Children Home Alone without a Creche

How Strange

Ayla Quote: I was left home alone w/ my brother and sister (both older) when I was about 8 and my brother 14. Again, we had a list of chores to complete and we'd do them, stay out of trouble and not get hurt. When they were done we'd go outside, read a book and generally entertain ourselves without causing any sort of annoyance to anyone else.

Ayla, this might have been true in your family but for every one of these examples there are probably 50 or more cases of young kids wandering around housing estates causing trouble because they are bored and have no parental supervision. This is the same as someone saying 'my granny smoked 50 cigarettes a day and lived to a 100' but for that one granny there are 100 people dying of smoking related illnesses.

Times have changed indeed. Parents may have given children more responsibility years ago but was that a good thing? My parents would never have left us on our own when we were children. Ever.

In the context of the OP, he was making a conscious decision to leave his three children unattended for the summer holidays. He had no qualms about it, he saw no danger it in and basically could not be bothered his ar*e making a suitable arrangement to have them looked after.

IMO, children need parental supervision and they need to know that they cannot just run wild day in day out. The OP and his wife, as parents, have a legal responsibility to make sure their children are looked after in a supervised environment. He just didn't get that at all. His attitude was 'ah sure, we'll leave a bit of food out for them, switch on the tv, tell the 13yr old not to watch anything with an adult content and they'll be grand'.

Ayla

How Strange wrote:

Times have changed indeed. Parents may have given children more responsibility years ago but was that a good thing?

How Strange - My question is, was it a bad thing?

IMO, kids are left w/o any responsibility these days, and they are therefore left bored and they then get into trouble. Why do people these days feel that they don't need to give their kids any responsibility in the form of chores etc?

There are many parents who do stay home w/ their kids, but the kids are still out causing meyham in the housing estates or sitting in front of the tv all day.

How Strange

Ayla Quote:How Strange - My question is, was it a bad thing?

IMO, kids are left w/o any responsibility these days, and they are therefore left bored and they then get into trouble. Why do people these days feel that they don't need to give their kids any responsibility in the form of chores etc?

Ayla, I don't really know if it is a good or bad thing. There are lots of things about our childhoods which we are nostalgic for but which are now completely different - no baby seats, piling as many people into a car as possible to head off to the beach (boot included). Somethings I believe have changed for the better.

When I was younger, I knew lots of kids that worked like little slaves around the house, minding their brothers and sisters, washing, ironing, cleaning. I knew others that weren't expected to lift a finger. IMO, it is always good for the kids to get them involved in the running of the house as long as they are still allowed to be children BUT I don't think that is the issue on this particular thread.

The OP wasn't expecting the 13yr old to clean the house, cook dinner etc. The 13yr old was expected to look after a 5yr old and 11yr old day in day out throughout the summer. Honestly, looking back at your childhood, would you have liked to spend your entire summer holiday doing that? Sitting in the house watching tv?

I notice the OP hasn't posted anything else for months but I hope he has read through this thread once in a while to see that it is so controversial that people are still talking about it.

Ayla

How Strange wrote:

I notice the OP hasn't posted anything else for months but I hope he has read through this thread once in a while to see that it is so controversial that people are still talking about it.

Agreed, I noticed that too...:rolleyes:

I was left home alone w/ my brother and sister (both older) when I was about 8 and my brother 14. Again, we had a list of chores to complete and we'd do them, stay out of trouble and not get hurt. When they were done we'd go outside, read a book and generally entertain ourselves without causing any sort of annoyance to anyone else.

So my question is, how have "times changed" so much that kids can't be expected to do this anymore? If it's the "fear" of technology (ie: kids will watch bad tv, surf the net to inappropriate sites, etc) then I can think of a very simple solution to that problem...

Kids will rise (or fall) to meet the expectations given to them.

