problem.

Why don't you all come up north, buy cars, bring them south, drive away, insure them, use southern licences but leave them registered in the North? Probably because we all know thats illegal and you probably won't get away with it.

Maybe the OP only came across the border for 5 minutes and was unlucky seeing a checkpoint with a Garda in a bad mood...........maybe he never enters the North at all and the Garda stopping him knew this (as a lot of local Gardai might). We only have the OP's version of events but I find it hard to beleive that the Garda just suddenly decided to ask about VRT there on the spot with no pointers to suspect anything odd.

Thats speaking as someone who has a very blatant Southern (Dublin) accent who drives a Northern car and has never had any hassles with VRT being mentioned at a Garda checkpoint bar the one previous mentioned incident which was easily rectified on production of documents to verify my residence, which I of course had having lived here 12 years now.

DMC2005

JHMEG wrote:

For the gardaí to prove that he is the material owner

Why would the Guards ever need / want to prove this?

The question of whether the car should be registered in Ireland has nothing to do with in what other states the car may be registered, or who the material owner is. All that matters is if the person who imported it into Ireland is a visitor to the state, and if its importation is temporary. From the revenue website : "All motor vehicles in the State, other than those brought in temporarily by visitors, must be registered with the Revenue Commissioners"

Just because the OP is currently resident in Derry does not automatically make him a visitor to the Republic.

It doesn't matter who is the registered owner of the car in the UK - this is the standard "but I live up north" VRT dodge.

Re The insurace , OP claims : "my insurance is held in the south as I am a named driver on my dads policy so it works out cheaper" - If you are a named driver on your Dads car, I would have expected that you could only drive your Fathers car. "

JHMEG

DMC2005 wrote:

"All motor vehicles in the State, other than those brought in temporarily by visitors, must be registered with the Revenue Commissioners"

Just because the OP is currently resident in Derry does not automatically make him a visitor to the Republic.

The OP says he lives in Derry. If is brought in now and again (for up to 183 days in the year, iirc), then going on the above it has been brought in temporarily, by a visitor. You don't have to have utility bills to be a valid resident in another state.

DMC2005 wrote:

Re The insurace , OP claims : "my insurance is held in the south as I am a named driver on my dads policy so it works out cheaper" - If you are a named driver on your Dads car, I would have expected that you could only drive your Fathers car. "

I'm presuming the OP wouldn't have been so stupid to have not checked this out beforehand.

DMC2005

JHMEG wrote:

The OP says he lives in Derry. If is brought in now and again (for up to 183 days in the year, iirc), then going on the above it has been brought in temporarily, by a visitor. You don't have to have utility bills to be a valid resident in another state.

But this is the very point you are missing. It doesn't matter where he lives, or claims to live. What matters is his declared residency is for tax purposes. He is most definitly resident for tax purposes in the south ( if he was tax resident in the North he would have *lots* of documentation ). Just because he lives in Derry, does not change the fact that he is legally a resident of the Republic.

Given that he is legally resident in the Republic, he would not be classed as a visitor, and therefore he can't get away without registering his car here.

The 183 days you quote has nothing at all to do with how long cars can stay in the state for ... it relates to how many days someone can be present in the state before they become resident here for tax purposes.

Out of curiosity OP, how long have you been living in Derry? If you are living and working in Derry why are you not legally resident in the UK ?

OKenora

DMC2005 wrote:

Out of curiosity OP, how long have you been living in Derry? If you are living and working in Derry why are you not legally resident in the UK ?

And even more to the point, why did you not just simply buy and register the car in the North, like all other Northern residents do ? Trying to save a few quid on insurance ? Save a £100 on insurance and then expect us to beleive that saving a few £1000's on VRT never entered your mind ?

Quick irony here......if it's a new Astra, the cheapest way to buy that is actually to buy it in the South, from a Northern address (no VRT, get a Garage m8 to buy it, no VAT). Pay the VAT in the UK (less than South). Really live at your Northern address, tax and insure the car there and then re-import it to the South when you "move home" after 6 months and pay no VRT at all on it....

kevinmcc

Oh my god people get a life, im not sitting in a courtroom! Did it ever occur to you that where I used to live in the south is just over a half hour drive away, so why would I be bothered sorting out all these bits and pieces.. As I've alreasy tried to explain for me to change my licence I need proof of residence, as I already said I don't have utility bills. For me to change my bank account address I'm nearly sure I need bills etc proving same. For me to go get a contract phone I'll need statements etc hence why i have a pay as you go.. now do yous all get where I'm coming from.. hassle and more hassle so why oh why would I be bothered changing all this stuff? Futhermore someone said why don't I become a UK resident.. well I don't know how to, I'm sure it's not just as simple as calling in somwhere and declaring you want to be a UK citizen. Also as regards Inland Revenue if you must know they do send tax correspondence to my ROI address, when I first applied for my National Insurance number I was then still living in the south but it's that long ago I can't remember much other than they interviewed me for 20 minutes before considering my application and for anyone who doesn't believe that they would send statements to a ROI address, well I have them in my possession!

