Fight against VRT...

Mc-BigE

Mickk wrote:

It didn't have any seats behind the drivers just a roulette wheel and some Chandeliers.

WTF:eek: now that sounds interesting...

Mickk

Mc-BigE wrote:

WTF:eek: now that sounds interesting...

Tone gets lost over the internet... I was j/k

OKenora

Should you refuse to hand over the keys you are obstucting a guard, which then is an arrestable offence.

I would disagree, not handing over the keys is stopping the Garda driving the car away, but nowhere does it say he has to drive it when seizing it. If you do not wish him to drive your car you are perfectly within your rights to refuse to hand over the keys and ask for the car to be lifted or towed, locking it up before you leave it. Any damage it incurs in doing this will be their responsibility, so take pictures.

If he arrests you then he is actually the person in the wrong, you did not stop or obstruct him doing his duty, you simply refused to let him drive your car which is your right.

jhegarty

Mick0 wrote:

A timely discussion in my case! Last week as i was about to get into my English reg car i was confronted by customs and given 7 days to pay €5000 vrt or my car will be lifted and i'll have to pay a fine. So, how do i get around this? And please, no commemts from self righteous morons preaching about right and wrong, lets not get all moral and emotional:cool:

Options:

1) Pay the VRT
2) Prove you are non-resident in the state and her within the time limits allowed
3) Move the car out of the state

whippet

Mick0 wrote:

A timely discussion in my case! Last week as i was about to get into my English reg car i was confronted by customs and given 7 days to pay €5000 vrt or my car will be lifted and i'll have to pay a fine. So, how do i get around this? And please, no commemts from self righteous morons preaching about right and wrong, lets not get all moral and emotional:cool:

you have three options:

a) .... pay €5000 VRT and the fine to make sure you and your car comply with Irish law

b) .. don't pay, have the car impounded and loose all title to the car.

c) ... sell the car

I know what I would choose !!

Mick0

whippet wrote:

you have three options:

a) .... pay €5000 VRT and the fine to make sure you and your car comply with Irish law

b) .. don't pay, have the car impounded and loose all title to the car.

c) ... sell the car

I know what I would choose !!

Oh yee of limited imagination, open yer minds and break free from the shackles of conformity:cool:

Robertr

Mickk wrote:

Also a guard cant legally take keys from you, so if asked for keys refuse, if they arrest you you can sue him for false imprisionment as it is not a listed arrestable offence. There is one case going on at the moment in donegal where they are prosecuting two members of the Gardai.

A guard is entitled to sieze a car that is not legally taxed. The 'keys' thing seems a bit childish as he is not going to let you drive away either. Why don't you just trow them over the wall and pretend you never had the keys!

Regarding the VRT (being someone who has imported a good few cars and the Author of the now imfamous importing guide), I don't doubt the legality of it at the moment. However, one thing that does not make sense to me is why Customs have any right to impound the car. Customs are responsible for the import taxation on goods being imported, not for a Tax that has to be paid to the revenue to so you can drive on Irish roads (which is how it is structured to get around the EU regulations). It seems they want to have their cake and eat it too. If the Irish government is stating that VRT is not an import tax then shurely Customs do not have any juristiction??

Also, if VRT is a Tax for allowing you to drive your car on our roads, then why can't you bring in a car and leave it on your property until you are ready to pay the tax and drive it?

alias no.9

Mick0 wrote:

Oh yee of limited imagination, open yer minds and break free from the shackles of conformity:cool:

Break the car up into spares and sell them on e-bay.

Mc-BigE

alias no.9 wrote:

Break the car up into spares and sell them on e-bay.

you probably have to pay excise duty or vat on those parts too:)

Mick0

alias no.9 wrote:

Break the car up into spares and sell them on e-bay.

I'm talkin bout a revolution and this is what you give me!

If you're not with me you're against me.... and no one will be spared:cool:

Anan1

Mick0 wrote:

I'm talkin bout a revolution and this is what you give me!

If you're not with me you're against me.... and no one will be spared:cool:

Lay off the steroids.;)

Mc-BigE

Mick0 wrote:

I'm talkin bout a revolution and this is what you give me!