I totally agree. I think teenagers these days are often way too coddled (and I'm 22, not an old granny). If I couldn't leave kids over 12 alone for a few hours without them causing mayhem then I'd ask myself what kind of spoiled brats I was raising. I do agree that a 5 year old is too young to leave with a 13 year old boy but some of the suggestions on here are laughable. Secondary school children letting themselves into the house and entertaining themselves for an hour or two until the parents are home from work does not constitute neglect. It seems much much worse for me when they are given no responsibility at all - my mum's friends kids are 16 and 18 and too afraid to catch the school bus home because they've never done it before - Mummy left work to go and get them and bring them home every day and now they can't deal with anything, which I think is pathetic. The older one is going off to college now and hasn't a clue how to manage on her own - so how was that good parenting? Are you not supposed to bring up children to be independent? How can you do that when you never give them any freedom or responsibility? Gradually being left alone and being responsible for more chores seems more sensible than suddenly leaving for college at 18 and not having a clue.

Honestly, looking back at your childhood, would you have liked to spend your entire summer holiday doing that? Sitting in the house watching tv?

Well that's hardly the most awful thing you could ever imagine :rolleyes: I guess I live in the middle of nowhere with no camps or clubs so most kids either sat at home/played in the garden or worked on the farm which I considered even worse. Very few people have the luxury of having their parents at home to chauffeur them around all day to fun activities. Maybe I think differently because I was brought up in the country. And the working parents thing has nothing to do with the Irish economy - it's the way it is for most families in most developed countries now.

As I said, I think 5 is way too young to leave at home all day but secondary school age kids are totally different. I always thought the legal/acceptable age for babysitters was 14+? (This is what I always heard growing up and seems to be the case, having checked out a few websites) So a 14 year old can mind other kids and babies but god forbid you leave a 12 year old alone? :rolleyes:

Ayla

Miguel Deafening Deodorant - I agree with your comments. I too grew up in the country and didn't have my folks home to drive me around to every fun activity under the sun. Funny, I have a lot of childhood memories of making my own activities...my siblings & I would climb trees, make forts out of bed linen, read books, take walks, play games...the list goes on.

We weren't allowed tv, and it's something we barely contested. Now, as I parent I fully understand why. I think it's dreadful that kids now have no responsibility and no ability to entertain themselves. Tv is *way* overused, and shouldn't be relied on to babysit any child, regardless of their age.

OP - what did you and your Mrs decide to do afterall?

BostonB

I think theres a difference leaving a 13yr old on their own for a few hours, occasionally and leaving them to look after a 5yr old all day for weeks. Theres also a big difference in that and an 18yr being scared to get a bus.

cailinoBAC

I don't have children and maybe when/if I have children I will change my mind, but I don't see why people are demonising this as much as they are. Maybe it's too long for a whole summer, but I think parents can surely tell if their 13 year olds are mature enough or not. Yes, something could happen, but something could always happen. In years past nobody had mobile phones and if something happened maybe it wasn't even as easy to contact parents. Anyway, yeah, I was one of the 13 year olds left to look after her brothers and sisters (5,7,9,11). My 16 year old brother was off working somewhere. My mother was a teacher and when I was finished 1st year I had the month of June off and she was still working. She cancelled the babysitter/cleaner (I'm assuming these multitaskers don't exist any more) and I was in charge of the 4 younger ones and also tidying the house and cooking the dinner.
Did I resent this? Well, it was one month out of 3. I wanted to go to the Gaeltacht and I knew money was tight. As for the babysitting aspect, I would have been insulted if told we needed to keep the babysitter when I was at home. Maybe I resented a little some years on when some of the younger ones were able to go to the Gaeltacht without having to work for it but I suppose that's what comes of being one of the older ones when you're always reminded of the ones coming behind you.
Anyway, I know times have changed and I don't really have a right to comment because I don't have children myself, maybe in the past (and this is little over 10 years ago) we gave kids too much responsibility but I think many children are overprotected today.

dreamingoak

It sounds like you are already doing this and it is illegal. This is parental neglect. Sure in times goneby kids did alsorts of things, but now we have moved on. they are not allowed to be put out to work any more, and not allowed to left to fend for themselves anymore. A woman recently left her chil unattended in the car at tesco in greystones. the child was 13. the legal age is 14, i believe. the police were called, she diddnt get out of there for 3 hours, and she was investigated by the social welfare. When I was younger the legal age to be left unsupervised by an adult was 13. I know this because I was starting to go babysitting and had to find out.
So my opinion, and i,m sure that of many others who may for some reason be afraid to say it, is that this is illegal, dangerous, irresponsible, and dreadful parenting, if not not parenting at all. The children are at risk. You should and I hope will be reported. get a childminder before something goes awfully wrong.

