Rezoning for new Gaelscoil in Mayfield refused

florodon2

Link to a site which wants to 'Save The Tank Field'

http://www.tankfield.ie/

professore

florodon2 wrote: »

First thoughts: Is it true that the Gaelscoil requires 2.56 acres? I had to look at the Dept of Education site to see what they say about buildings and sites. According to the Dept of Education Guidelines for School Site Area Analysis, the size is calculated on a 2 storey building with 16 Classrooms. This is available on the website of the Dept, Document TGD-025 Page 6. This states that the site required is between 2.56 and 3.70 acres. According to another document from the same site, Document Building Location & Orientation TGD-020 page 15, "Allowance for future building and external expansion must be at least 33%." As I read it, the Gaelscoil requires 2.56 acres, plus 33%, and that equals 3.41 acres in total. This is the minimum the school requires. That 3.41 acres would certainly prevent Brian Dillons Club having enough space for a full sized pitch. I wonder if the players and their parents of Brian Dillons Club realise that they could lose their pitch?

I would interpret that differently, in that there should be room within the 2.56 acres for a 33% expansion if required in the future. Otherwise it would be a ridiculous system. There is no question of Brian Dillons losing a pitch.

professore

florodon2 wrote: »

Link to a site which wants to 'Save The Tank Field'

http://www.tankfield.ie/

Interesting, you also have savethetankfield.com, which is a much nicer design IMHO. You should link up and save on duplicating your efforts.

It goes into great detail about the Board of Management "rejecting" various sites. This is not true as it is not in their power. It is the Dept. Of Education and An Bórd Pleanala that makes these decisions. If you think there is something corrupt about the planning process well that is who you need to take it up with, not the Board of Management of the school.

Another interesting point is:

On the 26/3/2011 the Gaelscoil had a protest march through the city centre. This cost the tax-payer whatever it costs to supply 2 Garda Bikes, 2 Garda Cars and 1 HSE Ambulance and associated personnel. In addition they interrupted the traffic flow in the city centre. I'm sure commercial business suffered as a result. As if times are not hard enough. It appears that these people are only interested in building in the tank field. They have refused alternative sites offered by the Department of Education. I'm not sure what the attraction is with the tank field. Why should the people, and in particular the young people, who live in the environs of the tank field have suffer because a group of people, many of whom live outside the area, want to build a school at the tax-payers expense on the Tank Field. Different if it was the only option but it is not.

"These people" are interested in a proper school for their children. There are plenty of young people IN the area suffering because of substandard prefabs. At the moment it is the ONLY option.

I could equally say that why should 200+ children have their education and health compromised because of a small group of mostly retired people with a NIMBY attitude who are holding up a much needed development that will in reality have very little overall effect on their ability to enjoy the Tank Field, provide a focus for activities such as meetings and adult education after school hours and will considerably add to the overall attractiveness of the area and property values.

On the march itself, what about the basic democratic right of assembly? Also by your own admission on this thread there were Gardai also present at your protest on the same day in the Tank Field.

florodon2

I fully agree with you that there needs to be an enquiry into the planning process. I feel sure you will support such an enquiry when it takes place. By the way, I have no connection with the Save the Tank Field website, but it is a place to find some information on the gaelscoil controversy.

"It goes into great detail about the Board of Management "rejecting" various sites. This is not true as it is not in their power. It is the Dept. Of Education and An Bórd Pleanala that makes these decisions."

It is clear from documents obtained under the freedom of information that in 2000 the Gaelscoil agreed that the Tinkers Cross site was suitable. The Department of Education Technical Officer considered the site suitable. The Gaelscoil were aware that the Department of Education had instructed the Office of Public Works to commence the purchase of the site from Cork City Council.

See http://www.tankfield.ie/html/Page%2018.pdf
As late as May 2010, the Dept of Education suggests building on the site at Tinkers Cross. The ongoing delay would seem to result from the Board of Management of the school. The Dept proposed to "meet formally with the school authorities". The document is more than a year old. Has the Dept not been in contact with the Board of Management since then?

"There are plenty of young people IN the area suffering because of substandard prefabs."

In WHAT area? It would help if you would be more precise. I contend that 99.9% of children in the area are NOT suffering because their parents have chosen NOT to send them to be educated in “substandard prefabs.” It is parental choice.

I could equally say that why should 200+ children have their education and health compromised because of a small group of mostly retired people with a NIMBY attitude…

If the health and education of the children is compromised it is because the parents have chosen to send their children to be educated in 'substandard prefabs.' It is plainly wrong to blame others for your choices and the consequences of your choices.

"… a much needed development …"

The gaelscoil is NOT A MUCH NEEDED development, except in the eyes of the those who wish to see a gaelscoil built on the Tank Field.

"… provide a focus for activities such as meetings and adult education after school hours…"

Please list those primary schools that open after hours and allow meetings to be held on the premises, and who provide adult education. With the Mayfield Community School only a couple of minutes away, there would be little if any need for adult education in the proposed gaelscoil.

… will considerably add to the overall attractiveness of the area and property values.

