Bereavement comfort to a non-believer

microgirl

I'm really lost here, and don't know what to do. I'm a believer, in general. I don't have any particularly defined beliefs, I don't know what or if God or god is, I don't know what we are, all I know (and I do feel I "know" it) is that there is Something more than just the world we see, something more than just flesh and blood and pus and vomit and whatever. That's all largely irrelevant (and not something I'm here to discuss right now) but gives some background.

But I need some help from the perspective of those who don't subscribe to any of the above, for whom there is just the here and now, what we do on this planet in this life, and when we're gone we're gone.

What do you say to offer comfort to someone of that belief who's lost someone or someones in horrible circumstances that they're still in great pain and bitterness about 3 years later? Someone for whom "They're in a better place now", "Well at least they're together and happy now", "They're not suffering anymore" etc etc, all the usual words believers take comfort from is a belittlement to what happened, is trying to paint fairies and elves at the bottom of the garden, is trying to take their death away from him. Someone who greets any such sentiments with hostility and aggression and disdain for your stupidity cos he "doesn't believe in Santa Claus either". What do you do, what do you say?

What would help you if you were in that situation? (for specifics - mother died of cancer within 6 months of diagnosis, father drank himself to death, quite literally, within certainly less than a year, and possibly 6 months of mother's death).

I care about this person and I want to help and I want him to come to terms with his loss and accept it and grieve rather than just "getting on with life" but I can't help, I have no basis to work from, because my fundamental core reaction is "They're happier now. Everything bad has been resolved. They know everything and are everything and are at peace".

His is "They're dead. They're over. Black screen. They don't exist" and I can't comprehend that enough to find something in there to ease him.

I don't know what to do :_(

18AD

I don't think belief has much to do with this kind of situation. I think it'd have more to do with how one views the fact that the person is gone. You can take it at face value and accept that yes, they are gone and there's nothing you can do about it but keep living your own life. Then the alternative would be to see this as an awful catastrophe or the complete opposite being an amazing event, which I'm assuming almost never happens. Both of these occurring to lesser degrees.

Take any example from nature in occurrences which aren't hive oriented, where death of close relations will result in mourning without any higher reasoning, but life goes on.

As you say, thinking that they are gone and that's that isn't the end of the story, as I don't see how this could be a source of great distress in it's own right.

I'd presume that a clinging to the past would be a major influence in proceeding time. Like, now they're gone, I wish they were still here.

This is always a tricky situation and honestly I don't think there is a right way of dealing with it.

Sangre

People often deal with very emotional situations without having to rely on any religious crutch e.g. breakups, being fired, severe injury, divorce, abuse etc.. They survive without relying on tired clichés, so can your friend.

Just remind him of all the good things in their old life. Try and show if they lead a fulfilling lives. Show him how they would want him to be happy and to move on. Would his parents want their deaths to effectively end his life? No.

Yes you can bereave, yes you can be sad but you can't let it take over take your life indefinitely.

microgirl

Yeah, but it hasn't ended his life, he's going on, but I really, really don't think he's dealt with or accepted their deaths. Just the hostility and negatively I'm greeted with whenever I bring the topic up has taught me to just never say anything. His parents simply aren't mentioned in anything except *the* most trivial of ways.

And if something does crop up, and he gets sad and upset, there's absolutely nothing I can do or say. Nothing at all.

His belief or otherwise isn't the issue here, it's simply what words of comfort does one offer to someone for whom "They're in a happier place now, watching over you and so proud/sad/worried to see you as you are now" means nothing whatsoever.

And no, discussing how would they feel, say, with the fact that he has let the house get into such a state of disrepair, or how would they feel about anything, really isn't something I would ever safely like to do.

Sangre

Well if he is getting on with his life why do you bring it up? What purpose does it serve to remind him of his parents dying tragically? You never get over that, you just learn to accept it and not let it become overbearing. That doesn't mean you want someone to keep bringing it. Some people don't deal with all their issues by talking about them but rather personal reflection.

You can't really help someone get over a death, they have to do it on their own.

And no, discussing how would they feel, say, with the fact that he has let the house get into such a state of disrepair, or how would they feel about anything, really isn't something I would ever safely like to do.

OR (and this is a wild shot) you could point out any positives that he HAS done or point to anything positive he might like to do. Tell him how they would like him to accomplish these goals.

microgirl

Except discussing it at all is a bad thing. And I would occasionally like to bring it up when things are heading that way already because it's bloody hard to try and have a relationship with someone when they don't open up about anything and you know nothing about them on anything more than a superficial level despite going out with them for 8 months.