LadyE

My sister and I were left home to mind our younger brothers from a young age (12).

It was awful, our brothers totally took the p*ss, woudlnt listen to us, wouldnt help us out (we had to have the house SPOTLESSLY clean, my mam (Hitler) had a daily inspection and we were in big trouble (usually some form of voilence) if it wasnt done to her "standards". We basically didnt have a childhood, summer holidays were crap, so much work. We couldnt wait to go back to school. It was crap that our friends used to call in for us and we couldnt go anywhere because we had to do the cleaning/feeding of our brothers.

Let your kids be kids!

ceidefields

Like everything, there is a common sense middle ground here. I too was left alone at the age of 12 to mind my 8 year old brother and 4 year old sister and do housework and farm work. I'm talking days on end while my parents went on holiday. I REALLY hated it - I was scared sh1tless during the night when we were on our own in the house. We didn't get up to mischief but it wasn't fun either.

That said, kids DO need some level of responsibility. If they're around the same age and they're 14+, they can let themselves in after school and be expected to have their homework done before dinner. Also some housework each week. There's a vast difference between that and leaving kids alone for extended periods of time to look after their siblings.

Who's that lady

dreamingoak wrote: »

A woman recently left her chil unattended in the car at tesco in greystones. the child was 13. the legal age is 14, i believe. the police were called, she diddnt get out of there for 3 hours, and she was investigated by the social welfare. When I was younger the legal age to be left unsupervised by an adult was 13. I know this because I was starting to go babysitting and had to find out.

I find it hard to believe this happened. Of course, you haven't told us all the facts - maybe he looked like he was aged 6, perhaps he was loitering or had a disability which lowered his mental age therefore the capacity to look after himself. If it happened, the person who reported it clearly had a lot of time on their hands, and crime levels in Greystones must be extremely low for the Gardai to have taken this seriously.

dame

Who's that lady wrote: »

If it happened, the person who reported it clearly had a lot of time on their hands, and crime levels in Greystones must be extremely low for the Gardai to have taken this seriously.

kelle

dreamingoak wrote: »

A woman recently left her chil unattended in the car at tesco in greystones. the child was 13. the legal age is 14, i believe. the police were called, she diddnt get out of there for 3 hours, and she was investigated by the social welfare.

Agree with Who's that lady - this sounds fictitious. I notice the poster has the word "dreaming" in the username...

Bethany

This is pure mad and totally irresponsible!!!! I don't care what people did in the past.In the past, children went up chimneys as chimneys cleaners. That doesn't make it right. Firstly your children deserve a childhood. No child wants to be in charge of other children. This is not a couple of hours situation while the parents go shopping. This is full responsibility for two other children and the house.
Dangers: FIRE, accidents involving normal horseplay,e.g falls , bleeds etc. .answering the door to strangers etc.,losing the temper with younger siblings who are acting out,unfettered access to internet and unsuitable television and DVDs.
I could go on. It's asking for trouble and if you are found out by the authorities , and believe me someone may report you, you could be prosecuted for endangering your children
Perhaps your 13 year old is a great kid and is very capable. However by doing this you are taking advantage of his goodness and compliant nature and it is UNFAIR.
Yeah, you'll save money at the risk of harm coming to the most precious people in your life.
For God's save come up with a solution. Pay a neighbour, get family help, whatever, but don't do this!!