If you're not with me you're against me.... and no one will be spared:cool:

Want do you want us to say, its fine, don't mind that bold man with the blue uniform, bury you head in the sand and hope for the best!;)

you got caught. now pay up or do what others suggested in #35 or #36

Anan1

Mc-BigE wrote:

Want do you want us to say, its fine, don't mind that bold man with the blue uniform, bury you head in the sand and hope for the best!;)

Well it worked for Dubya...

Seth Brundle

Mick0 wrote:

Oh yee of limited imagination, open yer minds and break free from the shackles of conformity:cool:

So I take it that you are going with option b:
"b) .. don't pay, have the car impounded and loose all title to the car."

As for the OP, you are being very cryptic in your defence of VRT avoidance. The rules are clearly available; whether you approve of them or not is irrelevant. If you want to change the system then you are going about it in the wrong way entirely as nobody will give you fair due process if you are seen to be breaking the rules.

alias no.9

Mick0 wrote:

I'm talkin bout a revolution and this is what you give me!

If you're not with me you're against me.... and no one will be spared:cool:

Well why didn't you say so? All you asked for was imagination and to break free of the shackles of conformity. I doubt very many people bring cars into this country with the intention of dismantling them for parts so it wins on both counts. What you were really looking for was hope, wasn't it. I'm not sure there is much.

Oh yeah, by the way, who did you vote for in the election? If it was FF, are you aware it was Bertie himself who came up with this tax?

Revolution, get on a ferry to france this weekend and you can celebrate theirs.

PeteK*

Mickk wrote:

It was insured and had valid european tax, the fact is that they can take it if you give them the keys, but if you refuse it is not an arrestable offence so they are sort of trapped.

What about the being arrested for not following a garda's instructions/obeying a garda?

Dwilly

As much as I hate VRT don't forget it's still of proportional value when it comes to resale of your vehicle. So you only lose the depreciated amount of VRT rather than the whole lot.

Unlike stamp duty on property which is payable separately to the government by the purchaser. Bastids.

cancan

Dwilly wrote:

As much as I hate VRT don't forget it's still of proportional value when it comes to resale of your vehicle. So you only lose the depreciated amount of VRT rather than the whole lot.

Unlike stamp duty on property which is payable separately to the government by the purchaser. Bastids.

Depreciation rates are ridiculous because of vrt.

The amount a car drops in a 3 years would buy buy you a fleet of new cars in some places in the world

Quite why anyone buys a new car at these rates is beyond me - bring back non-year reg numbers.

surfmaster

A few things to think about:


Firstly with regard to VRT as a customs duty. This is actually an import duty dressed up as an internal tax.

On December 31st 1991 this was an import duty however the government were instructed to remove it as it conflicted with Article 25 of EU Legislation. On January 1st 1992 VRT was introduced which most certainly fits the category for "charges having the equivelant effect".

Once again FYI - Article 25: Customs duties on imports and exports and charges having the equivelant effect shall be prohibited between memner states.

Also if VRT is not a customs duty then why are customs responsible for collecting these taxes for the department of revenue?

Gardai siezing vehicles: There is a conflict here between the 1992 Finance Act and the "Principle of Proportionality". The Finance act allows an officer acting on behalf of the revenue to sieze a vehicle (not drive it away though!!) However this does conflict with your rights as an EU Citizen under the Principle of Porportionality. Thankfully EU law supersedes Irish Law in this respect. Maybe the government convienently forgot to updated the 1992 finance act or is it another example of the Irish Government deviating from their obligations and depriving our citizens of the benefits of EU membership.

The people of Ireland voted in 1972 to join the EU and one of benefits was "The freedom of movement of persons and goods and to discontinue the customs duties on imports."

Another issue is the calculation of VRT owed - Did you know that if you contacted all the Vehicle Registration Offices in Ireland on the same day with the exact makeup of your car you are guarenteed a different price? Recently I was quoted between €10k and €13.5k in VRT from 3 different VRO's on the same car.

Do not hand over your keys to any garda or customs officer -

Join www.irishdrivers.org - Know your EU rights.

cancan

Despite all that, illegal or legal, if it was abolished

a) the price of your car would drop like a stone

b) the government would have to increase income tax to make up for the loss in revenue, so they will get it out of you anyway. Or welcome to the world of property taxes to make up for it.