Gah, and that's nothing to do with this thread or this forum so ignore it

Fair enough - no words of comfort possible or necessary. I'll try to remember that.

18AD

Then leave the topic until he's ready. If he won't be open about it you can't force him to and hinting at it may seem patronising.
Avoid directly mentioning the event. Ask him is he ok, not in relation to anything. If that's a bad route to take, leave it.
Some people prefer to be alone in these things, and there's nothing wrong with that.
People also have different emotional clocks. This could take years to recover form but don't see it as having to try to recover and more as running a course.

Help indirectly perhaps by seeing if he wants to do something fun, some recreation time.

Try different things and the reactions you get will tell you immediately if it is the right route to take.

robindch

microgirl wrote:

they're still in great pain and bitterness about 3 years later? [...] Just the hostility and negatively I'm greeted with whenever I bring the topic up has taught me to just never say anything. His parents simply aren't mentioned in anything except *the* most trivial of ways.

After three years, I'd really expect things to have calmed down long ago if things were normal. However, if he's still slagging off his parents, then it sounds like there's more than just the deaths of his parents that's bothering him -- and what exactly *that* could be is anybody's guess. I'd also be concerned that he hasn't opened up after eight months.

It's probably something that you could raise over in the Personal Issues forum, unless they've pointed you to here?

Nevyn

Give it a while and then maybe ask him to share his stories and memories of them with you so that thier memory can live on of who they were and what they were like.

There are some traditions which are helpful which are not religious which are helpful like the years mind or sitting shiva.

To gather together friends and family and make time to talk about those that are gone, be it at a dinner or some sort of get together and every one shares at least one story or memory.

Would this be possible ?

Fallen Seraph

After 3 years it doesn't sound, to me, like a matter of needing comfort or grieving; if he's still acting like that after 3 years it sounds like advising him to find a councillor or a therapist; such behaviour sounds like it has some unpleasant underlying causes.

Zombrex

Fallen Seraph wrote:

After 3 years it doesn't sound, to me, like a matter of needing comfort or grieving; if he's still acting like that after 3 years it sounds like advising him to find a councillor or a therapist; such behaviour sounds like it has some unpleasant underlying causes.

Agree 100% OP ... this sounds a bit more than something "they are in a better place" could help

I imagine that if he is still not able to deal with their deaths it is because he has lost a part of support and comfort in his life with the deaths and he is having trouble seeing his life without them their. We often take people like parents for granted, not realising how empty and alone we would feel without them. He probably has a huge amount of unresolved feelings and issues towards them, particularly his father. Where they are now, even if they are in heaven, is irrelevant to this. They aren't with him, that is the bit that is causing the trouble.

I know it is very difficult to suggest this to a person, but counciling is what I would recommend. Nothing platitudes on your part are going to make him deal with this any better.

JC 2K3

A simple, comforting, passing remark with no reference to belief?

"Your parents loved you very much"?

Surely coming up with something like that wouldn't be so hard?

But I feel that there is a much bigger issue besides the OP simply wanting comfort lines, as already suggested.

Asiaprod

Would have to agree that there appears to be an underlying issue here.
Counseling would be a very good direction to take. I think Thaedydal gave you very good advice, as did every one else. As robindch mentioned, raise the topic over in the Personal Issues forum, I am sure many have been in a similar situation.

Splendour

Fallen Seraph wrote:

After 3 years it doesn't sound, to me, like a matter of needing comfort or grieving; if he's still acting like that after 3 years it sounds like advising him to find a councillor or a therapist; such behaviour sounds like it has some unpleasant underlying causes.

Ditto, sounds like could do with some professional help.
Though you say he has no beliefs in the afterlife at all, I wonder given his behaviour if this is 100% true..?

Esmereldina

Thaedydal wrote:

Give it a while and then maybe ask him to share his stories and memories of them with you so that thier memory can live on of who they were and what they were like.

There are some traditions which are helpful which are not religious which are helpful like the years mind or sitting shiva.

To gather together friends and family and make time to talk about those that are gone, be it at a dinner or some sort of get together and every one shares at least one story or memory.

Would this be possible ?

I think this is very good advice. For passing words of comfort, I would point out the fact that they lived good, rewarding lives ie try to focus on what ways they were happy and what they achieved when they were alive.
For me, knowing that some lived well and largely enjoyed their life when they were here would be a comforting thought. Even if he doesn't have all positive memories of them, maybe you could just encourage him to dig up some happier recollections and get him to talk about them.
But as other have pointed out, it sounds like he may require some professional help rather than just comforting words.