OKenora I couldn't care less if you think im trying to save thousands on VRT, everyones entitled to their opinion, same way as I say your think your just some ol fuming tax man

wingnut

OKenora wrote:

The law is simple, if you are a Northern resident you should have a Northern licence and then you would have no problem with driving a Northern car. There is a grace period of 12 months after you move north in which you can use your Southern licence but then it has to exchanged over.

If the law is so simple how come you got it so wrong! There is no requirement to change your licence for EEC treaty driving licences. You MAY if you wish change it after being resident 12 months but it is NOT a requirement.

astrofool

I think the first step you have to take is to get your affairs in order. By avoiding this "hassle" you are taking the risk of alot of trouble down the road. Everyone goes through this when getting themselves setup, particularly in another country, and the law enforcers job is to make sure you are legally setup, and if you are not, punish you accordingly.

Of course, if all this 'hassle' is more than the cost of the VRT, maybe you should just pay it

OKenora

why would I be bothered changing all this stuff?

Just one reason, cos it's the law. It also stops policemen and Gardai wondering wtf you are up to. Ignorance of the law or too much hassle to follow it are not really solid defences usually.

edit: lo neil btw...long time no see

DMC2005

OP - You asked on your first post "I right in assuming they can't impound". The answer is a very definite no. They have every right to impound the car, because you are legally resident in the South. Thats why it matters.

OKenora

SOLUTION:

1: Go check if you are registered to vote in NI if not register to vote in NI (you were there when the forms came around and your aunt did add your name to them ?)
2: Get an electoral identity card from local electoral office
3: Get a northern drivers licence, either swap your southern one or get a new one (birth cert pr passport is all you need as identity) though I don't know if holding a NI and Southern licence is actually legal.
4: sort your bank using the electoral identity card and drivers licence as proof of identity
5: drive the northern reg car on the northern licence with northern insurance and nobody will say boo to you.(unless it's parked 24/7 365 days in Donegal).

I right in assuming they can't impound

The Garda could have impounded the car based on the odd insurance setup if he beleived that the insurance may not have been valid. there's a myriad of other reason they could trump up if they wanted to impound it. i don't think the GArda could have impounded it for the VRT uissue though, that would be up to a customs rep.

MojoMaker

It's a VRT scam plain and simple. Pity the garda didn't react quickly enough, we mightn't be having this idiotic debate. Pay the bloody VRT and be done with it, or choose not to ponce about in a new Vauxhall, pretty simple.

Seth Brundle

kevinmcc wrote:

Oh my god people get a life, im not sitting in a courtroom! Did it ever occur to you ...

If you come on a public forum to discuss a topic then don't get offended if you read things that you don't want like!

astrofool

OKenora wrote:

edit: lo neil btw...long time no see

lo ken guess the OP is lucky he wasn't caught cheating online....

OKenora

LOL Neil...the good old days

/me starts TFC now, for second time in 6 months....now that you reminded me

whippet

it OP is studying in Derry and living with his aunt !!! .. it's quite simple now .. he is not resident in the UK for the purpose of VRT regulations.

It is black and white .. and it looks like the motor you got from your daddy while you are studying might get you in to a bit of trouble.

Insurance means nothing as to the VRT liability on a car .. my wife drove a UK reg car on irish insurance and UK tax for nearly 9 months while she was in transition between living in the UK and in Ireland.

Even when you finish studying you will not be entitled to bring the astra back without VRT as your are only at an address in the UK for the purpose of education.

JohnCleary

I can picture this car getting lifted by Custom's TBH, and a thread next week titled 'How do I get my (or not) car back?'

