Fight against VRT...

Mickk

I have had problems in the past with customs/vrt and it resulted in a fine of 6k fine on top of illegal vrt and no car for 6 weeks. Then to add insult to injury a year and four months later (last week) the Guard rings me to say he has a summons for not producing insurance! The insurance was in the window and I was never even asked to produce.

Anyway decided to see if there was anything I could do and found this organisation http://www.irishdrivers.org/
It is chaired by a man with a degree in european law and from talking to one of the main members they really know their stuff.

One of the things I found interesting is the european law of proportionallity:
Basically by european law they cannot legally take anything over your proposed debt. So they cant take you car because they claim you owe them a max of 30% (for cars over a 1.8litre). Same as if you didn't pay stamp duty or rates on a building, could they take the building? If they want the money they can bring you to court.

Also a guard cant legally take keys from you, so if asked for keys refuse, if they arrest you you can sue him for false imprisionment as it is not a listed arrestable offence. There is one case going on at the moment in donegal where they are prosecuting two members of the Gardai.

Anyway I only just found them and had a conversation with one of the members I am not representing them (yet ) so don't take my words as gospel check out their site and contact some of the numbers on it if you want to talk in detail. I just joined (cost a tenner towards newsletters and car stickers ect.) and I'm sure they would love any fellow boardsters support.

PeteK*

Mickk wrote: »

... (last week) the Guard rings me to say he has a summons for not producing insurance! The insurance was in the window and I was never even asked to produce.

I'd imagine they wanted the certificate.

Mickk wrote: »

Anyway decided to see if there was anything I could do and found this organisation http://www.irishdrivers.org/
It is chaired by a man with a degree in european law and from talking to one of the main members they really know their stuff.

One of the things I found interesting is the european law of proportionallity:
Basically by european law they cannot legally take anythibg over your proposed debt. So they cant take you car because they claim you owe them a max of 30% for anything over a 1.8litre. Same as if you didn't pay stamp duty or rates on a building could they take the building? If they want the money they can bring you to court.

I'm trying to understand that lol... I'm slow.

Mickk wrote: »

Also a guard cant legally take keys from you, so if asked for keys refuse, if they arrest you you can sue him for false imprisionment as it is not a listed arrestable offence. There is one case going on at the moment in donegal where they are prosecuting two members of the Gardai.

Lol. I love it! :cool:

Mickk wrote: »

Anyway I only just found them and had a conversation with one of the members I am not representing them (yet ) so don't take my words as gospel check out their site and contact some of the numbers on it if you want to talk in detail. I just joined (cost a tenner towards newsletters and car stickers ect.) and I'm sure they would love any fellow boardsters support.

:cool: :cool: :cool:

Mickk

Cert itself was in the glovebox and he never asked me to produce. Him and the two girls he was showing off to were to busy giggling with excitment and trying to work out how to drive it... She actually had to ask me how to put it in gear! (Didn't have her foot on the brake and its a LHD automatic) I was hoping the value that the VRT put on it might be her downfall as I heard rumours before that Garda insurance only covers them in vehicles up to a certain value.

PeteK*

Mickk wrote:

Cert itself was in the glovebox and he never asked me to produce. Him and the two girls he was showing off to were to busy giggling with excitment and trying to work out how to drive it... She actually had to ask me how to put it in gear! (Didn't have her foot on the brake and its a LHD automatic) I was hoping the value that the VRT put on it might be her downfall as I heard rumours before that Garda insurance only covers them in vehicles up to a certain value.

Why was she driving your car? If she was not, then I'm lost lol.

jhegarty

Chatmaster wrote:

Why was she driving your car? If she was not, then I'm lost lol.

She took his car , because he didn't pay his vrt.....

Mickk

The annoying thing was that I had already been talking/arguing with customs about the vrt and awaiting their reply before, excuse the pun, this guard decided to take the law into his own hands. Basically the vehicle was over 3.5 tonnes so the vrt should have been 50 euro (class c) no matter how many seats it had but they decided to try and change their own rules to suit themselves and wanted vrt at 30% of the value they put on it.

alias no.9

Mickk wrote:

One of the things I found interesting is the european law of proportionallity:
Basically by european law they cannot legally take anything over your proposed debt. So they cant take you car because they claim you owe them a max of 30% (for cars over a 1.8litre). Same as if you didn't pay stamp duty or rates on a building, could they take the building? If they want the money they can bring you to court.

I'm no fan of the VRT system but they took the car because it wasn't compliant with the regulations regarding the registration of vehicles. The fact that there's a fee associated with making it compliant is neither here nor there. You were aware of the regulations before you brought the car into the country and even if you weren't, ignorance is not a defence. Challenging the validity of laws is one thing but ignoring the law and then coming crying foul in retrospect after getting caught is nonsence. You won't get you any sympathy from me on that one and I'm sure there's many more like me here.