Scofflaw

microgirl wrote:

I'm really lost here, and don't know what to do. I'm a believer, in general. I don't have any particularly defined beliefs, I don't know what or if God or god is, I don't know what we are, all I know (and I do feel I "know" it) is that there is Something more than just the world we see, something more than just flesh and blood and pus and vomit and whatever. That's all largely irrelevant (and not something I'm here to discuss right now) but gives some background.

But I need some help from the perspective of those who don't subscribe to any of the above, for whom there is just the here and now, what we do on this planet in this life, and when we're gone we're gone.

What do you say to offer comfort to someone of that belief who's lost someone or someones in horrible circumstances that they're still in great pain and bitterness about 3 years later? Someone for whom "They're in a better place now", "Well at least they're together and happy now", "They're not suffering anymore" etc etc, all the usual words believers take comfort from is a belittlement to what happened, is trying to paint fairies and elves at the bottom of the garden, is trying to take their death away from him. Someone who greets any such sentiments with hostility and aggression and disdain for your stupidity cos he "doesn't believe in Santa Claus either". What do you do, what do you say?

What would help you if you were in that situation? (for specifics - mother died of cancer within 6 months of diagnosis, father drank himself to death, quite literally, within certainly less than a year, and possibly 6 months of mother's death).

I care about this person and I want to help and I want him to come to terms with his loss and accept it and grieve rather than just "getting on with life" but I can't help, I have no basis to work from, because my fundamental core reaction is "They're happier now. Everything bad has been resolved. They know everything and are everything and are at peace".

His is "They're dead. They're over. Black screen. They don't exist" and I can't comprehend that enough to find something in there to ease him.

I don't know what to do :_(

I'm going to offer some extremely brutal-sounding advice. I was in a very similar position about 10 years ago. My wife's sister died aged 30 from a sudden asthma attack (by the time anyone saw her she was on life-support, and she never regained consciousness), and six months later her father died (at Christmas), not having really got over the death of his daughter.

Not surprisingly, my wife went into a very deep grief. She and I are both atheists, so, as people have said, there's nothing you can do in the way of "they're in a better place".

After about two and a half years of mourning, I eventually, rather brutally, had to tell her to snap out of it and cop on, because if she didn't, she was wasting her life, and mine, and she owed it to everyone concerned, including the dead who had loved her, not to spend the rest of her life weeping and moaning. They died, she didn't - she couldn't prevent it, but she could sure as hell not make it her life's story.

Yes, we're still married, and yes, she did snap out of it. The anniversaries are still painful for her, but life goes on.

Your man has had three years. Mourning and grief, like any form of depression, become a habit. It's time to quit the habit and live, or carry it to its logical conclusion and commit suicide.

There is no guarantee that either you can bring yourself to say something like this to him, nor any guarantee that he'll take it from you, but he needs to hear it. What he doesn't need is 'professional help', because that just reinforces the acceptability of what he's doing, which is indulging himself.

cordially,
but brutally,
Scofflaw

solas

it might just be best for you to understand where he is at, so you can manage how you deal with the situation better.
I know you're probably already aware that there are what is commonly referred to as the five stages of grief..

* Denial (this isn't happening to me!)
* Anger (why is this happening to me?)
* Bargaining (I promise I'll be a better person if...)
* Depression (I don't care anymore)
* Acceptance (I'm ready for whatever comes)

and just to be sure, acceptance shouldn't be confused with resignation.

From your posting there are some signs as to where he might be at. How he deals with it is another story altogether.

it's my fathers eight year anniversary tomorrow, (today) and I still have a sense of grieving (which I didn't initially have as my beliefs acted as a support mechanism), although i'm not especially angry about it and can just about manage to aknowlege the day. (which I wasn't into for the last four or so years)

solas

Apologies for the double post, I wanted to add some thoughts.
I think sometimes as part of the grieving process people become emotionally unavailable. In an effort to block out the pain they also block out all the good feelings. Being emotionally available doesn't have to equate to being a believer in anything greater than humanity. Maybe he will remember that and find out how good it feels to be able to feel again. (hope that makes sense)

Finding something else to care about more, whether its a pet or a loved one can help him by getting in touch with his own sense of compassion and help alleviate the thoughts of loss (but I think thats something he will figure out on his own.)