It's a bummer alright, the fact that you are still liable for VRT if you are a student in the North, and not working. Believe me, I tried this (Was renting a place in the North because of education) and I was told promptly in the VRO office that i'd still have to pay the VRT... Was worth a try though

Bluefoam

kevinmcc wrote:

No need to attack me, I don't have utility bills in my name, mortgage etc as I am living with my aunt there. I pay her rent just. As I've already said these docs were all registered to an ROI address as firstly it is lots of hassle to get them changed over and secondly there was nothing illegal about having them addressed to the south. But I have made enquiries and I can get my insurance changed over to my north address with my full EEC license with Quinn Direct, even if it will be more expensive. So surely now that should satisfy the Garda seeing as he said either insurance and tax had to be in the north or the south but that tax couldn't be in one and insurance in the other.

And for those who think I'm "evading" tax simply not the case. As said I live with my aunt so why would I have her utility bills in my name? The Gardai clearly don't even know the legalities surrounding this.

You have just stated that your ROI address is your primary address... Correct me if I am wrong, but it sounds as though you have not moved your affairs to your current address, all except your VRT that is...

Just pay your tax and don't go looking for sympathy. I just hope that you don't cause an accident soon as I'm sure your insurance company will not be keen to pay out under your current circumstances...

seamus

The insurance is an issue.

If you are an RoI resident, then you need to be insured on an RoI vehicle in order for an open drive policy to apply on another vehicle. You can't make up a vehicle reg. and then use the open drive policy to drive another vehicle. Even open drive on your Dad's insurance is dodgy - if you are a named driver, you should only occasionally be driving. Driving full time, *and* in a vehicle not named on the policy could easily be argued in court. You also don't necessarily have to be in possession of documents to be the "owner" of a vehicle. If it can be shown that you paid for a vehicle and use it as your primary mode of transport, then it's your vehicle regardless of what the paperwork says. As an RoI resident, then you are liable for VRT and your insurance policy is invalid on the vehicle.
The issue of driving a foreign vehicle is also legally grey here. A foreign resident may drive their vehicle in the RoI on a temporary basis. As best I understand it, there is no specific provision that allows an RoI resident to borrow the vehicle of a foreign resident. Your insurance may cover it, but as a resident, any vehicle you drive is required to have VRT paid on it before you may use it on a public road. Generally though the Gardai can be lenient on it.

If you are in fact an NI resident, then your RoI insurance is invalid because it's at a different address to your primary residence. You are not required (by Irish law) to change your licence. As a non-resident, you should carry UK I.D. and insurance documents in your vehicle to save hassle.

The first reply to your post said it all - everything said you're an RoI driver, so why would the Garda think otherwise? This isn't a matter of you being too lazy to sort things. You don't have a proper insurance policy, and you own a car that's not legally registered in your name. You're clearly attempting to cut corners or otherwise pull a fast one.
This kind of crap goes on all the time, and the Gardai see a lot of it in the border counties. Either accept that at some point you'll be caught, or get your affairs in order.

cormac_byrne

seamus wrote:

As best I understand it, there is no specific provision that allows an RoI resident to borrow the vehicle of a foreign resident.

That is correct (In fact there is a specific provision preventing any RoI resident from driving the vehicle of a foreign visitor)

Also would I not be correct in presuming that a named driver on a policy can only drive the car(s) the policy specifically refers to.

i.e. The OP is insured to drive his dad's car rather than the car belonging to the NI garage

MrPudding

OKenora wrote:

3: Get a northern drivers licence, either swap your southern one or get a new one (birth cert pr passport is all you need as identity)

Not since 1997. He will now need to provide proof of residency, which he seem to have a problem with. :rolleyes:

The revenue do not care who owns the car. We made a lot of enquiries about this over the last few years. My gf is from France and we were looking at buying a car there and using it in Ireland. During the course of our research we found there wasn't really anyway to do this without running the risk of it being impounded. We also discovered that, although they most likely would not, they could technically impound the gf's father's french car if they were here on holidays and lent it to us.

I am sure they would not but it seems they have a very handy catch all in the VRT legislation, it is quite clear that residents of southern Ireland cannot legally drive a car in Ireland unless VRT has been paid on it or, it is exempt from VRT and has the appropriate paperwork. This means borrowing a visiting relatives car leave it open to being impounded.

MrP

JHMEG

cormac_byrne wrote:

In fact there is a specific provision preventing any RoI resident from driving the vehicle of a foreign visitor

Does not sound correct? Have you any proof? A link perhaps?

cormac_byrne

JHMEG wrote:

Does not sound correct? Have you any proof? A link perhaps?

http://www.revenue.ie/index.htm?/leaflets/vrt2.htm

"The vehicle may not in any circumstances be driven by a State resident"