Mickk

Article 25 of EU Leglisation states that "Customs duties on imports and exports and charges having the equivelant effect shall be prohibited between member states. - (A registration Tax of STG50 has already been applied on any car that is imported from the UK so this cannot be charged a second time)
Thats the whole idea and principle of the eu, one state with free trade and free movement of goods...

Also in my personal case I was following their illegal laws, a 3.5 tonne vehicle is comes under category c and has a fixed rate of VRT of 50 euro. I don't want your sympathy I am just trying to make people who are passionate about this aware of this organisation which has growing manpower and legal knowhow to back it up. The reason they (try to) take the car and don't take you to court is that they would lose as happened recently in Finland.

maidhc

Mickk wrote:

Article 25 of EU Leglisation states that "Customs duties on imports and exports and charges having the equivelant effect shall be prohibited between member states. - (A registration Tax of STG50 has already been applied on any car that is imported from the UK so this cannot be charged a second time)

I'm not sure how well you understand EU law, but i'm afraid it does seem that VRT is within the confines of Community Law. Perhaps not the spirit, but it certainly doesn't seem to offend art. 25... because it simply isn't a customs duty.

Article 28 would be a better argument but one most likely going to fail, and certainly the EU law of proportionaily is not as you describe it.

If you feel passionate why not try and get a preliminary reference. Its the only way this issue will be resolved once and for all.

PeteK*

jhegarty wrote:

She took his car , because he didn't pay his vrt.....

Oh yeah, when he got the fine and all.

Anan1

Mickk wrote:

One of the things I found interesting is the european law of proportionallity:
Basically by european law they cannot legally take anything over your proposed debt. So they cant take you car because they claim you owe them a max of 30% (for cars over a 1.8litre).

I would imagine that the car can be taken not on the basis that you owe them money but rather on the basis that it is not road-legal. (ie not registered/taxed here).

OKenora

but i'm afraid it does seem that VRT is within the confines of Community Law

If it is then it's only hanging on in there by the skin of it's teeth. It is effectively a tax on importing cars, they get away with it as the same tax would apply to all home produced cars as well, which is fine if we didn't import 100% of our cars.

It's all down to interpretation of the laws wording and it can easily be argued that for a country with 0 car production that VRT is covered under the "charges having the equivalent effect" wording. If we had a thriving car industry however then it would make no difference at all and legality would be beyond argument.

It's a loophole the Irish government exploit, like all loopholes someone will eventually close it.

Funny how in countries with thriving car production we don't see draconian registration taxes, only in little old Ireland where it's "pay the VRT or walk"

Anyway there is little or no point arguing about VRT too much as the european parliament have already said it has to be abolished, they didn't go as far as say illegal but it does have to be phased out. We should be more worried about the tax that will replace it and trying to make sure that it is a fairer tax and not simply VRT under a new name.

EU info here

Henry Ford III

Please tell the full story of your VRT episode and subsequent fine OP.

jhegarty

Mickk wrote:

this guard decided to take the law into his own hands

Quote of the day imo .....

Quatre Mains

Mickk wrote:

Cert itself was in the glovebox and he never asked me to produce. Him and the two girls he was showing off to were to busy giggling with excitment and trying to work out how to drive it... She actually had to ask me how to put it in gear! (Didn't have her foot on the brake and its a LHD automatic) I was hoping the value that the VRT put on it might be her downfall as I heard rumours before that Garda insurance only covers them in vehicles up to a certain value.

I take it you weren't driving a Hiace - sounds expensive, like a Hummer or something else likely to catch the eye of the cops. While on one level I sympathise, you have to concede that you can't expect to get away with driving something like that around. Johnny Law might be willing to let a standard car away with a warning, but when you're into the luxury bracket and its obvious from your wheels you've got plenty of cash , expect no quarter.

whippet

OP .. had you paid the €50 VRT fee for the wagon at the time you were stopped? It sounds like you didn't as they stopped you on forgien plates .. so regardless of the amount of VRT or the class of motor it was illegally on the road.

As for the legality of seizures .. you are talking out of your a$$ and I didn't even bother with that website. So if a drunk driver is caught driving a €300k bentley the guards couldn't drive it back to the station and would have to leave it by the side of the road causing an obstruction !!!

I love listening to people like you who try find their own loop hole, and then when the authorities do their job you cry foul and get all amature legal about it !!

If you are so confident about your case, take it to the European courts, as it is such a cut and shut case in your favour you could risk the expense (banks would loan it to you on the basis of a sure fire winner) and let us all know how you got on!!