I fail to see how a two-storey building on the only open green space in the area would add to the overall attractiveness of the area and property values. With the proposed gaelscoil wrapped in high railings and the City Council fencing off the rest of the Tank Field on behalf of Brian Dillons, the whole area will be fenced in. It will resemble a type of concentration camp more than an open green area. The Tank Field will be closed to all except gaelscoil pupils and GAA club members. I suppose that being elderly, or not having good Irish, or not being involved in the GAA club, means that I am totally useless and disposable.

Oafley Jones

professore wrote: »

I could equally say that why should 200+ children have their education and health compromised because of a small group of mostly retired people with a NIMBY attitude who are holding up a much needed development that will in reality have very little overall effect on their ability to enjoy the Tank Field, provide a focus for activities such as meetings and adult education after school hours and will considerably add to the overall attractiveness of the area and property values.

I have to say that this sentence has irritated me in a number of ways. The hilarious part about "adding to the attractiveness" could even put a smile on Liam Carroll's face. "Mostly retired people" - well they are old aren't they, how could their desires possibly compete with what I feel is in my offsprings interest. It's all just another example of the deeply obnoxious - that poll really cut the legs from under you prof - attitude of self righteousness that some people seem to unfortunately get upon reproducing.

professore

Oafley Jones wrote: »

I have to say that this sentence has irritated me in a number of ways. The hilarious part about "adding to the attractiveness" could even put a smile on Liam Carroll's face. "Mostly retired people" - well they are old aren't they, how could their desires possibly compete with what I feel is in my offsprings interest. It's all just another example of the deeply obnoxious - that poll really cut the legs from under you prof - attitude of self righteousness that some people seem to unfortunately get upon reproducing.

I make no apologies for looking after the interests of my children. If you find that obnoxious well then there's something seriously wrong with you.

Believe it or not I CAN see why you would prefer there not to be a school there. What am I supposed to do though? Let my kids continue to suffer substandard conditions because I don't want to offend you? Sorry but it ain't going to happen.

I was just using that paragraph to highlight the tone that was presented on the website. I said that "I could say" before it. These were not my actual opinions - especially about the older people - although I stand by the NIMBY comment. Saying that many of the children are "not from the area" - whatever that means - is just as irrelevant as me saying the protestors are mostly older people. By the way I would estimate that 90% of them live within 1 mile of the school. As usual you pick and choose things out of context to suit your argument. Dirty tricks are nothing new though to the tank field brigade.

I have every respect for older people - my own parents are elderly believe it or not! I enjoy nothing better than sitting down with an older person and having a good chat about life. I hope though that when I get to that age myself that I will not be so bitter and small minded as some people appear to be. I think if you are to have only one goal in life it should be to leave the world in a better state than it was when you came into it. I really genuinely believe that having proper school facilities is one way of doing that.

As for the poll - for what must be the 30th time now I say this on this thread - it was lighthearted as in my naivety I imagined it would be taken in that vein, but that soon went out the window with the torrent of abuse that followed unfortunately. I suppose that's all you really have, as otherwise your arguments are threadbare.

If anyone is self righteous it is the Save the Tank Field supporters who appear to be utterly humourless and ruthless in their own self interested agenda. Even Ian Paisley and Martin McGuinness managed to sit down and get on together!

I wish that there was some alternative site open to Gaelscoil An Gort Alainn. I would be jumping up and down to have the school built there. However there is nowhere else on offer. That is the fact of the matter. If there is, why can the Tank Field supporters not help the planning process for the alternative site ????? Do something positive for a change ?????? Or at least produce a document showing granted planning for an alternative site ??? I challenge you to do this. I have challenged you before but when it comes to it you never come up with anything. Funny that.

professore

http://www.tankfield.ie/html/Page%2018.pdf

Looking at this document, a few points:

1. The Board of Management ENCOURAGED investigation of alternative sites at Mayfield community school and a nearby convent
2. These sites were rejected BY THE DEPARTMENT
3. They were proposing to discuss the Tinkers Cross site with the Board of Management, which apparently they say opinion was divided, but the BOM recognises that site as a possible solution.

I haven't heard anything from the school on any further contacts about this site. However I do know that the residents association there are likely to cause problems too. I for one would be delighted to have the school there or anywhere else nearby for that matter. I don't see it happening though, I see this Tinkers Cross site as a political football.

florodon2

professore wrote: »

I wish that there was some alternative site open to Gaelscoil An Gort Alainn. I would be jumping up and down to have the school built there. However there is nowhere else on offer. That is the fact of the matter. If there is, why can the Tank Field supporters not help the planning process for the alternative site ????? Do something positive for a change ?????? Or at least produce a document showing granted planning for an alternative site ??? I challenge you to do this. I have challenged you before but when it comes to it you never come up with anything. Funny that.

Funny indeed. Almost as hilarious as your ‘poll’. Just in case your statement was not meant to be funny, perhaps the following might help.

