Dublin Bus and Legal Tender

Zynks

One thing that has bothered me for a long time is the arrogance of Dublin Bus to demand exact change or impose their "vouchers" as change and then refuse to accept them as payment.

In the UK for instance, buses demand exact change, but there are change machines at the bus stops. In other countries, it is illegal for legal tender to be refused, no matter if you are paying a €0.10 charge with €100, or paying a €100 bill with bags of €0.02 - sure common sense should prevail, but still...

I am not sure what laws apply in this case, but surely if they have the right to "print" the change, the customer has the right to pay them with their own "money".

Dublin Bus has been holding a serious amount of money from uncollected vouchers. I must leave over €40 every year. I wouldn't be bothered collecting them, counting them and then paying Dublin Bus again to take into O'Connell St. to cash them in. Surely this money could be used to fund a solution such as widespread change machines or a fitting busses with voucher systems that can handle returns.

I asked a driver once what would happen if I entered the bus and gave him the exact amount in vouchers, and he said this hasn't been callenged in such a way as far as he knew. I think this may be an interesting case to try out. Would the driver call the police? Would the police take action? If it went to court, would it stand?

Victor

They clearly indicate the terms under which they will do business, you know what they are, you have no excuse. Try paying Ryanair with cash.

Where on your 10 euro note does it say "legal tender"?

Mick86

Victor wrote:

Where on your 10 euro note does it say "legal tender"?

It doesn't have to. The CENTRAL BANK ACT, 1998 says what is legal tender and it doesn't mention Dublin Bus Vouchers.

Amendment of section 118 of Act of 1989. 16. —The Central Bank Act, 1989 , is hereby amended by the substitution of the following section for section 118:

"118.—(1) It shall be lawful for the Bank to provide and issue in accordance with this Part notes to be known and in this Part referred to as legal tender notes for the following denominations, namely, £1, £5, £10, £20, £50, £100 and any other denomination in the Irish pound or in the euro unit for which the European Central Bank has authorised the issue in accordance with Article 105a of the Treaty and such notes and other notes denominated in the euro unit for which the European Central Bank has authorised the issue in accordance with Article 105a of the said Treaty shall be current in the State and shall be legal tender in the State for the payment of any amount.

Dublin bus is probably breaking the law by issuing vouchers.

Currency Act 1927

Currency in which contracts, etc, are to be made. 10. —Every contract, sale, payment, bill, note, instrument, and security for money, and every transaction, dealing, matter, and thing whatever relating to money or involving the payment or the liability to pay any money which is made, executed, entered into, done, or had on or after the day appointed under this Act for the commencement of the issue of legal tender notes shall be made, executed, entered into, done and had according to coins or notes which are for the time being legal tender under the Coinage Act, 1926 (No. 14 of 1926) or this Act and not otherwise, unless the same be made, executed, entered into, done or had according to the currency of some state or country other than Saorstát Eireann.

latchiko

Slightly OT, but there is a great opportunity there for a charity to place a box for unwanted receipts/donations in each bus. Of course Dublin Bus wouldn't like this but I once heard that this was done successfully in another country.

templetonpeck

latchiko wrote:

Slightly OT, but there is a great opportunity there for a charity to place a box for unwanted receipts/donations in each bus. Of course Dublin Bus wouldn't like this but I once heard that this was done successfully in another country.

I think Dublin Bus do donate some of their 'winnings' to Charity. I always send my receipts to charities anyway.

I agree with the OP. I'd love for someone to challenge the legality of them issuing what are essentially vouchers for change instead of cash. I agree with the point that we know what their terms of business are and I like that the non issuing of cash as change protects the drivers from thieves. But they should really allow the vouchers to be used on their buses as legal tender.

RobertFoster

There was something on the news recently about them installing ticket machines at each stop within the next 2 years. A trial version is already on the Lucan road I think.

Are coins clasified as legal tender?