It's not going anywhere.

surfmaster

cancan wrote:

Despite all that, illegal or legal, if it was abolished

a) the price of your car would drop like a stone

b) the government would have to increase income tax to make up for the loss in revenue, so they will get it out of you anyway. Or welcome to the world of property taxes to make up for it.

It's not going anywhere.

Not true, The Commission has taken a legislative initiative with the adoption on 5 July 2005 of a proposal for a directive with the aim of improving the functioning of the internal market and promoting sustainability1. Inter alia the proposed directive provides for the abolition in a period of 10 years of the registration tax and conversely for an increase in the annual circulation tax, in order to solve the issue of double taxation.

Also, If the price of cars did drop wouldn't that be an opportunity for newer & safer cars to be on our roads...

MAYPOP

surfmaster wrote:

Also, If the price of cars did drop wouldn't that be an opportunity for newer & safer cars to be on our roads...

...if we could offload our older, less safe cars...whose value has just plummeted.

Anan1

cancan wrote:

b) the government would have to increase income tax to make up for the loss in revenue, so they will get it out of you anyway. Or welcome to the world of property taxes to make up for it.

This is quite true, and is one of the reasons why I would be opposed to the removal of VRT.

surfmaster

MAYPOP wrote:

...if we could offload our older, less safe cars...whose value has just plummeted.

If the government abolished import taxes on Jan 1st 1973 (or the introduction of VRT to replace this tax) as part of their duty to ensure fulfilment of the obligations out of the treaty then this wouldn't be a problem for you.

ninty9er

Firstly OP - The EU most certainly is NOT one state!! Taxes are not harmonised and if they were it'd probably cost you the €40k in income tax anyway over the lifetime of the car!!

2. Did or do you hold residence in the EU country where the car was/is taxed (if not you're pissing on a fire at an oil refinery as regards road legal)

3. Section 151 of the 1992 Finance Act reads as follows:

151.—(1) In this section—


"the former category B motor vehicles" means the motor vehicles which, by virtue of subsection (2), cease to be category B motor vehicles for the purposes of the Order of 1979;


"the Order of 1979" means the Imposition of Duties (No. 236) (Excise Duties on Motor Vehicles, Televisions and Gramophone Records) Order, 1979 ( S.I. No. 57 of 1979 );


"the Order of 1984" means the Imposition of Duties (No. 272) (Excise Duties on Motor Vehicles) Order, 1984 ( S.I. No. 353 of 1984 ).


(2) The Order of 1979 is hereby amended in paragraph 3 a—


( a ) by the substitution of the following for the definition of "category B motor vehicles":


"'category B motor vehicles' means motor vehicles (excluding category A motor vehicles, ambulances, hearses, omnibuses and special purpose vehicles) which are of not more than 3 tonnes unladen weight and which have a roofed area to the rear of the driver's seat, the floor of which is less than 2 metres in length when measured in such manner as may be approved by the Revenue Commissioners:


Provided that motor vehicles—


( a ) on which, but for this proviso, the duty imposed by paragraph 4 (1) of this Order would fall to be charged after the passing of the Finance Act, 1992 ,


( b ) which are of not more than 1.3 tonnes unladen weight, and


( c ) of which the roofed area to the rear of the driver's seat has a load volume of more than 2 cubic metres when measured in such manner as may be approved by the Revenue Commissioners,


shall not be regarded as category B motor vehicles;",


( b ) by the substitution of "other motor vehicles" for "motor vehicles referred to in paragraph 4 (4) of this Order" in the definition of "manufacture", and


( c ) by the substitution of "a motor vehicle other than a category A motor vehicle" for "a category B motor vehicle" in the definition of "motor vehicle".


(3) The duty of excise imposed by paragraph 4 (1) of the Order of 1979 shall be charged, levied and paid, as on and from the 30th day of January, 1992—


( a ) at the rate of an amount equal to 20 per cent. of the chargeable value in so far as it is chargeable on certain category A motor vehicles (being category A motor vehicles which have engines of a cylinder capacity less than or equal to 2012 cubic centimetres) in lieu of the rate specified in section 76 (ii) of the Finance Act, 1986 ,


( b ) at the rate of an amount equal to 12.5 per cent. of the chargeable value in so far as it is chargeable on category B motor vehicles in lieu of the rate specified in paragraph 5 of the Order of 1984, and


( c ) at the rate of an amount equal to nil per cent. of the chargeable value in so far as it is chargeable on motor vehicles other than category A motor vehicles or category B motor vehicles in lieu of the rate specified in respect of the former category B motor vehicles in paragraph 5 of the Order of 1984.