You have insisted that the Gaelscoil Board of Management has nothing to do with choosing the Tank Field as the site of preference for the school. As a result of the machinations, that private deal between the Gaelscoil, Brian Dillons officials and some official(s) in the Cork City Council, to the land-grab the Tank Field from the public, I am surprised you should continue to claim that the Gaelscoil Board of Management has had nothing to do with the choosing the Tank Field as the site of preference on which to build the school.

Mayfield Community School and Tinkers Cross were investigated by the Dept of Education. The Tinkers Cross site had been approved for purchase by the Department but no-one has been able to discover why the process was not finalised, nor when the decision was made not to proceed with the process (and at whose instigation) because the documents have been ‘mislaid’. No-one has been able to discover why the Mayfield Community School site was considered unsuitable because, again, the documents were ‘mislaid’. How convenient for the Dept of Education and the Gaelscoil Board of Management!

You ask why the Tank Field supporters don’t help the planning process. If you read the submissions by the various residents associations you will find that they have tried to help in any way possible. If the Gaelscoil itself has no say in where the school is built (Yeah! Right!) then how could the residents and any other objectors have even a remote chance of any input into the choice of site?

The following is taken from the submission of the Montenotte Park Residents Association in their objection to any further building or development on the Tank Field.

1. In May 2010, Mr. Jason Kearney, the Principal Officer in charge of site acquisitions in the Building Unit of the Department of Education and Skills, wrote to the Tánaiste and Minister for Education and Skills, recommending the purchase of a site in Tinkers Cross for the school. That site is still available.
2. Mayfield GAA Club has written on two occasions to the Department of Education offering to sell a site on surplus lands that they own in Boherboy, Mayfield.
3. There is land in state ownership in the Camp Field which would be well located and suited as a site for the school.
4. There is an extensive land bank in state ownership in Mayfield Community School. As stated elsewhere, this school is operating well below its design capacity and the state owned assets in the school and the school grounds are underutilised and fallow.
5. In March 2010, Montenotte Park Residents Association wrote to the Building Unit of Department of Education and Skills and provided a list of over a dozen sites that would be suitable for the school. None of these have been assessed from the technical, educational, or value for money perspectives.

You have continued to state that the Board of Management of the Gaelscoil has nothing to do with choosing the Tank Field as the location for the school, that the Dept of Education is making all the decisions. Yet, somehow you now want to blame the residents of the area for not finding the best location, and even for not getting planning for the Gaelscoil for that site, wherever it might be.

It was the residents who pointed out to the planning authorities and An Bord Planala that the power cables crossing the eastern part of the Tank Field meant that the pitches could not be re-sited or re-aligned. The planning authorities and An Bord Planala totally ignored that contribution. Of course, we know that ABP totally ignored the report of their own inspector that planning should be refused. It was the ESB which eventually brought a stop to the mad charge to carve up the Tank Field between the Gaelscoil and Brian Dillons Club.

You ask for documentation. Every scrap of information that is presently available to the local residents, and to all who object to the building of a Gaelscoil on the Tank Field, has had to be dragged out of the Dept of Education, and even that has been largely censored. Little or nothing has been made available concerning that shady deal concocted by the Gaelscoil, Brian Dillons Club and the Cork City Council.

Funny indeed. Definitely time for an Official Sworn Inquiry into the whole sordid mess.

professore

You have insisted that the Gaelscoil Board of Management has nothing to do with choosing the Tank Field as the site of preference for the school. As a result of the machinations, that private deal between the Gaelscoil, Brian Dillons officials and some official(s) in the Cork City Council, to the land-grab the Tank Field from the public, I am surprised you should continue to claim that the Gaelscoil Board of Management has had nothing to do with the choosing the Tank Field as the site of preference on which to build the school.

I claim no such thing. Since I am not on the Board of Management myself, or have never been at one of their private meetings I cannot claim it or speak for them. All I am saying is that there is no evidence whatsoever of it. The BOM can express a preference for a particular site, but that is hardly "machinations" or a "private deal". I don't know what they said or didn't say. If there is no evidence then all you have is hearsay.

Mayfield Community School and Tinkers Cross were investigated by the Dept of Education. The Tinkers Cross site had been approved for purchase by the Department but no-one has been able to discover why the process was not finalised, nor when the decision was made not to proceed with the process (and at whose instigation) because the documents have been ‘mislaid’. No-one has been able to discover why the Mayfield Community School site was considered unsuitable because, again, the documents were ‘mislaid’. How convenient for the Dept of Education and the Gaelscoil Board of Management!

If they were 'mislaid' as you claim, how is that the fault of the BOM ? I believe the Mayfield Community site was too small - If I understand correctly it was the overflow parking area beside the gym and is indeed quite small.

You ask why the Tank Field supporters don’t help the planning process. If you read the submissions by the various residents associations you will find that they have tried to help in any way possible. If the Gaelscoil itself has no say in where the school is built (Yeah! Right!) then how could the residents and any other objectors have even a remote chance of any input into the choice of site?

Don't you understand the planning process? You submit a plan and if no one objects and it is approved by the relevant planning authorities it goes ahead. If someone objects it has to be investigated. So you do have an input - if you didn't the school would have been built years ago - probably somewhere else by the way.