Ayla

dreamingoak wrote: »

So my opinion, and i,m sure that of many others who may for some reason be afraid to say it, is that this is illegal, dangerous, irresponsible, and dreadful parenting, if not not parenting at all. The children are at risk. You should and I hope will be reported. get a childminder before something goes awfully wrong.

Sorry, I was happy enough to leave this thread to die, but since Bethany thought it important to chime in I thought I'd revisit some comments.

This comment made by dreamingoak sums up a lot of opinion on this thread. Basically, a lot of posters believe the OP was irresponsible, if not negligent, to leave his children to fend for themselves during the summer holidays. But the reccuring statement is to get a childminder. This is a reasonable statement and one I don't disagree with.

However this raises a question. As stated by several posters, the legal age for childminding is 14. So would the same posters have raised such irrate objections if the OP were to have hired a 14 year old girl to watch his 13, 11 and 5 year old boys?

If a 14 year old is legally responsible enough to be hired to watch someone else's children, why would a 13 year old not be responsible enough to watch his own brothers?

Nevyn

I would say that there is a big difference in having a young teen baby sit when the children will be for the most part aslep and having them left minding children for at least 9 hours during the day.

Ayla

Of course there's a big difference. But legally speaking, there is nothing saying 14 year olds can only babysit at night or when their charges will most likely be sleeping.

If a 14 year old can be hired to babysit, they can be hired to babysit at any time of day and for any length of time (unless someone knows of a source disputing this)

BostonB

Ayla wrote: »

...
If a 14 year old is legally responsible enough to be hired to watch someone else's children, why would a 13 year old not be responsible enough to watch his own brothers?

Does it matter if its not legal.

Stark

Ayla wrote: »

If a 14 year old can be hired to babysit, they can be hired to babysit at any time of day and for any length of time (unless someone knows of a source disputing
this)

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/employment/starting-work-and-changing-job/young-people-at-work/protection_of_young_people_in_employment

Ayla

Stark wrote: »

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/employment/starting-work-and-changing-job/young-people-at-work/protection_of_young_people_in_employment

Stark, good link. I checked it out and it does say that 14 & 15 yr olds cannot be employed in regular full time employment. Now, I can quite possibly be splitting hairs and playing the devil's advocate, but what's to stop the OP from hiring two 14 year olds, each on a part time basis, to watch his kids?

The point I'm trying to make is that a 14 year old is legally able to be paid to watch someone else's children. That means the State feels they are responsible enough not only to hold a job but also to be mature enough to handle any situation that may arise while childminding. If this is the case, then surely a 13 year old could watch his own siblings, at least on the same part-time basis?

And as a side note, Thaedydal, the same link Stark provided us with does detail the limitations young employees have with working late hours (ie: when the children they're minding are asleep).

jimmycrackcorm

Going back to the ops post, it depends on the 13 year old and how capable they are of the responsibility. Years ago it would not have been an issue so what has changed other than society getting more paranoid. Years ago if there was a problem those same kids went into the neighbours but as Thaedydal pointed out they are probably more likely to ring social services instead these days.

With the advent of mobile phones, parents are more accessible in the event of any emergency and so in practical terms I'd say to the op that what you propose is ok as long as you have the contingency in place whereby your 13 year old has a neighbour to go to for real emergencies. Otherwise it's a practial applicaiton of keeping kids busy.

In respect of Thaedydal's comments on being on the SC's two year watch, Id say that we don't yet live in the Gattaca generation. I remember a news article about a parent who left her child in a shop and basically forgot about the kid. After all the media hoopla SC investigated and took n o further action so they are a tad practical minded about these things.

Splendour

This is a vey interesting thread-a subject on which I have discussed with friends before and no one seems to have any 'legal' answers. Is there a legal age for babysitting?

I myself have two boys age 11 and 13. Would I feel secure leaving them alone all day whilst I went out to work-no way! Do I feel secure leaving them alone whilst I nip down the road to do my weekly grocery shopping-yes. Am I breaking the law? I haven't a clue because I don't know what the law is.