Mick86

RobertFoster wrote:

Are coins clasified as legal tender?

Yes up to a point. A person is only obliged to accept a maximum of 50 coins.

Legal tender amounts of coins.

10. —(1) No person, other than the Central Bank of Ireland and such persons as may be designated by the Minister by order, shall be obliged to accept more than 50 coins denominated in euro or in cent in any single transaction.

Economic and Monetary Union Act, 1998 .

hullaballoo

templetonpeck wrote:

I agree with the OP. I'd love for someone to challenge the legality of them issuing what are essentially vouchers for change instead of cash. I agree with the point that we know what their terms of business are and I like that the non issuing of cash as change protects the drivers from thieves. But they should really allow the vouchers to be used on their buses as legal tender.

If you look at where cash notes come from you will see that they are a written representation of an agreement to transfer funds, and thus, I can see the courts, if challenged applying the same logic to the vouchers handed out by Dublin bus.

There's also a public policy argument in that it's seemingly not safe to have bus drivers with so much cash.

Mick86

hullaball&#250 wrote:

If you look at where cash notes come from you will see that they are a written representation of an agreement to transfer funds, and thus, I can see the courts, if challenged applying the same logic to the vouchers handed out by Dublin bus.

By that logic Dublinbus has the right to print money. By extension then nobody need give back change.

Amendment of section 5 of Decimal Currency Act, 1969 .

14. —The Decimal Currency Act, 1969 is hereby amended by the substitution of the following section for section 5:

"5.—Every coin provided under section 3 or 4 of this Act shall be issued by the Minister through the Central Bank, subject to approval by the European Central Bank of the volume of issue.".

Again no mention of Dublinbus issuing it's own currency.

cast_iron

Mick86 wrote:

By that logic Dublinbus has the right to print money.

A silly way of looking at it, really. If you go into a shop and ask for a gift voucher, it's hardly a "right to print money". It's a specific agreement between yourself and the shop which allows you to spend said amount in that place ONLY. Try using it as "money" in another shop...

Mick86 wrote:

By extension then nobody need give back change.

Yes, but this is the exception rather than the rule. It's not ideal, but its benefits outweigh the drawbacks.

seamus

Perhaps rumour, but I was under the impression that a provider of services or goods is under no obligation to accept anything except the exact amount payable for their goods or services. That is, they are under no obligation to provide change. If you can't provide the exact amount, they don't have to accept it.
Is this correct?

If it is, I can see how the "conditions of sale" argument could be applied to this situation.

By that logic Dublinbus has the right to print money. By extension then nobody need give back change.

Well, not really. As cast_iron states, it's an agreement between Dublin Bus and you. Basically they mean "Dublin Bus will honour the amount shown on this receipt". You can transfer it to someone else if you like, but they don't have to accept it. If DB were to start printing these en masse, then they would basically be putting their own money out on the street to be reclaimed by people.

jhegarty

Does this mean tesco could decided to issue all change as "tesco money", which can be reclaimed from some office in london ?

cast_iron

jhegarty wrote:

Does this mean tesco could decided to issue all change as "tesco money", which can be reclaimed from some office in london ?

Legally, I'm guessing yes. The downside for Tesco would be that they would lose at least 95% of their customers. A pretty dumb idea really.

Zynks

cast_iron wrote:

Legally, I'm guessing yes. The downside for Tesco would be that they would lose at least 95% of their customers. A pretty dumb idea really.

From that perspective, there is an argument of abuse of a monopolistic position by Dublin Bus. i.e., they would not impose such a measure on customers if there was competition in place.

I think that even if (and that's a big if) they had the right to impose the vouchers, I doubt they could justify not accepting these vouchers at any point where they carry financial transactions with the public, such as in the buses.

Victor

Zynks wrote:

From that perspective, there is an argument of abuse of a monopolistic position by Dublin Bus. i.e., they would not impose such a measure on customers if there was competition in place.