You have continued to state that the Board of Management of the Gaelscoil has nothing to do with choosing the Tank Field as the location for the school, that the Dept of Education is making all the decisions. Yet, somehow you now want to blame the residents of the area for not finding the best location, and even for not getting planning for the Gaelscoil for that site, wherever it might be.

I never said I was blaming the residents. I merely suggested they could assist in a positive way to find another site, for example helping to find out why the Tinkers Cross site was rejected for example. It would further their own aims.

It was the residents who pointed out to the planning authorities and An Bord Planala that the power cables crossing the eastern part of the Tank Field meant that the pitches could not be re-sited or re-aligned. The planning authorities and An Bord Planala totally ignored that contribution. Of course, we know that ABP totally ignored the report of their own inspector that planning should be refused. It was the ESB which eventually brought a stop to the mad charge to carve up the Tank Field between the Gaelscoil and Brian Dillons Club.

And rightly so. And it was correct of you to point out what is obviously a safety hazard. I have no dispute with that whatsoever.

You ask for documentation. Every scrap of information that is presently available to the local residents, and to all who object to the building of a Gaelscoil on the Tank Field, has had to be dragged out of the Dept of Education, and even that has been largely censored. Little or nothing has been made available concerning that shady deal concocted by the Gaelscoil, Brian Dillons Club and the Cork City Council.

Funny indeed. Definitely time for an Official Sworn Inquiry into the whole sordid mess.

Yes we have a great and proud history of rooting out corruption and sending the guilty parties to jail when it comes to tribunals and public enquiries in this country. I too would like to see a proper investigation if I thought it would actually achieve anything other than cost a fortune and slow things up further.

If it was planning to build housing or office blocks then I would agree it is quite possible there was some sort of shady dealings going on. But a school? For corruption someone has to benefit financially, otherwise why do it? Only a construction company would have some benefit.

However whoever rents the prefabs to the school would be losing a big income stream and surely they would be against the school being built? And since not one brick has been laid and this has been going on for years, it looks like if there are any "machinations" they are likely to be ones stopping the school being built. I already have a daughter in secondary school and when she started school we were told that work would begin next year on a new school. Go figure.

florodon2

Reading the documents available under the Freedom of Information Act (at least those parts not censored) it seems to me that it was the Gaelscoil stopped the building of the school at Tinkers/Mayfield Cross.

On 27 June 2000, Padraig MacFhlannchadha, Principal of the Gaelscoil, wrote to Mary Horan, Planning Section in the Dept of Education, saying “The Board of Management has earmarked the site at Tinker’s Cross as most suitable for the Gaelscoil’s long term accommodation requirements…” Among the reasons why it would be most suitable was the large site and that the “site is central ie situated at where a number of roads converge which will facilitate the school’s wide catchment area.”

On 14 July 2000, in a letter to Mary Horan, Joe Davis, Technical Manager in the Dept of Education, stated that the site “… is at the centre of the schools catchment area.” He also reported “Overall the site is very suitable for our needs…”

On 26 July 2000, George Ross, Chairperson of the Board of Management of the Gaelscoil, wrote to Mary Horan, stating that successful discussions had been held with Dan Buggy and Tony Brauders of Cork Corporation, the owners of the site at Tinkers Cross. He reported that the way was now clear to open formal negotiatons with the Corporation and “commence your dealings on what the Board hopes will be the site of the new school.”

18 October, Eamon Cusack, Executive Officer in Dept of Education, sent Mary Horan a memo recommending the purchase of the site. He filled out the requisite site acquisition request to be forwarded to the Property Management Section of the Office of Public Works, which deals with the purchasing of site etc.

Also on 18 October Mary Horan wrote to George Ross, saying that she had sent the documentation to the Office of Public Works and that he should expect a visit from Martin O Gorman of the OPW within the next few weeks.

The Dept of Education had been looking for a site for St Paul’s Special School run by the COPE foundation. As the site at Tinkers Cross was about 5 acres, it was decided to ask the OPW to see if St Paul’s School and the Gaelscoil could be co-located there.

On 10 December 2001, Joe Gavin, the City Manager, brought a proposal before the Council. His discussions with the Dept of Education had led to a proposal that the Gaelscoil and the school for COPE foundation would be built at Tinkers Cross, which he was now calling Mayfield Cross. In his report to the City Council, he sought the approval for the sale of the land for the schools.

The minutes of the meeting of the Corporation record that, “An Comhairle approved the report of the City Manager & Town Clerk dated 6th November 2001 in relation to lands at Mayfield Cross, Old Youghal Road."

With the agreement and approval of the Board of Management of the Gaelscoil, the Dept of Education and the City Council, the process of building the Gaelscoil on the site at Mayfield/Tinkers Cross could commence immediately. If it had proceeded, the Gaelscoil would have been built and in use years ago.