Section 131 (ammended) reads as follows:

( a ) in subsection (1), by the insertion of the following paragraphs after paragraph (d):


"(e) (i) The Commissioners shall, in accordance with such conditions (if any) as they may prescribe, establish a separate register, in this Chapter referred to as 'the zz register', for vehicles which are in the State temporarily and solely for the use of persons established outside the State, and in relation to which such persons apply in writing to the person maintaining the zz register for registration and furnish to him the prescribed particulars.


(ii) There may be entered in the zz register such particulars in relation to a vehicle and its ownership and connected matters as the Commissioners consider appropriate.


(iii) The person maintaining the zz register may amend an entry in or delete an entry from it.


(iv) The zz register may be established and maintained in a form that is not legible if it is capable of being converted into a legible form.


( f ) In this subsection 'persons established outside the State' shall have the meaning assigned to it by regulations made by the Minister for the purposes of section 135.


( g ) The Commissioners may appoint persons resident or carrying on business in the State to maintain the zz register on their behalf.


( h ) There shall be assigned to each vehicle entered in the zz register an identification mark containing the letters zz and a unique number and the mark shall be displayed on the vehicle at all times while it is in the State.


( i ) A vehicle bearing an identification mark assigned to it under paragraph (h) shall be deemed, for the purposes of section 135(a), to be a vehicle temporarily brought into the State and shall be subject to such conditions, restrictions and limitations as may be prescribed by the Minister for the purposes of section 135(a).",


( b ) in subsection (2), by the insertion of the following paragraph after paragraph (b)-


"( c ) Where the prescribed particulars of a registered vehicle are altered after registration of the vehicle, the altered particulars shall be declared to the Commissioners for the purpose of amending the entry in the register relating to the vehicle.",


( c ) in subsection (4), by the insertion after "time being" of "or is a vehicle referred to in section 143 (3) or is exempt from registration under section 135A",


( d ) by the insertion of the following subsection after subsection (5):


"(5A) At the request of the owner of a vehicle, the Commissioners may, subject to such conditions (if any) as they may specify, assign to the vehicle an identification mark chosen by the owner on payment of such fee as may be prescribed.", and


( e ) by the insertion of the following subsection after subsection (8):


"(9) The Commissioners may, at the request of a person who shows to their satisfaction that he has reasonable grounds for making the request and subject to such conditions (if any), and upon payment of such fee, as they may specify, furnish to the person—


( a ) such information from the register, or


( b ) copies of such entries in the register or of such parts of such entries in the register,


as they consider appropriate.".

4. You can be imprisoned , therefore previously arrested, for owing the state money - (see Liam Lawlor RIP)

5. To the lads who asked why it's Customs who seize cars: It's because there is no such thing as "The Department of Revenue". Customs and Excise is a department within the Revenue Commissioners. The Revenue Commissioners are responsible for ensuring every car in the state is registered. For the purposes of annual taxation, once you have received a "plate"(which is essentially what you're paying VRT for, your car is then registered with your local authority through the DELG which has as the name suggests; a responsibility for local government, who tax your car annually. **phew**

see Section 142:

142.—(1) An officer of the Commissioners, duly authorised by the Commissioners in that behalf, may, on production of his authorisation if so requested by a person affected, at all reasonable times, enter premises in which the manufacture, distribution, storage, repair, modification, importation, dealing, delivery or disposal of vehicles is reasonably believed by the officer to be carried on or in which books, accounts or other documents or records relating to such activities are reasonably believed by such officer to be stored or kept and may there—


( a ) require any person to produce all books, accounts or other documents or records relating to such activities and, in the case of such information in a non-legible form (including such information in a computer), to produce it in a legible form or to reproduce it in a permanent legible form,


( b ) make such search and investigation as the officer shall think proper,


( c ) inspect and take copies of or extracts from any such books, accounts or other documents or records there found which are reasonably believed by the officer to relate to such activities as aforesaid, and


( d ) remove and retain the said books, accounts or other documents or records for such period as may be reasonable for their further examination,


and such person shall provide to such officer all facilities and assistance necessary for the exercise by such officer of any power conferred on him by this subsection.


