Why is there little uptake in Computer Science/IT courses?

Naikon

As the thread reads, I am a bit perplexed as to why there is so little uptake in the above courses.
I mean take a look at this article for instance:

http://www.independent.ie/education/latest-news/slump-in-numbers-taking-top-computing-courses-955771.html

Now I understand that you would want some sort of aptitude and interest in these courses to do them, but why the numbers are so low is a bit of a mystery
Does the stereotypical images of "geeks" and "nerds" sprout to mind when people are filling out the CAO forms?, do Irish people in general have some sort of grudge against these courses, no doubt brought on by there parents (in cases I have seen among my friends)and the mass media?
I wont lie, this is great news for me at least, and the minority of people wishing to take these courses.
Chances are, these skills are going to be pretty valuable in the next few years.
What is your stance on Computing in general?, do you think you were put off doing a course due to peer pressure?, or do you simply "hate" computers in general, and dont wont to learn anymore than how to use boards/IRC/Bebo etc?

opinions welcomed/encouraged:)

Nehpets

People hear about huge drop out rates, hard courses, jobs moving to India and everyone knows somone who has heard that someone else knows someone that has a computer science degree and works in Tesco!

I have CS as my first 3 choices and most, if not all, are related to computers/technology in some way.

rjt

I enjoy computing-related things - I'm a competent programmer, not amazing, but I have a few years experience with C(++) and have been programming on and off since I was 9 (back then with good old QBasic). I also spend a fair amount of my free time working with computers - eg I spent most of yesterday putting Linux on my iPod and getting my head around it's APIs so I can write software for it.

Still, computing is way down my CAO list, and it's only there just in case. I can't say exactly why I don't want to do Computer Science next year, but partly it's because although I enjoy it, it's more of a hobby really and I'd hate to make a career out of it. I enjoy working on my own projects, not being told "write a program to do XYZ before next Thursday". I'd hate to be working in such a job.

I'm surprised at those figures though. Most of my friends have computing down somewhere on the CAO, only two or three have it as their first option, but most have it down somewhere (many, like me, have some computing course down as a last resort). But I suppose that as I'm interested in programming myself, it's not surprising that I'd have friends interested in it too.

ethernet

Don't get me started!

I'm hoping to do IT in NUIG. I need an A2 in pass maths. A few years ago, that was much lower. The points are around 330 yet I got over 400 in the mocks so that's half the battle over, or so I hope.

No A2 and I end up doing something I don't really want to do. Going to another university isn't really viable for me.

What's with raising the maths entry requirement if they're so desperate to get people into IT?

As Nehpets has said, the drop-out rate is high. That was the first thing my career guidance counsellor said to me when I mentioned the course.

Why should you need an A to write an algorithm? That's just one example. I don't mean to dumb down the maths required but it's hardly rocket science either.

genericgoon

ethernet wrote:

Don't get me started!

I'm hoping to do IT in NUIG. I need an A2 in pass maths. A few years ago, that was much lower. The points are around 330 yet I got over 400 in the mocks so that's half the battle over, or so I hope.

No A2 and I end up doing something I don't really want to do. Going to another university isn't really viable for me.

What's with raising the maths entry requirement if they're so desperate to get people into IT?

As Nehpets has said, the drop-out rate is high. That was the first thing my career guidance counsellor said to me when I mentioned the course.

Why should you need an A to write an algorithm? That's just one example. I don't mean to dumb down the maths required but it's hardly rocket science either.

Any maths requirement immediately puts people off tbh.

Naikon

genericgoon wrote:

A higher maths requirement immediately puts many out of the running.

TCD Computer Science is the only Computing course in the country that requires a Higher level maths standard.

ZorbaTehZ

rjt wrote:

Still, computing is way down my CAO list, and it's only there just in case. I can't say exactly why I don't want to do Computer Science next year, but partly it's because although I enjoy it, it's more of a hobby really and I'd hate to make a career out of it. I enjoy working on my own projects, not being told "write a program to do XYZ before next Thursday". I'd hate to be working in such a job.

My thoughts exactly. I actually don't have any computer related courses down on my CAO, and that said, 60% of my free time is spent arseing around on them. I would consider it a "hobby" more than anything like you said yourself.

Naikon

ZorbaTehZ, just out of curiosity, have you done much programming in any of the applicable languages?, I am doing a small bit of C, but nothing too serious until College:D.
But back on topic, I can understand how people would see them as more of a hobby than anything else.

Also, Not all jobs in IT involve writing a program that does xyz before a deadline, or adhering to the aformented soul destroying T.P.S reports.
All the supposed jobs that are being moved to India is speculation at best, sure most of these jobs are Tech support level 1 based and include other jobs which aren't very "Tech" oriented, but barely scrape descriptions of the "IT" field.

Fobia

Because IT degrees don't tend to be very respected.

Computer Science degrees are, but at the end of the day chances are you're going to end up working officey jobs (if you're lucky enough to get your own office!) for the rest of your career, and most of us simply hate the idea of that.

