Bad Bev's sins are relative and supported

FTA69

I hope that I'm wrong about SF/IRA and that my closest friend is right; he believes that they will soldier on (no pun intended) for a few more years before being absorbed by FF.

They won't be absorbed, but they are seeking to become Fianna Fáil's adjutant in a coalition government in the hope of pan-nationalism and minor cosmetic changes in the social system. Of course most Sinn Féin activists on the ground are hoping for the Socialist Republic, but you can be sure that that's not on Gerry Adams' agenda.

I just don't buy this.

Fair enough, but I've half a decade's experience in SF, you haven't. I'm not trying to come across as patronising, but in that time I've formulated a relatively informed opinion on the subject and I can safely say that you'll be seeing a lot more Mary Lou types and a lot less Dessie Ellises in future. In another 2 or 3 years SF will be indistinguishable from any other parties. You may well have issues with their past, fair enough. But they most certainly aren't a threat (by your logic) now and they definitely won't be in the future.

I do believe that Michael Collins was a murdering thug.

Of course he was, he took part in the illegal and unmandated 1916 Rising. He then commanded an unlawful organisation which was having people whacked left, right and centre. A .45 round in the head of an RIC detective lying in bed splashed as much blood on the woman next to him as it did to the RUC man in 1992. The only question you have to ask yourself is why do people laud him and deride the likes of Ferris? And what was really the political alternative on offer during their lives? Whether you like it or not it often came down to either accepting Brit rule, or else resisting it, and that resistance inevitably led to violence, as is often the case when confronting an imperial power.

She very likely believes that she facilitated customers in doing right, i.e. avoiding tax. This is a political perspective.

Martin Ferris believed armed struggle against a British occupation was right, and that of course is also a political perspective; a political perspective that has been part of Irish life for centuries. Of course you will say that is also a moral (or lack of) perspective. But then many also believe that Flynn aiding tax evasion (I wouldn't call it "avoidance") was morally repugnant when that w*nker Haughey was telling us all "tighten our belts". The fact remains it all come down to opinion. My point was that Ferris has integrity, at least for the fact he was honest and proud of the actions which he believes were part of a liberation struggle, not shifty backroom tax evasion for the rich.

Jackie laughlin

I'm concerned about getting way off the thread. I'll confine myself to two brief points.

It is inconsistent to laud Collins and condemn Ferris.

Do you really believe that morality is just a matter of opinion, that there is no right and wrong - just different opinions? In this view all crime disappears. Moreover, your condemnation (which I share) of Bev and Haughey has no value.

lucernarian

As a Louth man, it embarasses me that the convicted criminal that Arthur Morgan is, got elected fairly handily.

Bev's sins are indeed relative. Her worst quality IMO is the self-righteousness she has, most likely got off her father P Flynn.

FTA69

Do you really believe that morality is just a matter of opinion, that there is no right and wrong - just different opinions?

Not on some absolute issues, but you can't apply a blanket moral criticism to something as complex as the IRA campaign, or any other deep political case for that matter.

TBC,

As a Louth man, it embarasses me that the convicted criminal that Arthur Morgan is, got elected fairly handily

Unlucky for you that Louth is a Republican county on the border then.

Jackie laughlin

While the offences are nothing like as serious, the moral complexity surrounding Bev is at least as great.

gbh

One person was trying to help defend catholics against state sponsored agression...the other was trying to hide money owed to the exchequer which could have been used to provide hospital beds for people on trollies in hospital corridors...make your own mind up who was the more patriotic and trying to help their fellow countrymen and women...its easy to say that this was right or that was wrong about the past. But unless you were at the center of those politics then you can't be so morally upright about it. Like i say politics has nothing to do with morality.

K-9

is_that_so wrote:

I think it is a mixture of things

1. Love of the Irish stroke.

We all do it in large or smaller ways and tend to have a sneaking admiration for people who get away with it.

2. Ethics

This is a word in the dictionary that is subsumed by the above. We tend to be loose on definitions of hard things like ethics. There are really degrees of wrong and ethics only applies to the really bad ones.