( 2 ) ( a ) Any person in charge of a moving vehicle shall, at the request of an officer of the Commissioners in uniform, stop the vehicle.


( b ) Any person in charge of a vehicle shall, at the request of an officer of the Commissioners, duly authorised by them in that behalf and on production of his authorisation if so requested by any person affected—


(i) allow the vehicle to be examined by the officer,


(ii) furnish, within such time and in such form and manner as may be specified by the officer, all such information in relation to the vehicle as may reasonably be required by the officer and is in the possession or procurement of the person, and


(iii) within such time and in such manner as may be specified by the officer, produce and permit his inspection of and the taking of copies of or extracts from all such books and documents relating to the vehicle as are reasonably required by the officer and are in the possession, custody or procurement of such person.


(3) Whenever an officer of the Commissioners reasonably suspects that—


( a ) a vehicle has not been registered, or


( b ) a vehicle has been converted and a declaration in relation to the conversion has not been made under section 131, or


( c ) any vehicle registration tax in respect of a vehicle has not been paid,


the officer, if duly authorised by the Commissioners in that behalf and on production of his authorisation if so requested by any person affected, may detain the vehicle until such examination, enquiries or investigations as may be deemed necessary by the officer, or by another officer of the Commissioners, have been made for the purpose of determining to the satisfaction of either such officer whether or not the vehicle has been registered, the declaration aforesaid has been made or the vehicle registration tax has been paid, as may be appropriate.


(4) When a determination referred to in subsection (3) has been made in respect of a vehicle, or upon the expiry of a period of one month from the date on which the vehicle was detained under the said subsection, whichever is the earlier, the vehicle shall be seized as liable to forfeiture under the statutes which relate to duties of excise and the management thereof and any instrument relating to the duties of excise made under statute or released.

6. Point 5 touches on this. Because you are now in effect paying VRT to purchase your car a regestration number (albeit based on the same system as excise duty - I'm not here to debate that), rather than paying a tax to bring it into the country...Article 25 does not cover it!!!

7. I think if you check your facts; you will find that ALL cars in the state are legally required to be registered with Revenue when for use of more than 6months (or something along the lines), within 7 days of first entry in the state. However, cars imported from OUTSIDE of the EU are also required to pay import duty whic completely and utterly nullifies any shred of an argument that was left as to the legality of VRT.




BTW I don't agree with VRT in its current embodiment, it just happens to be the law!!!

surfmaster

Really good work on the 1992 Finace Act above - Well done on your research on www.irishstatutebook.ie. How is your research going on EU law or willl you fail to take this intoaccount as well?

I suppose I'm not that surprised that your argument is completly one sided by ignoring the fact that Irish Citizens are also EU Citizens with EU rights.

If the above act is completly infallible - Why then are there 26 charges against the Guardai with the Guarda Ombudsman for false arrest / seizure of vehicles for the last 6 months?

whippet

surfmaster wrote:

If the above act is completly infallible - Why then are there 26 charges against the Guardai with the Guarda Ombudsman for false arrest / seizure of vehicles for the last 6 months?

where have you got this information? could you reference it please? Are you in somewhat linked to the ombudsman or how can you come across such definitive information?

surfmaster

whippet wrote:

where have you got this information? could you reference it please? Are you in somewhat linked to the ombudsman or how can you come across such definitive information?

Information is available from our EC Legislation. It's such a pity that the govenment only choose to implement obligations that suit.

Regarding the cases against the Guardai you should discuss with the people in the irish drivers association as they have helped their members to file these cases.

Marcus.Aurelius

Ah, good man yourself. Destroy the career of a Garda for enforcing the laws of the land. Laws he didn't sign into being. Big men, these Irish Drivers Association.

Seth Brundle

surfmaster wrote:

Regarding the cases against the Guardai you should discuss with the people in the irish drivers association as they have helped their members to file these cases.

Out of curiosity, how have they helped.
Given some of the statements made in this thread that seem to originate from the 'IDA', they are not legally correct.