But Dublin Bus is far from having a monopoly.

Hagar

hullaball&#250 wrote:

There's also a public policy argument in that it's seemingly not safe to have bus drivers with so much cash.

Surely they wouldn't steal it?;)

Mick86

cast_iron wrote:

A silly way of looking at it, really.

In effect it's the same thing.

cast_iron wrote:

If you go into a shop and ask for a gift voucher, it's hardly a "right to print money". It's a specific agreement between yourself and the shop which allows you to spend said amount in that place ONLY. Try using it as "money" in another shop...

To begin with, the passenger hasn't necessarily agreed to accept the voucher from Dublin bus. It is foisted on him. You go into Tesco and buy €20 worth of groceries. You pay with a €50 note and Tesco hand you a voucher for €30 which you can only spend in Tesco. Would you be happy? I wouldn't. I'd be less happy when Tesco refused the voucher next time I went into the shop.

Buying a Gift Voucher in a shop is entirely a different matter.

cast_iron wrote:

Yes, but this is the exception rather than the rule. It's not ideal, but its benefits outweigh the drawbacks.

So it's OK when some organisation or person decides that the law can be broken because it suits them. An interesting if anarchic idea.

Our man in Havana

Do DB accept notes in payment of fares? Can you tender a €50 note for a €2 fare?

Victor

Mick86 wrote:

To begin with, the passenger hasn't necessarily agreed to accept the voucher from Dublin bus. It is foisted on him.

Eh, there are notices with "exact fare only" at the entrance to the bus, by boarding the bus one is accepting this.

Would you show up in a shop with a 500 euro note and insist on change?

Hagar wrote:

Surely they wouldn't steal it?;)

Most of that went out with the introduction of One Person Operation. The real risk is junkies and the like.

Our man in Havana

I think that shops can reject €200 and €500 notes. I have seen notices to this effect in Dunnes Stores.

Zynks

Another issue: There is no place where you can withdraw coins or get notes changed into coins. The only way to get them is either get a large amount at the bank or the as change in a shop. A large share of the population would not have either available to them in the morning on their way to work. Says a lot for a "public service". :rolleyes:

GerardKeating

Bond-007 wrote:

Do DB accept notes in payment of fares? Can you tender a €50 note for a €2 fare?

Nope, they do not accept notes in any form, coin only.

Kinetic^

A friend and I got on a bus one day, no change between either of us. I'd a fiver, bus driver nearly kicked us off until I got change from another passenger.

Our man in Havana

Do they not have to accept legal tender? A fiver is legal tender ain't it?

Gran Hermano

Victor wrote:

But Dublin Bus is far from having a monopoly.

Would you not think they have a monopoly on certain routes?

RobertFoster

Probably because a private bus won't travel on those routes because they're not profitable enough.

templetonpeck

hullaball&#250 wrote:

If you look at where cash notes come from you will see that they are a written representation of an agreement to transfer funds, and thus, I can see the courts, if challenged applying the same logic to the vouchers handed out by Dublin bus.

There's also a public policy argument in that it's seemingly not safe to have bus drivers with so much cash.

Yes that's where the idea of paper money comes from, but if I hand over a five euro note to Dublin Bus, they can spend it straight away. They are not issuing legal tender in the sense that I can then take that voucher and use it as cash in any shop/manner. If a shop gives you a credit note, at least you purchase items to it's value in the same place. With Dublin Bus tickets you have to take it upon yourself to go to O'Connell Street to obtain your money. As I say, if you could use the vouchers as coins on a Dublin Bus journey that would be far easier. They could even make it one voucher per transaction.

As regards the safety of the bus drivers, I did make this point!!

templetonpeck

RobertFoster wrote:

Probably because a private bus won't travel on those routes because they're not profitable enough.

That's right. Morton's provide a fantastic service to the suburbs I believe. I tried to get them to look after my area, but they say there's not enough need for one just yet.