In June 2002, the process took a strange turn. A note from the Board of Management of the Gaelscoil (dated 2 Meitheamh 2002) to “Neighbours” has the following:
“As you are aware we are trying to get a site for a permanent school. The Office of Public Works are engaged in discussions with the Department of Education and Cork Corporation concerning a possible site in the vicinity of Tinkers’ Cross Mayfield.
At the same time Brian Dillons would like us to remain on and it would equally be our preferred option if we could do so.”

I would, respectfully, suggest you ask the hard questions of the Board of Management of the Gaelscoil:

1. Why would the Gaelscoil turn its back on a site which they found “most suitable for the Gaelscoil’s long term accommodation requirements”?
2. Who made the decision to stop the process already underway to have the school built at the site at Tinkers Cross?
3. Why was the process stopped?
4. What (or who) was the connection with Brian Dillons Club which led to the flow of money into the coffers of Brian Dillons club being more important than the education of the children in the Gaelscoil in proper and suitable accommodation?
5. Why would some (or all) of the Board of Management of the Gaelscoil choose to continue to educate the school children in prefabs rather than a new building on the site at Tinkers Cross?

professore

florodon2 wrote: »

Reading the documents available under the Freedom of Information Act (at least those parts not censored) it seems to me that it was the Gaelscoil stopped the building of the school at Tinkers/Mayfield Cross.

On 27 June 2000, Padraig MacFhlannchadha, Principal of the Gaelscoil, wrote to Mary Horan, Planning Section in the Dept of Education, saying “The Board of Management has earmarked the site at Tinker’s Cross as most suitable for the Gaelscoil’s long term accommodation requirements…” Among the reasons why it would be most suitable was the large site and that the “site is central ie situated at where a number of roads converge which will facilitate the school’s wide catchment area.”

On 14 July 2000, in a letter to Mary Horan, Joe Davis, Technical Manager in the Dept of Education, stated that the site “… is at the centre of the schools catchment area.” He also reported “Overall the site is very suitable for our needs…”

On 26 July 2000, George Ross, Chairperson of the Board of Management of the Gaelscoil, wrote to Mary Horan, stating that successful discussions had been held with Dan Buggy and Tony Brauders of Cork Corporation, the owners of the site at Tinkers Cross. He reported that the way was now clear to open formal negotiatons with the Corporation and “commence your dealings on what the Board hopes will be the site of the new school.”

18 October, Eamon Cusack, Executive Officer in Dept of Education, sent Mary Horan a memo recommending the purchase of the site. He filled out the requisite site acquisition request to be forwarded to the Property Management Section of the Office of Public Works, which deals with the purchasing of site etc.

Also on 18 October Mary Horan wrote to George Ross, saying that she had sent the documentation to the Office of Public Works and that he should expect a visit from Martin O Gorman of the OPW within the next few weeks.

The Dept of Education had been looking for a site for St Paul’s Special School run by the COPE foundation. As the site at Tinkers Cross was about 5 acres, it was decided to ask the OPW to see if St Paul’s School and the Gaelscoil could be co-located there.

On 10 December 2001, Joe Gavin, the City Manager, brought a proposal before the Council. His discussions with the Dept of Education had led to a proposal that the Gaelscoil and the school for COPE foundation would be built at Tinkers Cross, which he was now calling Mayfield Cross. In his report to the City Council, he sought the approval for the sale of the land for the schools.

The minutes of the meeting of the Corporation record that, “An Comhairle approved the report of the City Manager & Town Clerk dated 6th November 2001 in relation to lands at Mayfield Cross, Old Youghal Road."

With the agreement and approval of the Board of Management of the Gaelscoil, the Dept of Education and the City Council, the process of building the Gaelscoil on the site at Mayfield/Tinkers Cross could commence immediately. If it had proceeded, the Gaelscoil would have been built and in use years ago.

In June 2002, the process took a strange turn. A note from the Board of Management of the Gaelscoil (dated 2 Meitheamh 2002) to “Neighbours” has the following:
“As you are aware we are trying to get a site for a permanent school. The Office of Public Works are engaged in discussions with the Department of Education and Cork Corporation concerning a possible site in the vicinity of Tinkers’ Cross Mayfield.
At the same time Brian Dillons would like us to remain on and it would equally be our preferred option if we could do so.”

I would, respectfully, suggest you ask the hard questions of the Board of Management of the Gaelscoil:

1. Why would the Gaelscoil turn its back on a site which they found “most suitable for the Gaelscoil’s long term accommodation requirements”?
2. Who made the decision to stop the process already underway to have the school built at the site at Tinkers Cross?
3. Why was the process stopped?
4. What (or who) was the connection with Brian Dillons Club which led to the flow of money into the coffers of Brian Dillons club being more important than the education of the children in the Gaelscoil in proper and suitable accommodation?
5. Why would some (or all) of the Board of Management of the Gaelscoil choose to continue to educate the school children in prefabs rather than a new building on the site at Tinkers Cross?

I can't answer those questions. I would invite someone with more knowledge from the BOM side to help out here.

thegoalkeeper

Great discussion between yourself and Florodon2. Looks to me that the BOM have some serious questions to answer.