Up until about 3 years ago I always wanted to do some sort of computery course in college, I've spent the last 2 Summers working as a computer services assistant, and thus have met alot of people with these sort of degrees. They're very nice people, but their worklives are simply not something I envy!

Naikon

Fobia wrote:

Because IT degrees don't tend to be very respected.

Computer Science degrees are, but at the end of the day chances are you're going to end up working officey jobs (if you're lucky enough to get your own office!) for the rest of your career, and most of us simply hate the idea of that.

Up until about 3 years ago I always wanted to do some sort of computery course in college, I've spent the last 2 Summers working as a computer services assistant, and thus have met alot of people with these sort of degrees. They're very nice people, but their worklives are simply not something I envy!

Yet you will find Arts degrees are very respectable among employers:D(sorry had to be said:p).
A degree will not define you as a person, chances are it will only supplement your experience and Education further.
I honestly think its bull**** that the prospects are bad. These guys apparently dont have great jobs....tough, If people actually tried for better positions and marketed themselves properly, they would probably find very decent paying jobs with some hard work.
I mean take a look through Irishjobs.ie, and you will find decent enough job positions(excluding 1st level tech support).
Where did you get this info that IT degrees arent respected btw?, they will be respected more if the current trend continues...

for instance:

http://www.irishjobs.ie/JobDesc.asp?ID=4166129&MID=1626

Now I know that doesn't take other issues into account, but thats a nice sum to be earning after 3-4 years.
Money shouldent be the primary concern however.

Nehpets

It was asked in another thread but not answered. Does anyone know the research opportunities related to CS in Ireland?

MisterAnarchy

The reason very few people are doing Computer courses is because the job prospects are bleak.
Over the last decade the Government and many colleges spun propaganda that IT jobs were abundant and of high quality.
The truth is that the market is saturated with people having degrees in IT and engineering.
There are very few decent jobs available out there yet the colleges spin the yarn that there are loads of vacancies in IT.
The vast majority of these vacancies are rubbish jobs.

enda1

Of the three people who i know who just finished cs, each of them is starting on over 30000. So i don't buy this whole no jobs nonsense. If you are good, you will be hired.

Nehpets

MisterAnarchy wrote:

The reason very few people are doing Computer courses is because the job prospects are bleak.
Over the last decade the Government and many colleges spun propaganda that IT jobs were abundant and of high quality.
The truth is that the market is saturated with people having degrees in IT and engineering.
There are very few decent jobs available out there yet the colleges spin the yarn that there are loads of vacancies in IT.
The vast majority of these vacancies are rubbish jobs.

Over the last 10 years the IT industry went from amazing to bad (the dotcom boom). It's gradually picking up again. Take a look at any recruitment site and you will see good jobs, and these are only the recruitment agency sites.

It's already been said but a degree is what you make of it.

Corruptedmorals

My brother did it in Maynooth, now he's in Sun programming, loves it, getting very good money. It's not all bad. The same course he did has been changed for this year, everyone who does CS there HAS to take 2 science subjects in 1st year. It makes transferring between it and Science really easy apparently, but c'mon, that has to be putting off loads of people.

As for me, really not interested.

Naikon

WTF?, 2 Science subjects:eek:, I thought a bit of Physics material would be enough for CS considering you dont even need a Science subject for All CS courses.
Biology and Chemistry are hardly much use.
Just out of curiosity, when you say Sun, do you mean the company Sun Microsystems?, I didnt even think they had operations here
Do you know what type of programming he is doing?(sorry for being a nosey bastard:D)
Damn, should have put Maynooth further up the list:/

Corruptedmorals

Well they can choose 2 science subjects out of 4, since they're splitting physics into 2. Yes Sun microsystems. I think they just write stuff, something about operation systems, not Windows/Linux..Citrix, things like that. The best thing about the Maynooth course was that the science thing wasn't announced last year, or even before the February deadline..it was announced in April. Nice.

Naikon

Corruptedmorals wrote:

Well they can choose 2 science subjects out of 4, since they're splitting physics into 2. Yes Sun microsystems. I think they just write stuff, something about operation systems, not Windows/Linux..Citrix, things like that. The best thing about the Maynooth course was that the science thing wasn't announced last year, or even before the February deadline..it was announced in April. Nice.

Cool, thanks for the info:)

Carsinian Thau

Well the media are constantly talking about an upcoming economic crash which would make people believe that the job market is going to be adversely affected. This usually tends to send people rushing to careers that they percieve to have great job security and availability.
IT and computer careers are seen to be very economic dependant and hence, people are becoming too nervous to study them.
Of course, they are plenty of intelligent people who know not to listen to this stuff so there will always be intelligent people moving into that area.

Naikon

Yeah, I see your point.
The Media sprout plenty of crap these days, so I am a little less accepting of everything I hear in the news or read in magazines.
On a dissimilar note, I hate how the Media use the term Hacker as a "bad guy" in every film and tv show you see.
Most hackers are not criminals(more likely to be script kiddies).
"Hackers" practically built the Internet infrastructure we use daily.
I saw the new Die Hard film recently and the inaccuracies in the film and the use of "hacker" was used to appeal to average joe no doubt:mad:.
How can someone honestly work in the media these days.