They have absolutely got a monopoly over this city and because they know it there is absolutely no respect for the timetables or for customers.

Mick86

Victor wrote:

Eh, there are notices with "exact fare only" at the entrance to the bus, by boarding the bus one is accepting this.

Eh, I don't travel on Dublinbus thank God. And neither should anyone else if this is the way they treat their customers.

No matter what notice they put up, issuing a voucher in lieu of legal tender is illegal. End of story.

Victor wrote:

Would you show up in a shop with a 500 euro note and insist on change?

Yes. Wouldn't you.

Victor wrote:

Most of that went out with the introduction of One Person Operation. The real risk is junkies and the like.

Nevertheless, Dublinbus cannot ignore the law because it suits them. Luas has managed a workable system where the driver handles no money at all and the customer is treated fairly. If Luas can manage it then Dublinbus has no excuse.

templetonpeck

Mick86 wrote:

Eh, I don't travel on Dublinbus thank God. And neither should anyone else if this is the way they treat their customers.

No matter what notice they put up, issuing a voucher in lieu of legal tender is illegal. End of story.

Although I don't have a problem with vouchers being issued in lieu of change per se (driver safety etc). My problem is that they can't be used on your next journey

Yes. Wouldn't you.

I would expect to be shown the door if I offered a 500 note for something and demanded change

Nevertheless, Dublinbus cannot ignore the law because it suits them. Luas has managed a workable system where the driver handles no money at all and the customer is treated fairly. If Luas can manage it then Dublinbus has no excuse.

Though I do despise Dublin Bus, I have to stick up for them in this instance. Luas has a very limited amount of stops in comparison to Dublin Bus. Dublin Bus could not possible put a ticket machine at every bus stop like the Luas has. The only way dublin bus can economically issue tickets (taking into consideration vandalism, theft etc of the machines, the cost of each machine in itself, never mind maintaining it etc) is to do what they are doing and which is invite people to use their service subject to the exact fare being tendered or validating a pre-purchased ticket in the machines located on the bus itself. I do wish they would extend this however to enable us to use the vouchers as part-payment on subsequent journeys. So we need some one to challenge the legality of their current system. Who's up for it??

Zynks

templetonpeck wrote:

...So we need some one to challenge the legality of their current system. Who's up for it??

Man, that red text is heavy on the eye! :rolleyes:

...but I like the idea of a challenge. How do you suggest to do it?

Zynks

One idea would be to get a group of voucher holders together to board a bus and attempt to pay with the vouchers and see if the driver will communciate with head office or call the garda.

Optionals:
- Correspondence with DB to question the practice and eventually inform them about the plan
- Let a journalist know this will be done - in case it escalates it could make interesting news.

templetonpeck

Zynks wrote:

Man, that red text is heavy on the eye! :rolleyes:

...but I like the idea of a challenge. How do you suggest to do it?

Sorry....it's why I'm wearing these now though >>>:cool:

Well first I think we should write a note to the Metro, so that we can recruit as many protesters as possible. Then I think we should track down the Dublin Bus employees so that when they come into our places of employment ie shops etc we should issue them with vouchers instead of change and see how they like it!

parsi

templetonpeck wrote:

That's right. Morton's provide a fantastic service to the suburbs I believe. I tried to get them to look after my area, but they say there's not enough need for one just yet.

Capitalism in action

They have absolutely got a monopoly over this city and because they know it there is absolutely no respect for the timetables or for customers.

They have a monopoly in parts. As you've said Mortons don't wish to compete with them so obviously they'll be the only operator in that part of town. It's like criticising a chipper for having a monopoly but yet no-one else wants to open up against them.

The Aircoach is regularly late passing through Dublin City Centre - how is its lateness different to a Dublin Bus vehicle being late.. ?

parsi

templetonpeck wrote:

Then I think we should track down the Dublin Bus employees so that when they come into our places of employment ie shops etc we should issue them with vouchers instead of change and see how they like it!