I agree with alot of posters here in that this generation have certainly wrapped our kids up in cotton wool. So much so in fact that wheras the next the next generation may be better educated than we were, they are absolute fools as regards everyday 'life' skills. Yet, in another sense they have alot more pressure put on them with regards to drink,drugs,sex etc...

When I look at my children I cannot imagine them living the life I led as a thirteen year old. I had responsibility not only with regards to my siblings (albeit only for a couple of hours here and there), I also had a part time job in an up market retail store advising and serving customers. I cannot imagine my 13 year old having the cop on to do this!!

I definitely think the OP (if he's for real), is absolutely wrong to leave a 13 year old in charge of a five year old.On another level however, I think we really need to look at how we are treating our children now. The lack of responibility they now have in my opinion leads them to bordom and insecurity which in turn leads them on to seek kicks elsewhere. We as adults are responsible for and need to address this...

kelle

Splendour wrote: »

I definitely think the OP (if he's for real), .

I think the OP is for real, he's too embarassed to make a statement after all the replies attacking him!

Nevyn

Like I said earlier in the thread we don't have laws against people doing stupid things,
id there is no law about sticking a fork in your eye.

SarahMc

Ayla wrote: »

...what's to stop the OP from hiring two 14 year olds, each on a part time basis, to watch his kids?

The point I'm trying to make is that a 14 year old is legally able to be paid to watch someone else's children. .

The Childcare Act states a person must be 18 in order to provide daycare for children. However, at present this refers to pre-school children only. Likely to be amended very soon to include school age children.

dreamingoak

Hi. Just noticed this discussion.. Hm, well in hindsight i'm not actually certain thats true, ( mother of a thirteen year old left in car at tesco getting grief from police) as the lady who told me about it has a hisstory of tall tales ( u know who u are, lol) so I cant actually vouch for that particular tale myself. however, I do firmly feel that it's not right to leave children at home minding each other all day. Times have changed nd it's just not acceptable anymore. And the social welfare would be down on these people in a second.

Demonique

angeldelight wrote: »

Do you not see anything wrong with this? A 13 year old child has unlimited unsupervised internet access for hours every day. That is not a good idea to start with.

Yeah, unless you have parental controls on your son's laptop, he's 13 and more than likely will know he can find pictures of naked 'boobies' on the internet and don't think that he won't be looking! He's a 13 year old BOY

Demonique

di11on wrote: »

Man, I blame the Irish ecomony for this situation. It's ridiculous. Over priced house prices and ... over priced everything means people just can't afford to give their kids the attention and care they need. I think its a complete disaster for society that the OP has to face this difficult question at all... and she can't be the only one out there.
.

Some moron on some other board blamed "wimmin" working outside the home on the high price of houses. Apparently two incomes = people can afford to pay double the prices houses were before wimmin got the ungodly notion that their rightful place was somewhere other than being at home waiting on their husband's every desire.


People having a hard time affording houses can't possibly have anything to do with the fact that a lot of people don't save when they first start working and that some people want the house, the car and several holidays a year (I know several people who do this and then they turn around and whinge about it 'being good for some' at the people who shock!horror! didn't living beyond their means when they first started working)

Demonique

LadyE wrote: »

My sister and I were left home to mind our younger brothers from a young age (12).

It was awful, our brothers totally took the p*ss, woudlnt listen to us, wouldnt help us out (we had to have the house SPOTLESSLY clean, my mam (Hitler) had a daily inspection and we were in big trouble (usually some form of voilence) if it wasnt done to her "standards".

While we weren't left alone to look after younger siblings, there was less than four years between the oldest (me) and the youngest of us three girls. While we didn't get slapped (apart from the time the old bag accused me of stealing £20 (which she'd left in her locker at work) and tried to beat a confession out of me with a horse whip*) my mother would whinge, scream, bitch and moan if the house wasn't up to her standards.

My consolation is that I'm the one that gets to choose her nursing home.

*Oh and if you so much as lightly slap my mother on the hand she starts howling about how could you 'hit' your mother