positive discrimination

maryjane1

would you send your child to a preschool that "positvely discriminates" i.e. reserves priority places for ethnic minorities. which is compleyely above board and legal.

in my eyes a form of racism. why should race be a factor in obtaining a place in anything nonetheless pre school? surely this is discriminating against anyone who is not of an ethnic minority based on their ethnicity which is illegal isnt it? what are your opinions?

Nevyn

There is the early start program that runs in schools in disadvantaged areas but those places are for children with issues and not the standard child.

Is that what you mean ?

maryjane1

thats not what i mean. im talking about a local pre school which has restructured their admissions policy. priority is given in the following order: "finacially disadvantaged, ethnic minority and neither of the above"

luckat

If I felt as you do (which I don't), then no, I wouldn't send a child there.

Nevyn

IF you are not not happy about how a privately run company is slecting it's customers then you should contact the equity commision to see if they fall under thier remit.

G&T

If the playschool is local then Im assuming the children from it will go to the local primary school.
So your child is going to have these "group's" in his class anyway.

I would have no problem sending my child there,
I would rather a child grow up in an environment that mirror's the real world.

maryjane1

Thaedydal wrote:

IF you are not not happy about how a privately run company is slecting it's customers then you should contact the equity commision to see if they fall under thier remit.

it isnt privately run its funded and as i said it is legal.

maryjane1

but do you think that it is a good thing to discrimate between children because of their race. we are supposed to have laws to protect against this yet it is still legal

silja

I wouldn't send my child to such a school, no (husband and I are both white, but not born in Ireland- does that make us one of the minorities?). I think discrimination is wrong, whether it is based on sex, race, or anything else. Kids should get into a school based on where they live, if it is a public school.

That being said, we are likely not going to send our children to public school anyway, we plan to homeschool.

maniac101

maryjane1 wrote:

but do you think that it is a good thing to discrimate between children because of their race. we are supposed to have laws to protect against this yet it is still legal

In principle I'm in favour of the concept of ensuring that there's a racial balance in the classroom that reflects the diversity in society in general. It helps avoid the situation where large numbers of non-english-speaking children are concentrated in a few schools, thus holding back the education of all attending that school. I probably wouldn't use the word "discrimination" though. It implies that Irish children are discriminated against while at school, which of course isn't the case.

Nevyn

maryjane1 wrote:

it isnt privately run its funded and as i said it is legal.

Funded by whom ?
Is it a private run business who gets grants and occasional funding ?
Is it a ngo, like barandos ?
Is it a run in conjuntion with the health board ?
or is it an early start program with in a school ?

Honestly I understand the need for children who do not have english as one of their primary languages to have preschool, esp those who are of a very different culture and need to adjust.

Better that they do it in preschool then when they start national school.

silja this is not school but kindergarden/prechool that maryjane1 is refering to but she has yet to explain what type.

Ayla

Discrimination, either "positively" or otherwise is just that...discrimination. Ranking (or placing priority with) children based on something they have no control over (ie: cultural background) is wrong in my opinion.

I agree that we need to create a balanced and equal environment, however by selecting some over others based on cultural background you're automatically discriminating. This time the discrimination is just against the majority.

This type of selection process is called "Affirmative Action" in the states, and I've seen first-hand how it can ultimately work against the theory. The problem comes when you give "priority" places or "first" opportunity to the minorities...the places/opportunities should be equal, not better, then those offered to everyone else.

maryjane1

Thaedydal wrote:

Funded by whom ?
Is it a private run business who gets grants and occasional funding ?
Is it a ngo, like barandos ?
Is it a run in conjuntion with the health board ?
or is it an early start program with in a school ?

Honestly I understand the need for children who do not have english as one of their primary languages to have preschool, esp those who are of a very different culture and need to adjust.

Better that they do it in preschool then when they start national school.

silja this is not school but kindergarden/prechool that maryjane1 is refering to but she has yet to explain what type.

it is a community playschool and as such is run solely on funding and the small fee payable. it is funded by pobal. it is not attched to a primary school.

what is the need to explain all this? does any of this make a difference betwwen being discriminatory or not?

maryjane1

Ayla wrote:

Discrimination, either "positively" or otherwise is just that...discrimination. Ranking (or placing priority with) children based on something they have no control over (ie: cultural background) is wrong in my opinion.

I agree that we need to create a balanced and equal environment, however by selecting some over others based on cultural background you're automatically discriminating. This time the discrimination is just against the majority.