Seth Brundle

Mickk wrote:

The annoying thing was that I had already been talking/arguing with customs about the vrt and awaiting their reply before, excuse the pun, this guard decided to take the law into his own hands. Basically the vehicle was over 3.5 tonnes so the vrt should have been 50 euro (class c) no matter how many seats it had but they decided to try and change their own rules to suit themselves and wanted vrt at 30% of the value they put on it.

You had not paid VRT. The process presumably should have been to pay the VRT and then appeal any excess tax.
Effectively, you took the law into your own hands.

Mickk wrote:

Article 25 of EU Leglisation states that "Customs duties on imports and exports and charges having the equivelant effect shall be prohibited between member states. - (A registration Tax of STG50 has already been applied on any car that is imported from the UK so this cannot be charged a second time)
Thats the whole idea and principle of the eu, one state with free trade and free movement of goods...

VRT stands for Vehicle Registration Tax not Vehicle Importation Tax. All vehicles must be registered whenther imported or bought new here. This tax however unfair does not fall into your reference to Article 25.

Mickk wrote:

Also in my personal case I was following their illegal laws

How are they illegal?

Mickk wrote:

a 3.5 tonne vehicle is comes under category c and has a fixed rate of VRT of 50 euro.

If you are correct then why was there discussion with the VRO? Why didn't you just pay the 50 quid to get it legally on the road?

Mickk

maidhc wrote:

it simply isn't a customs duty.

On the 31 of december 1991 it was but all of a sudden on the 1 of Janurary 1992 the exact same system and rate per car with a different name wasn't? Who are they trying to kid, obviously you...

Mickk

Anan1 wrote:

I would imagine that the car can be taken not on the basis that you owe them money but rather on the basis that it is not road-legal. (ie not registered/taxed here).

It was insured and had valid european tax, the fact is that they can take it if you give them the keys, but if you refuse it is not an arrestable offence so they are sort of trapped.

Mickk

whippet wrote:

OP .. had you paid the €50 VRT fee for the wagon at the time you were stopped? It sounds like you didn't as they stopped you on forgien plates .. so regardless of the amount of VRT or the class of motor it was illegally on the road.

As for the legality of seizures .. you are talking out of your a$$ and I didn't even bother with that website. So if a drunk driver is caught driving a €300k bentley the guards couldn't drive it back to the station and would have to leave it by the side of the road causing an obstruction !!!

I love listening to people like you who try find their own loop hole, and then when the authorities do their job you cry foul and get all amature legal about it !!

If you are so confident about your case, take it to the European courts, as it is such a cut and shut case in your favour you could risk the expense (banks would loan it to you on the basis of a sure fire winner) and let us all know how you got on!!

Read my post again, I tried to pay the 50 euro to register it as a cat c but they went back on the laid out categories and said no they were making an exception to their own rules and wanted 30% of the value they put on it to register a class c.

I wont take it to the european courts why should I let them do their own job of upholding the law, next time I will refuse to give keys and let them take me to court for money they reckon I owe them.

Mickk

kbannon wrote:

You had not paid VRT. The process presumably should have been to pay the VRT and then appeal any excess tax.

40K? No thank you, why should I have to.

Effectively, you took the law into your own hands.
VRT stands for Vehicle Registration Tax not Vehicle Importation Tax. All vehicles must be registered whenther imported or bought new here.
This tax however unfair does not fall into your reference to Article 25.

So again, on the 31 of December 1991 it was but on the 1 of Jan 1992 it wasn't? Sounds like "charges having the equivelant effect" from article 25 if you ask me?

How are they illegal?
If you are correct then why was there discussion with the VRO? Why didn't you just pay the 50 quid to get it legally on the road?

Again I did try and they changed their own system, thats how they are illegal.

Gatster

Originally Posted by Mickk
40K? No thank you, why should I have to.

€40k VRT? What exactly is it?

Mickk

whippet wrote:

As for the legality of seizures .. you are talking out of your a$$ and I didn't even bother with that website. So if a drunk driver is caught driving a €300k bentley the guards couldn't drive it back to the station and would have to leave it by the side of the road causing an obstruction !!!

Driving under the influence of alcohol is an arrestable offence, oweing the state money isn't. Also you reckon the guard who couldn't even figure out how to put an automatic in gear if she happened to stop an intoxicated arctic driver she would just hop in and have a go because it was "causing an obstruction"? No she would get someone qualified, I would be very interested to challenge and see if she even has a cat c license...

It cost the same as a bog standard 6 series or most big class c's new. They wanted 30k vrt and 10k fine.

maidhc

Mickk wrote:

It cost the same as a bog standard 6 series or most big class c's new. They wanted 30k vrt and 10k fine.