3. Whimsy

Ah sure what did I do? It did no harm.


4. The Dublin "mejia"

Much as Lowry was lauded locally in the aftermath of his disgrace and promptly voted back in, Bev is much the same. The Dublin mejia/Dublin 4 is implicated in both.

5. The Yarn

We love someone with a bit of bare-faced cheek who can tell a good story, even if they might be lying.

CJ Haughey, P Flynn , Burke etc.

6. Local politics

All politics is local.

7. We just don't care enough.

You've it the nail on the head. Who on this thread has not paid a childminder cash in hand, not paid a plumber/builder etc. cash to save the VAT element of the price thus saving our pockets but depriving the taxman, who has not done a wee bit of work in the evening and pocketed it?

It's on a smaller scale but is it right? I'm sure some have done everything above board but I'd say they are by far the minority.

Jackie laughlin

The question is would someone say, "I'm standing as a candidate for election and asking you to support me as someone who has operated in and approves of the black economy."? Now, if that person were elected, a quota of people could be said to have supported the black-economy candidate.

Ferris helped fill hospital beds. Bev helped people avoid paying their share towards hospital beds.

Incidentally, I'm quite tired of the bogus elitism which claims that because someone was not resident in Ulster in the last few decades, they are barred from comment. For the record, I have no involvement in off-shore tax schemes but I have a view on them. I have close (catholic, nationalist) friends who were subjected to an IRA gun attack in Belfast and completely unconnected I have received threats from SF/IRA for my views and I have a view on SF/IRA. There is a thread running here on chavez and I doubt if the contributors were near S. America.

FTA69

Incidentally, I'm quite tired of the bogus elitism which claims that because someone was not resident in Ulster in the last few decades, they are barred from comment.

True, I'm from Cork and I'm a Republican. We are allowed have opinions on whatever we want, especially those that occur in what is our shared country after all.

completely unconnected I have received threats from SF/IRA for my views

Like what? And if we want to talk about death threats I could stay on here all day, whether it be about threats from criminals or threats from the police. I'd be interested in hearing the nature of these "threats". (Which normally isn't the IRA's style I have to say)

Jackie laughlin

FTA,
I'm reluctant to identify myself as no one else does so here. Moreover, I remain afraid of SF/IRA. Their most serious threats against me were during one of the hunger strikes when my vote prevented an organisation publicly supporting the hunger strikers. My contributions to public meetings (e.g. residents assocs.) have frequently provoked threats. I was also threatened at an anti-war meeting. I am genuinely frightened by these people and wish that others would speak out against them but they don't. They approach me afterwards, tell me that they agree with me, and that they admire my courage. Bastard! I'm scared and I could do with public support.

The SF "style" is very much about using the IRA threat when required. It works!

FTA69

My contributions to public meetings (e.g. residents assocs.) have frequently provoked threats.

So you say, but as I said its neither SF's nor the IRA's style to threaten people at tenant meetings, how the subject of the IRA even came up in such a meeting is an interest in itself, most of the ones I've been to revolved around who's cutting the grass at the weekend. Your ones have obviously been more interesting! What I do find interesting though is that for all the threats and inferences of trouble to come, you're still in one piece.

I am genuinely frightened by these people and wish that others would speak out against them but they don't

But yet many people in deprived working areas used to vote for SF in large numbers and more often than not respected Republican activists for their community work.

The SF "style" is very much about using the IRA threat when required.

The only examples I've ever come across like that were when SF members were threatened by criminals/drug-dealers, in which case the IRA often made it clear that that behaviour wouldn't be tolerated. I've never even heard of a case in my area, or within the movement where people were threatened for giving out about Republicans.

Jackie laughlin

The subject would come up because I would bring it up. SF/IRA don't do community work; they attempt to set up parallell structures so that people will operate through them. They dispense rough justice to vandals, joy-riders etc and this is often appreciated by neighbours. I accept that their grip has been slipping the more they have to appear respectable.

The suggestion that threat is not their style is just plain bizarre.

I remain in good health because after these incidents, I take care and I'm an annoyance to them rather than a problem.