/end rant.

Fobia

Naikon wrote:

Yeah, I see your point.
The Media sprout plenty of crap these days, so I am a little less accepting of everything I hear in the news or read in magazines.
On a dissimilar note, I hate how the Media use the term Hacker as a "bad guy" in every film and tv show you see.
Most hackers are not criminals(more likely to be script kiddies).
"Hackers" practically built the Internet infrastructure we use daily.
I saw the new Die Hard film recently and the inaccuracies in the film and the use of "hacker" was used to appeal to average joe no doubt:mad:.
How can someone honestly work in the media these days.

/end rant.

While it's great to see that you've discovered what the term hacker means, it's something that's gone through the internet world so much, that I believe the term "Hacker" now implies the old term "Cracker", even within the nerdly communities. But I could be wrong. Regardless, this argument is so very, very old and no-one cares any more. It's just a word, and those who fight so harshly over it tend to be those who've just recently discovered the abuse of the word and thus become outraged for no apparent reason.

Naikon

Fobia wrote:

While it's great to see that you've discovered what the term hacker means, it's something that's gone through the internet world so much, that I believe the term "Hacker" now implies the old term "Cracker", even within the nerdly communities. But I could be wrong. Regardless, this argument is so very, very old and no-one cares any more. It's just a word, and those who fight so harshly over it tend to be those who've just recently discovered the abuse of the word and thus become outraged for no apparent reason.

Ok, regadless of my cheesy comments, I think there is still a very big distinction between the terms "Hacker" and "Cracker".

Nehpets

Die Hard 4.0... what a film!!

Naikon

I dont know If that is a genuine or sarcastic response:D:confused:
I am leaning towards the latter...

JC 2K3

I think CS courses are plagued by bad and inaccurate press about them. I mean it's a myth to say that a CS degree = a boring desk job and it's also a myth that there are no job oppertunities in it. And it's also only an undergraduate degree, it's not going to define your life.

I chose CS because I've always been interested in computers and pick up computer skills very quickly, yet I can never motivate myself to actually learn about everything in an in depth manner. I reckon a CS course will be this motivation I need.

I'm gonna try and learn some Java over the summer, maybe some C++ too....

flynnser19

my brother has a masters in computer science and he's working in paris making 50,000 a year start off and he worked in new zealand for two years making great money there too so its not all bad!!

Nehpets

flynnser19 wrote:

my brother has a masters in computer science and he's working in paris making 50,000 a year start off and he worked in new zealand for two years making great money there too so its not all bad!!

Out of curiousity, does he speak French fluently? Or what?

BoozyBabe

Yes, I HAVE that honours degree & I'm trying my best to get out of this career.
It's boring as sin!!
I'm practically my own boss, have my own office, lots of nice little perks, but after 8 years, it's just not appealing anymore, one day just fades into the next.

Still, I have a degree which makes moving to another career as easy as a 1 year postgrad.
Every cloud & all that.

Limerick Dude

I was sure i was going to do Computer Science, id say i would be good at it, as i have dabbled with computer programming and stuff like that before, but i asked my self honestly would i find it interesting and the answer was no!

8k2q1gfcz9s5d4

ethernet wrote:

Don't get me started!

I'm hoping to do IT in NUIG. I need an A2 in pass maths. A few years ago, that was much lower. The points are around 330 yet I got over 400 in the mocks so that's half the battle over, or so I hope.

No A2 and I end up doing something I don't really want to do. Going to another university isn't really viable for me.

What's with raising the maths entry requirement if they're so desperate to get people into IT?

As Nehpets has said, the drop-out rate is high. That was the first thing my career guidance counsellor said to me when I mentioned the course.

Why should you need an A to write an algorithm? That's just one example. I don't mean to dumb down the maths required but it's hardly rocket science either.

you dont have to go to university, Sligo IT do a great course in computing, for your degree you spicealise in either software development, networking or database administration. Points are increadably low as well.

8k2q1gfcz9s5d4

MisterAnarchy wrote:

The reason very few people are doing Computer courses is because the job prospects are bleak.
The vast majority of these vacancies are rubbish jobs.

http://jobsearch.monster.ie/jobsearch.asp?q=software&re=0&sort=rv&tm=&cy=ie&brd=1&vw=d&sq=not+%2B+%27work+at+home%27&lid=955&category=Category...&searchtype=1

I beg to differ, we have gone full circle. There was a load of jobs in 98-00, then the industary crumbled, it has gradualy recovered over the last few years and it is strong again. And with people afraid to do computing in college as they think it is going to crumble again, there are few graduates because of this, and they are plenty of jobs to go around, assuming you have a honours degree!!

i have an ordinary degree in software development, and am going back for my honours in september. There was a high dropout rate in my class, as there is in most computing courses, for a simple reason!!! a lot of people who do the courses, dont know a thing about computers, and are not willing to learn!!! There is a big difference in typing a word doc, browsing the web and actualy building / programming a computer. Most people dropout in first year because they cant understand programming, which can be tricky at the start.