Then you should have appealed it and not incurred the penalties. Lots of decisions made by the state are unfair.There are procedures you can follow to get them overturned.

whippet

Mickk wrote:

Driving under the influence of alcohol is an arrestable offence, oweing the state money isn't..

now you are clutching at straws. The guards are entitled to seize an illegal motor. Should you refuse to hand over the keys you are obstucting a guard, which then is an arrestable offence.

Could you tell us exactly what motor it is? is it you who has decided that it is a Cat C and when the VRO don't agree with your logic you start throwing the toys out of the pram and start accusing the authorities of being wrong?

I am not sure if the physical weight of the vehical alone will be the determining factor as far as the cat c status. for instance if it was a Hummer with 7 seats and loaded with bling it could well weigh 3.5 tons but is most definetly not a commercial and therefore liable to the full amount of VRT !!

It would clarify a lot if you could just tell us what the motor actually is rather than us having guess !!

Mc-BigE

Mickk wrote:

Basically the vehicle was over 3.5 tonnes so the vrt should have been 50 euro (class c) no matter how many seats it had but they decided to try and change their own rules to suit themselves and wanted vrt at 30% of the value they put on it.

If your 3.5 tonne vehicle has no seats(and belts) behind the Drivers, then its class C. also the side windows should be removed and metal panels inserted.
If it has rear seats and side glass then its class A.

added: the only exception i can think of is a Motor Caravan, or Bus.


If what you're saying is correct about Article 25 of EU Leglisation, then surely every second hand UK car importer, private and dealer ,in the country and just about every solicitor would be fighting this in court for themselves or for their clients.
I think you're idea is a good one, but your going about it the wrong way,

you must be road legal first, then appeal the VRT.

Mickk

maidhc wrote:

Then you should have appealed it and not incurred the penalties. Lots of decisions made by the state are unfair.There are procedures you can follow to get them overturned.

I didn't fancy waiting years to try and get my money back, why should I?

Mick0

A timely discussion in my case! Last week as i was about to get into my English reg car i was confronted by customs and given 7 days to pay €5000 vrt or my car will be lifted and i'll have to pay a fine. So, how do i get around this? And please, no commemts from self righteous morons preaching about right and wrong, lets not get all moral and emotional:cool:

Gatster

Originally Posted by Mickk
I didn't fancy waiting years to try and get my money back, why should I?

You seem to be avoiding telling us what it is - why not post a pic and let people advise whether it is actually Class C? I'm all for fighting VRT, and the link you provided earlier is very interesting (I've been threatened with arrest by a Garda for nonsense before), but you've ignored the question a couple of times

Mickk

whippet wrote:

now you are clutching at straws. The guards are entitled to seize an illegal motor. Should you refuse to hand over the keys you are obstucting a guard, which then is an arrestable offence.

Could you tell us exactly what motor it is? is it you who has decided that it is a Cat C and when the VRO don't agree with your logic you start throwing the toys out of the pram and start accusing the authorities of being wrong?

I am not sure if the physical weight of the vehical alone will be the determining factor as far as the cat c status. for instance if it was a Hummer with 7 seats and loaded with bling it could well weigh 3.5 tons but is most definetly not a commercial and therefore liable to the full amount of VRT !!

It would clarify a lot if you could just tell us what the motor actually is rather than us having guess !!

I don't think it is an illegal motor, the eu is one state and the basic principle is free trade and free movement. Funny you should mention a Hummer cause since this I have bought a Hummer just to spite them. 50 vrt and 200 odd tax a year for a 6 litre petrol

I would prefer not to tell you the motor in question as I will still buy one and be the only one in the country possibly europe with one.

Anyway this has gone way off topic about me personally I am fine with my situation and I think I have come out on par, I wanted to promote the Irish Drivers Organisation itself, which I think is very interesting and I will get involved with. I was really glad to find it exists and has over 1000 members.

Mickk

Mc-BigE wrote:

If your 3.5 tonne vehicle has no seats(and belts) behind the Drivers, then its class C. also the side windows should be removed and metal panels inserted.
If it has rear seats and side glass then its class A.

added: the only exception i can think of is a Motor Caravan, or Bus.


If what you're saying is correct about Article 25 of EU Leglisation, then surely every second hand UK car importer, private and dealer ,in the country and just about every solicitor would be fighting this in court for themselves or for their clients.
I think you're idea is a good one, but your going about it the wrong way,

you must be road legal first, then appeal the VRT.

It didn't have any seats behind the drivers just a roulette wheel and some Chandeliers.
It costs a huge amount of money to do take them to the european high courts and many years. They have been told by the eu its wrong and to abolish it and it will be done within 10 years but thats not soon enough. If enough people join the Irish Drivers Organisation they will have to listen.