Why are the parents of the children who attend the school not asking these questions?

Are they even aware that the school had agreed to move to Tinkers' Cross?

professore

thegoalkeeper wrote: »

Great discussion between yourself and Florodon2. Looks to me that the BOM have some serious questions to answer.

Why are the parents of the children who attend the school not asking these questions?

Because we don't really care where the school is - as long as it gets built somewhere. If you remember what it was like trying to raise a young family, paying big mortgages and lots of taxes and keep food on the table you should realise that you don't have time to spend on issues like this. The only reason I can sometimes do it now is that the economy is so bad at the moment I have times when I'm not busy, which hasn't happened as long as I have been working. It is a luxury to have time to pursue things like this during the day that most parents don't have.

Are they even aware that the school had agreed to move to Tinkers' Cross?

I have always been told that all other sites investigated were rejected by the Dept Of Education for various reasons. There was no details given. I attended a meeting in the school about 2 years ago where there was a representative of the residents committee in the vicinity of the Tinkers Cross site who was preparing to strenously object to the school being built there citing traffic and other reasons. However she was told the site was no longer under consideration - I don't know the reasons as they were not given and I was not particularly interested. That's the only time outside this forum I have even heard the Tinkers Cross site mentioned.

Since the last date is 2002, this is 9 years ago. Only parents with more than one child in the school would still have children in the school now.

I don't agree with your automatic conclusion that the BOM have serious questions to answer. I still maintain that they could have whatever opinions they like but it is in the end not their decision. It has also not been shown that they rejected the Tinkers Cross site - they appear to have expressed a preference for the Tank Field site, but maybe this was because they were told they had no hope of getting the Tinkers Cross site?

Is there any particular reason why you, florodon and others are so keen on blaming the BOM?

professore

I said I couldn't answer the questions below but I will give my opinions.

Why would the Gaelscoil turn its back on a site which they found “most suitable for the Gaelscoil’s long term accommodation requirements”?

Because they were told by some planning body that it was out of the question?

Who made the decision to stop the process already underway to have the school built at the site at Tinkers Cross?

Why was the process stopped?

These are good questions - there should be some official documents to answer these but you say they have been mislaid.

What (or who) was the connection with Brian Dillons Club which led to the flow of money into the coffers of Brian Dillons club being more important than the education of the children in the Gaelscoil in proper and suitable accommodation?

This is a loaded question - similar to my poll that you never fail to criticise. You imply that someone made a conscious decision to ignore the children in favour of financial benefit. There is no evidence of this - absence of evidence is not evidence of absence of course, but it's not proof either. I would rephrase it to ask what was the involvement of Brian Dillons club.

Why would some (or all) of the Board of Management of the Gaelscoil choose to continue to educate the school children in prefabs rather than a new building on the site at Tinkers Cross?

No evidence that they did - from any information I have the Tinkers Cross site was off the table. Why that was I still do not know.

thegoalkeeper

This link will take you to a letter obtained under the freedom of information act. The letter is from the Chairman of the BOM of the Gaelscoil. Have a read please http://www.tankfield.ie/html/Page%202.pdf

thegoalkeeper

I think you might find this link interesting http://www.tankfield.ie/html/Page%202.pdf

professore

thegoalkeeper wrote: »

I think you might find this link interesting http://www.tankfield.ie/html/Page%202.pdf

Thanks for the link. It indicates that the Dept of Education were going to look into the site at Tinkers Cross and the BOM were happy with this at the time - which we have established from other documents posted here.

The interesting thing is any documents after this time that indicate why this site was ultimately rejected and by whom. Surely these must exist?

florodon2

florodon2 wrote: »

1. Why would the Gaelscoil turn its back on a site which they found “most suitable for the Gaelscoil’s long term accommodation requirements”?
2. Who made the decision to stop the process already underway to have the school built at the site at Tinkers Cross?
3. Why was the process stopped?
4. What (or who) was the connection with Brian Dillons Club which led to the flow of money into the coffers of Brian Dillons club being more important than the education of the children in the Gaelscoil in proper and suitable accommodation?
5. Why would some (or all) of the Board of Management of the Gaelscoil choose to continue to educate the school children in prefabs rather than a new building on the site at Tinkers Cross?

Still no answers to these questions? Kicking for touch (there won't be much 'touchline' when the Gaelscoil grabs most of the Brian Dillons pitches)? Hoping that the City Councillors or/and An Bord Planala will ensure that the questions will not have to be answered?

We might be sick to death of the Tribunals and Official Enguiries, but we need the truth now. Nothing must be done until an Official Sworn Enquiry is held.

For years the locals have been blamed for holding up and blocking the building of a new Gaelscoil. But the documents show that it was the Board of Management of the school, in a pact with Brian Dillons club, who deferred the building of the school in order swell the finances of Brian Dillons Club and eventually to have a total takeover of the Tank Field between them.