Why not track down the Management instead ? Why not track down the scumbags whose thieving caused this in the first place ?

templetonpeck

parsi wrote:

Capitalism in action



They have a monopoly in parts. As you've said Mortons don't wish to compete with them so obviously they'll be the only operator in that part of town. It's like criticising a chipper for having a monopoly but yet no-one else wants to open up against them.

The Aircoach is regularly late passing through Dublin City Centre - how is its lateness different to a Dublin Bus vehicle being late.. ?

Not sure how wanting an added bus service is capitalsim in action? If the State provided bus service won't do anything, why not look elsewhere?

Private Bus companies do not get the same state aid as Dublin Bus so providing services that they can't be sure of a decent return on doesn't make sense. They say they are constantly reviewing the area and if it is financially viable in the future, they will put a service on it.

I never said anything about the lateness of Aircoach

In any event the point of the original post was about Dublin Bus and Legal Tender and my post was made in the futherance of a discussion with other FM's. If you want to get into a discussion on a side issue, perhaps you should visit the Transport and Commuting section of Boards.

templetonpeck

parsi wrote:

Why not track down the Management instead ? Why not track down the scumbags whose thieving caused this in the first place ?

Not too good at detecting a bit of humour are you?? :rolleyes:

Hagar

Would it be acceptable for a privately run bus company to issue "change tickets" in the same manner? Cashable at their head office in, let's say Sherriff St?

Hagar

GerardKeating wrote:

Nope, they do not accept notes in any form, coin only.

Not even if the fare or combination of fares for lets say a mother and children together come to €5 or €10? That would be "exact fare only" wouldn't it?

parsi

Hagar wrote:

Would it be acceptable for a privately run bus company to issue "change tickets" in the same manner? Cashable at their head office in, let's say Sherriff St?

Seeing as the private company don't have to submit to fare control they could peg the fares at whole-euro amounts eg 1euro and save all the fluting around with change.

parsi

templetonpeck wrote:

Not too good at detecting a bit of humour are you?? :rolleyes:

Gee. I must have missed the smiley. /goes off to check - hmm none there... :rolleyes:

seamus

Hagar wrote:

Not even if the fare or combination of fares for lets say a mother and children together come to €5 or €10? That would be "exact fare only" wouldn't it?

Well, there now is an interesting question. While they do have a right to insist on exact payment only, as best I know they are not permitted to choose what method that payment may take. Provided that the person paying provides legal tender, and in fifty coins or less, then it can't be refused.

However, what was said earlier about notes being a bond from the bank to issue money up to a certain value may have an effect. While coins are solid tender, legally notes may be "Official cheques from the central bank of Ireland" or something to that effect, which have a different meaning in law.

That said, the right of refusal still applies. Subject to the Equality Act, the bus service is allowed to refuse service to whomever they want. This may include those who cannot pay with coins.

parsi

templetonpeck wrote:

Not sure how wanting an added bus service is capitalsim in action? If the State provided bus service won't do anything, why not look elsewhere? /

Hence capitalism in action . Simple concept really.

Private Bus companies do not get the same state aid as Dublin Bus so providing services that they can't be sure of a decent return on doesn't make sense. They say they are constantly reviewing the area and if it is financially viable in the future, they will put a service on it.

Yep capitalism in action. DB have to put buses on God-forsaken routes no matter what which is public-benefit in action (though to a small no).

I never said anything about the lateness of Aircoach

No need to be confused. You suggested that because DB had a monopoly they didn't adhere to timetables. The Aircoach example was to show that seeing as Aircoach isn't a monopoly but still is late then there must be other extraneous factors which cause buses to be late - I expect it has something to do with general poor traffic conditions.

In any event the point of the original post was about Dublin Bus and Legal Tender and my post was made in the futherance of a discussion with other FM's. If you want to get into a discussion on a side issue, perhaps you should visit the Transport and Commuting section of Boards.