This type of selection process is called "Affirmative Action" in the states, and I've seen first-hand how it can ultimately work against the theory. The problem comes when you give "priority" places or "first" opportunity to the minorities...the places/opportunities should be equal, not better, then those offered to everyone else.

ive been reading up on it and apparently the supreme court in the states has ruled that it cannot be based on race in the last year or two (not exactly sure). but im open to correction on this. its also illegal in the uk as its against their anto racism laws.

dame

Pre-school children know nothing about race. They may notice that some kids are blondes, some are red-heads, some have darker colouring, but it's only in the same way they'd notice that some are boys, some are girls or some have pigtails. It doesn't matter to them. What might affect the children is hearing or seeing their parents making distinctions or complaining about ethnic minorities.

Are you concerned with this because your child was denied a place or because they do attend and you think there are too many children there who are financially disadvantaged or from an ethnic minority?

maryjane1

dame wrote:

Are you concerned with this because your child was denied a place or because they do attend and you think there are too many children there who are financially disadvantaged or from an ethnic minority?

my son has not been denied a place he is too young yet his name is on the waiting list for when he is older. i dont know what race anyone in the playgroup is at present as the race of the children in it is irrelevant to me as is how much money they have. why should that matter? as for your ridiculous comment about being concerned because they do attend i wont even credit that with an answer.

as i have already stated for people who do not understand: the thing that bothers me is that places for this preschool are given out in a discriminatory way. if any child is financially disadvantaged they are prioritsed anyway regardless of their ethnicity. these are two year olds why should their race be a factor in anything that they do, whether they are black, white or green with orange spots!!!!!!!

Shelli

maniac101 wrote:

I probably wouldn't use the word "discrimination" though. It implies that Irish children are discriminated against while at school, which of course isn't the case.

It's exactly what it is, if Irish children are not being allowed into this pre-school because they are Irish and not a "minority" then they are being discriminated against for being Irish.

I believe everyone should be treated equally, in a publicly funded school this is based on location, in a private it should be in a first come first served basis. Reserving places for racial minorities is racism, end of story.

Nevyn

I dont think it is racism I think it is based on the needs of the children in the community.

The Corinthian

Thaedydal wrote:

I dont think it is racism I think it is based on the needs of the children in the community.

Well if you discriminate on the basis of race then it is racism, by definition, regardless of whether the discrimination is positive or negative.

Would I send my child to such a school? TBH, 'financially disadvantaged' would probably bother me more than 'ethnic minorities' as they are more likely to bring social baggage with them that would, by association, influence my child.

As for ethnic minorities, I suppose it would depend upon the minority and the culture they come from, so were they Asian children they would more likely come from a background that would encourage academic achievement, so I'd actually favour this, while gypsy children would come from a background that I frankly would consider negative and thus would not want it rubbing off my child (a moot point because they almost never send their children to school).

Similarly, were I living in the US I would have issues with my child being lumped in with black children, while if I was in the UK I'd not have the same reservations. So it would be more the culture than the race that would be an issue for me.

Of course, this is probably not a very politically correct view, but given the choice of social justice and my child's wellbeing I'm more than happy to throw the former out the window.

Nevyn

maryjane1 have you asked for a copy of their policies and procedure which outline their criteria for selecting which children ?

It think you may find it is children at risk or with difficulties in their family set up that will get places. If it is funded as you say then it will be run in conjunction with your local health boards 'baby' nurse and she should be able to furnish you with those documents if those running the group can not.

A lot of these groups/places have been set up to nip a lot of problems in the bud before these children get to primary school and include parenting classes for the parents of the toddlers.

metrovelvet

If you sent your child to such a school, where children were promoted based on their ethnicity, then you would risk your child being perceived as having had a hand up because somewhere along the line they qualified as an ethnic minority and not because they deserved them based on achievement or talent.

Having recently undergone surgery where the head of the surgical team was a black woman, I had a momentary feeling of horror that I was about to be sliced open by an affirmative action candidate. Had positive discrimination not been in place, I certainly would not have had this flash of horror. Yes I know I know.... Im so bad for thinking and feeling this... but this is a product of positive discrimination, where the world around you does not quite trust your accreditations because the world around you is not sure if you have them based on race or on merit.

Also wouldnt you want your child competing/collaborating with children who are on the same level academically with him or her? You won't get that in a classroom where children are placed based soley on ethnicity.

Nevyn

This is not a class room this is a preschool group for children aged 3 to 6, by the sound of it.

The Corinthian

Thaedydal wrote:

This is not a class room this is a preschool group for children aged 3 to 6, by the sound of it.