If the children of the Gaelscoil have had to endure less than comfortable conditions, the blame must be laid solely at the feet of the Board of Management. Those parents who chose and still choose to send their children to the school must live with their own choices. Blaming the residents and all others who wish to Keep the Tank Field Public and Free, is only deflecting the need to have the Board of Management answer the hard questions.

professore

florodon2 wrote: »

Still no answers to these questions?

Answers to some already, others no answers.

Kicking for touch (there won't be much 'touchline' when the Gaelscoil grabs most of the Brian Dillons pitches)?

Completely wrong - as you well know, not one millimetre of pitch will be lost. A fine example of the misinformation and downright lies of the residents committee which initially prompted me to start this thread in the first place.

Hoping that the City Councillors or/and An Bord Planala will ensure that the questions will not have to be answered?

We might be sick to death of the Tribunals and Official Enguiries, but we need the truth now. Nothing must be done until an Official Sworn Enquiry is held.

This is complete pie in the sky and another delaying tactic. Nothing must be done = you getting your way. This is another "throw your toys out of the pram" reaction. As for truth, you don't know the meaning of the word as your post demonstrates.

For years the locals have been blamed for holding up and blocking the building of a new Gaelscoil.

That's because it's the truth.

They are responsible for holding up the school for years, since 2001, TEN YEARS AGO when the decision was made to proceed with the Tank Field site. This is a fact, with a substantial paper trail to prove it.

This "Official Sworn Enquiry" tack is another attempt at this since all other avenues have been exhausted. The fact that you have been able to hold this project up for ten years shows that there is no secret deals at play as if there were the school would have been built long ago and brown envelopes distributed. If anything there must have been secret deals with the residents committee and the City Council to delay this project for so long.

But the documents show that it was the Board of Management of the school, in a pact with Brian Dillons club, who deferred the building of the school in order swell the finances of Brian Dillons Club and eventually to have a total takeover of the Tank Field between them.

This is absolute nonsense. The documents show no such thing and you know it.

If the children of the Gaelscoil have had to endure less than comfortable conditions, the blame must be laid solely at the feet of the Board of Management. Those parents who chose and still choose to send their children to the school must live with their own choices. Blaming the residents and all others who wish to Keep the Tank Field Public and Free, is only deflecting the need to have the Board of Management answer the hard questions.

When were the Board of Management of the Gaelscoil (from TEN YEARS AGO) elected sole dictators of Ireland? I missed that one on the newspapers.

The residents committee as the crowning glory of their lives have to live with the shame of keeping the children of a school in prehistoric conditions for ten years IN ORDER TO SAVE ONE SMALL CORNER OF AN 11 ACRE FIELD when any reasonable parent would expect that the planning system in this joke of a country would have decided this issue one way or the other a long time ago, especially since everything has been in place for years now to build it.

You really couldn't make this stuff up. For centuries the Irish catholics had to teach their children in hedge schools because another group of people wouldn't allow them to build schools - now it's our own people who are standing in the way. Amazing. If you saw this on an episode of Father Ted you would say even Dermot Morgan has gone too far this time.

You have to realise that you are directly affecting the everyday lives of at least 750 people at a very conservative estimate - 250 pupils + 500 parents - to "save" a small corner of a field? And you save it from what? A school to educate children !!!!

ENOUGH IS ENOUGH - BUILD THE SCHOOL NOW

florodon2

From the documents obtained under the Freedom of Information act:-

Fact: The Board of Management of the Gaelscoil “earmarked the site at Tinker’s Cross as most suitable for the Gaelscoil’s long term accommodation requirements…”

Fact: The Dept of Education stated that the site is “very suitable for our needs.”

Fact: The Dept of Education, via the Office of Public Works, opened negotiations with Cork Corporation with a view to purchasing the site.

Fact: Cork Corporation had no objection to the disposal of the site, and An Chomhairle approved the report of the City Manager in relation to this.

Everything was in order in 2001. All parties were singing from the same hymn sheet. Then ….nothing until the Gaelscoil sought to build on the Tank Field, telling the local residents that this was a fait accompli.

1. Who made the decision to refuse the Tinker’s Cross site?
2. Why was the decision made?
3. Why was it more important to keep children in prefabs rather than to proceed with the building of a new school at Tinker’s Cross?

The Gaelscoil could have been built years ago on the site at Tinker’s Cross, the site which the Board of Management had stated was ‘most suitable’, but for some reason(s) the Board of Management decided that it would only accept the Tank Field as the location for the school.

The facts speak for themselves.

professore

florodon2 wrote: »

From the documents obtained under the Freedom of Information act:-

Fact: The Board of Management of the Gaelscoil “earmarked the site at Tinker’s Cross as most suitable for the Gaelscoil’s long term accommodation requirements…”

Fact: The Dept of Education stated that the site is “very suitable for our needs.”

Fact: The Dept of Education, via the Office of Public Works, opened negotiations with Cork Corporation with a view to purchasing the site.

Fact: Cork Corporation had no objection to the disposal of the site, and An Chomhairle approved the report of the City Manager in relation to this.