I was responding to your categorisation that this issue is as a result of DB having a monopoly. Hence the pertinence of the fact that other companies didn't wish to get involved on routes which they perceived as having a marginal (at best) contribution to their profits.

Perhaps this thread is more suited to the Commuting Forum as we could see what other operators do.

templetonpeck

parsi wrote:

Gee. I must have missed the smiley. /goes off to check - hmm none there... :rolleyes:

Did you not read the context in which it was written?

Personally I don't see the point in trolling, but I guess some people get a kick out of it. :mad:

templetonpeck

parsi wrote:

templetonpeck wrote:

Not sure how wanting an added bus service is capitalsim in action? If the State provided bus service won't do anything, why not look elsewhere? /

Hence capitalism in action . Simple concept really.

It's not capitalism it's called competition

parsi

templetonpeck wrote:

parsi wrote:

templetonpeck wrote:

Not sure how wanting an added bus service is capitalsim in action? If the State provided bus service won't do anything, why not look elsewhere? /

Hence capitalism in action . Simple concept really.

It's not capitalism it's called competition

Please try to not drag this off topic....

Competition is a form of capitalism in action.

Your quoting is a bit skewed btw...

cast_iron

seamus wrote:

Well, there now is an interesting question. While they do have a right to insist on exact payment only, as best I know they are not permitted to choose what method that payment may take. Provided that the person paying provides legal tender, and in fifty coins or less, then it can't be refused.

seamus wrote:

That said, the right of refusal still applies. Subject to the Equality Act, the bus service is allowed to refuse service to whomever they want. This may include those who cannot pay with coins.

Is this not a contradiction? Which are you saying?

I also find it strange that they can refuse who they like - without reason whatsoever required. I wouldn't be too impressed if a driver decided to say "Sorry mate, not today - just 'cos I said" and legally get away with it.

Zynks

cast_iron wrote:

I also find it strange that they can refuse who they like - without reason whatsoever required. I wouldn't be too impressed if a driver decided to say "Sorry mate, not today - just 'cos I said" and legally get away with it.

If it is correct that they have the right to arbitrarily refuse a passenger, they shouldn't be classified as a public service. After all, they are subsidised by our tax money under the pretext of providing an essential service.

But leaving that aside for the moment, my interest is to find out if the current voucher system is legal, if it is likely to stand in court and what would be the best way to challenge it. There are diverging views so far, and it would be interesting to get some more inputs.

I am willing to expose myself to being taken to court for paying with vouchers if that is what it takes, but I wonder if that would just be a waste of time...

Our man in Havana

I don't think it is a waste of time.

I am not sure what they would prosecute you for maybe fare evasion or more than likely a public order offence when you refuse to leave the bus after they refuse the vouchers.

johnnyskeleton

If you have a 100 grand to spare you might consider a judicial review of Dublin Bus' decision not to give change but to issue vouchers for change.

Think about it like this: you must purchase a ticket before using a bus. these tickets are available from shops across dublin. alternatively, IF you have the exact change, then you CAN pay when you get on the bus. these are the terms of business upon which dublin bus choose to operate, and no one is forced to pay when they get on, they can always buy a ticket.

Alternatively: you go into a casino and win 50 quid. they give you your winnings in chips and you have to go all the way to the cashier's desk to redeem them into real money. dublin bus does that, but only on a larger and more inconvenient scale.

Our man in Havana

Alternatively: you go into a casino and win 50 quid. they give you your winnings in chips and you have to go all the way to the cashier's desk to redeem them into real money. dublin bus does that, but only on a larger and more inconvenient scale.

Not quite. You can still use the chips in the casino as money. You can't use DB vouchers on another bus as money. There is a difference.

I don't think you need to spend 100k on this. Simply appeal a District Court decision to the High Court. You can get legal aid for that AFAIK.