That is is a preschool group doesn't lessen the importance of the influence that such an environment will have on the child's development though to the point that it can be ignored.

Shelli

metrovelvet wrote:

Also wouldnt you want your child competing/collaborating with children who are on the same level academically with him or her? You won't get that in a classroom where children are placed based soley on ethnicity.

Are you implying that children of different races or financial situations would not be on the same academic level?
In my experience the opposite is true, obviously not at a preschool level, but in later years these children study much harder in order to prove that they are at the same level and often do much better than Irish children because of it, they also seem to have more encouragement from their parents who have come to Ireland for a better life and better education for their children, and they make sure to make the most of it.

Nevyn

The Corinthian wrote:

That is is a preschool group doesn't lessen the importance of the influence that such an environment will have on the child's development though to the point that it can be ignored.

True and as parents we have to discriminate in many ways for the good of our children from what they wear, eat, read and in some cases who they are friends with and if a certain environment has a negative impact then we have to look at
removing our children from it or not placing them there in the first place.

The reason for clarifying what type of group this is that the rules are different for a private preschool, a preschool attached to a primary school, a barnado's/gno preschool or a community funded preschool.

Nevyn

Shelli wrote:

Are you implying that children of different races or financial situations would not be on the same academic level?

That is happening Shelli, that is why there are early start programs and after school home work clubs in most of the school which are deemed to be in a disadvantaged areas.

It is not a case of different races but different cultures and of English not being a strong language at home.

Shelli wrote:

In my experience the opposite is true, obviously not at a preschool level, but in later years these children study much harder in order to prove that they are at the same level and often do much better than Irish children because of it, they also seem to have more encouragement from their parents who have come to Ireland for a better life and better education for their children, and they make sure to make the most of it.

Which is why for the most part, places in such programs are reserved for children who need them.

The Corinthian

Shelli wrote:

In my experience the opposite is true, obviously not at a preschool level, but in later years these children study much harder in order to prove that they are at the same level and often do much better than Irish children because of it, they also seem to have more encouragement from their parents who have come to Ireland for a better life and better education for their children, and they make sure to make the most of it.

Well in my experience the opposite is not true, at least in the case of financial situations, as many of the issues that affect children from such backgrounds will continue to act against them. So there you go.

maniac101

There appears to be a view that foreign children are at an advantage because some pre-school places are reserved for ethnic minorities. In reality, foreign national parents generally experience far greater difficulties getting their children into the schools of their choice than Irish parents do. Anecdote suggests that this difficulty varies depending on the creed and the skin colour of the children, as well as on their nationalities. A policy such as the one that maryjane describes is intended to redress the balance. This policy is not racist, it's a measure to combat societal racism. In other words, it's an attempt (albeit a crude one) to right a wrong. Ideally, societal problems should not have to be addressed in school admissions policies – but this isn't an ideal world.

metrovelvet

Shelli wrote:

Are you implying that children of different races or financial situations would not be on the same academic level?
In my experience the opposite is true, obviously not at a preschool level, but in later years these children study much harder in order to prove that they are at the same level and often do much better than Irish children because of it, they also seem to have more encouragement from their parents who have come to Ireland for a better life and better education for their children, and they make sure to make the most of it.

Comparing immigrants with natives is not the same as comparing different races or ethnicities. You can be a native but not white, just as you can be an immigrant but be white or even Irish by heritage.

What I am more than implying is that in programs where there are government imposed quotas on admissions and where promotion is not based on merit or talent but on skin colour or ethnicity,that there is a high chance that those students who did "benefit" from positive discrimination were not at the same level academically; if they were they wouldn't need to exploit the policy which admits them into schools having lesser test scores and grades then their caucasian counterparts.

What I am also saying is that while it attempt to redress racism, it in the end amplifies and reinforces it.

Nevyn

Academically ?

/me wonders how colouring in, stack the blocks and learning to not bite the other children are academic subjects...

maryjane1

Thaedydal wrote:

maryjane1 have you asked for a copy of their policies and procedure which outline their criteria for selecting which children ?

It think you may find it is children at risk or with difficulties in their family set up that will get places. If it is funded as you say then it will be run in conjunction with your local health boards 'baby' nurse and she should be able to furnish you with those documents if those running the group can not.

A lot of these groups/places have been set up to nip a lot of problems in the bud before these children get to primary school and include parenting classes for the parents of the toddlers.

i have asked at the playschool who decides if someone meets the criteria for their selection process and she said the parents themselves. the form has a section where you tick if you are financially disadvantaged or ethnic minority.