Everything was in order in 2001. All parties were singing from the same hymn sheet. Then ….nothing until the Gaelscoil sought to build on the Tank Field, telling the local residents that this was a fait accompli.

1. Who made the decision to refuse the Tinker’s Cross site?
2. Why was the decision made?
   
3. Why was it more important to keep children in prefabs rather than to proceed with the building of a new school at Tinker’s Cross?

This last one is irrelevant as it is an emotional line to tug at heart strings.

As I said I would be vaguely interested from a purely academic standpoint to know the answers. However it's all ancient history now.

I see no mention above of An Bord Pleanala who are very relevant before anything can be built. Also the documents above do not constitute permission to build the school. As you well know official bodies might declare themselves "happy" but this means absolutely nothing.

Now your massive leap to make 2 + 2 = 200 .....

The Gaelscoil could have been built years ago on the site at Tinker’s Cross, the site which the Board of Management had stated was ‘most suitable’, but for some reason(s) the Board of Management decided that it would only accept the Tank Field as the location for the school.

I'm sorry but this is not a fact. There is no evidence whatsoever for this.

The facts speak for themselves.

Indeed they do ....

professore

gbee wrote: »

Essentially, the GAELSCOILEANNA are the new support structure as Sinn Feinn are to the IRA.

And their student number also swelled as Bertie Ahern's Multicultural Ireland vision was FORCED upon us.

GAELSCOILEANNA are the new militancy, make no mistake here, in the Bible Belt in the USA they'd be considered a Waco incident waiting to happen, non politically correct, militant, raciest, sectarian isolationists.

Not that I'd be totally opposed to all that in philosophy, but it is contrary to Bertie's views.

We love Irish or we don't ~ I hate it and think it should be banned in fact and the all Irish schools subject to investigation as to student selection, but strangely I too tend to support their basic views, however, IMO they are in danger of replacing the priests with druids when in fact we want neither.

Thanks gbee, that was the best laugh I had in ages. There's a whole section on "Conspiracy Theories" that might be more appropriate.

florodon2

Keep the Tank Field open, free, green, unspoilt.

Interesting article
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2011/jun/02/uk-green-spaces-value

A quote from the article:

"The health benefits of living with a view of a green space are worth up to £300 per person per year, in part by providing areas for people to exercise but also because simply looking at nature lifts people's spirits, according to scientific research. Living close to rivers, coasts and wetlands is also a boon – the benefits to residents are about £1.3bn a year.
But these benefits are rarely taken into account when decisions are made about granting permission for building and other development, and in selling off green spaces such as playing fields."


Exactly why it is necessary to Keep the Tank Field Free, Open and Green.

professore

florodon2 wrote: »

Keep the Tank Field open, free, green, unspoilt.

Interesting article
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2011/jun/02/uk-green-spaces-value

A quote from the article:

"The health benefits of living with a view of a green space are worth up to £300 per person per year, in part by providing areas for people to exercise but also because simply looking at nature lifts people's spirits, according to scientific research. Living close to rivers, coasts and wetlands is also a boon – the benefits to residents are about £1.3bn a year.
But these benefits are rarely taken into account when decisions are made about granting permission for building and other development, and in selling off green spaces such as playing fields."


Exactly why it is necessary to Keep the Tank Field Free, Open and Green.

How is this relevant? I can produce hundreds of articles about the economic value of schools. Most of the green area will be retained in any event.

florodon2

professore wrote: »

How is this relevant? I can produce hundreds of articles about the economic value of schools. Most of the green area will be retained in any event.

Links to three or four of the relevant articles?

professore

florodon2 wrote: »

Links to three or four of the relevant articles?

Didn't think there was any dispute about education improving a country's economic prospects, but OK ...

http://www.examiner.ie/ireland/prefabs-bill-almost-halves-as-schools-opt-to-build-permanent-classrooms-110830.html

http://www.edu.gov.on.ca/eng/document/reports/learn/goodplaces.pdf

http://edpro.stanford.edu/Hanushek/admin/pages/files/uploads/Economic%20Value.cleveland%20fed.pdf

Also Google has hundreds more.

thegoalkeeper

The balance of the Green Area will go to Brian Dillons. Examine the planning documents sir.

professore

thegoalkeeper wrote: »

The balance of the Green Area will go to Brian Dillons. Examine the planning documents sir.

They currently use it as sports grounds and will continue to do so? It's not as if they are going to put housing on it or convert it to some other use?

54kroc

Would it be possible to join Gaelscoil An Ghoirt Álainn and Gaelscoil Uí Drisceoil together down at the Ibis site?

professore

cork45 wrote: »

Would it be possible to join Gaelscoil An Ghoirt Álainn and Gaelscoil Uí Drisceoil together down at the Ibis site?

Problem there is that even assuming that planning could be gotten for what would be a much bigger school the planning would have to start again from zero - not sure Gaelscoil Uí Drisceoil or indeed ourselves would appreciate that.

Also Gaelscoil Uí Drisceoil is not an Educate Together school - so schools would have to retain their separate identities. As long as they did I would not have an issue with it personally, except it is quite a bit further away from where I live.