Opinions re. BL qualification and knockon effects

Rhonda9000

I would like to hear thoughts on whether doing the Bar pigeon holes you into the profession completely and e.g. what if you fancy a change of direction later, discover its not your thing, find it too hard going etc.

Is it possible to go straight from being called to the Bar to an in-house role or a [legal] role in a State body? Is this feasible? What about pursuing a career elsewhere in Europe?

While I feel I am best suited to the Bar it may not be possible with financial constraints, not living in Dublin etc. It's coming to crunch time and I have to decide weather to sit the FE1's or the Inns entrance exams..

Any insights or experience?

Many thanks,
Rhonda

mountainyman

Almost every in house role specifies Barrister or solicitor. The civil service prefers barristers (even though it is harder to become a solicitor)

MM

EdgarAllenPoo

You could always try and get a job as a lecturer.

This is just a personal opinion but I don't know why anyone would become a barrister rather than a solicitor, unless you can afford to live on nothing for an extended period of time the solicitor route would provide much better financial security.

Rhonda9000

Yes MM..

Q: do employers typically want a Barrister / Solicitor that has practiced for a certain length of time or are there people out there who have gone straight to industry or civil service with BL after their name? What I'm trying to say is - do you have to endure the torture of practice for the first few years before you would be taken on in house or in the civil service?

Also, do you think generally the demand trend is more in favour of perspective barristers or solicitors?

Do you know the general demand levels for in house legal personnel generally?

Rhonda9000

GDM wrote:

You could always try and get a job as a lecturer.

This is just a personal opinion but I don't know why anyone would become a barrister rather than a solicitor, unless you can afford to live on nothing for an extended period of time the solicitor route would provide much better financial security.

Definitely agree with you re. finance, and this is what may stop me from doing it. The reason I want to do it over a solicitor is that I get a thrill out of advocacy generally - it is a better fit with my natural abilities in this regard. Also, I like the prospect of self employment and the fact that the courts go on holidays for 2 months in the summer and the solicitors are stuck in offices :-)

johnnyskeleton

GDM wrote:

You could always try and get a job as a lecturer.

Colleges, IMO, want to employ people who are dedicated academics and although some colleges like to have lecturers who practice what they preach, they also want them to have an academic aura about them.

GDM wrote:

This is just a personal opinion but I don't know why anyone would become a barrister rather than a solicitor, unless you can afford to live on nothing for an extended period of time the solicitor route would provide much better financial security.

The girls? The wig? The machismo? Seeing a former minister for justice's smiling face every morning as you stroll into work? As for the finances, it could work out the same as becoming a solicitor in the sense of spending a few years studying for the FE1s and searching for a training contract, then doing an apprenticeship for another fair whack being paid a pittance.

Rhonda9000 wrote:

do you have to endure the torture of practice for the first few years before you would be taken on in house or in the civil service?

If it is your attitude that a few years of practice is something to be endured then I would suggest that neither profession would suit you. If you have a law degree, have you considered legal research? If you don't have a law degree but want to work in the area, why not become a legal executive?

I don't think good in-house roles start cropping up until after a few years practice e.g. DPP. But you can always get another job - they don't brand you for life anymore (since the introduction of the Health & Safety at work legislation).

Many people just get the qualification and never practice. If you just want the degree, try working for a company that might sponsor you to do it (e.g. civil service, land registry etc).

Rhonda9000

Johnny-

I have almost finished my law degree and am weighing my options. I don't view practice itself as torture - but the financial upheaval involved. I feel best suited to the Bar but it may not be feasible deviling and getting established in Dublin as I am not from there and sadly I don't have the means currently.

The heart of my enquiry is finding out if going from fresh graduate to in house legal role is a possible career path.

Also, does anyone know anything about this difference between the BCL and LLB and practicing in Europe??

Tom Young

Hey Rhonda,

There are plenty of in-house roles for Law Grads. Some which are more highly paid (given time) than practice. US firms will only hire law grads in certain areas: Public Policy, Regulation, Compliance etc. Think Drug firms, Avation, Telecoms etc. Any regulated space.

Lobbying is also highly interesting, though generally lobbyists are or have to have a high degree of cross training. Example: Telecom/Internet lobbyists might have had to have had exposure to Technology, Commerce or indeed Policy Formulation. Advocacy is a highly relevant aspect of this type of role.

So to respond to the enquiry, you shouldn't discount the qualification. You have plenty of options with the law, but then again I tend to agree with JS in relation to passion etc.

Perhaps should your circumstances change the qualification is a nice to have.

Rhonda9000

Hi Tom

Thanks for the insight; very good suggestions. To reiterate, I would do the Bar without a second thought were it not for the few unaffordable years following graduation. I could manage getting through the course at the Inns financially (just about) but the downtime after that and deviling etc. until earning properly is not viable for me.

Tom Young

Well I think many are in that position. Things have changed in recent years. There are a few more options for BL's and devils that wouldn't compromise their professions. The rules are up on the law library website.

If you want my tuppence worth: Go do it, try it, if you don't you might regret it. You may hate it, you may love it. JS once posted that as a BL you touch many aspects of peoples lives and experience a rollercoaster of emotions on a daily basis which is something you don't get sitting in an office drafting all day long. I accept a BL drafts and grafts as well.

I'd hate to think that you wanted to do something and weren't willing to 'suck it and see'!

[Where's the nearest court to you? Must be one within a reasonable distance]

Je ne regret rien!

2rs

Reiterating what Tom has said, if you are thinking of doing this go for it now.

I am in the same boat as you now Rhonda, about to sit the entrance exams next month with just enough financial clout to get me through the next year. The devilling is not an option this time next year for me so will be hoping to fill and in-house role somewhere.

If you have any experience in other industry that is where you should target. Myself, I am pretty sure I will be getting back into telecoms this time next year. The devilling can always be done further down the road again, so you can work towards that if it is your preference.

There are also regular job advertisements for "newly qualified" barristers and solicitors on the web. I would have no worries if I was you.

johnnyskeleton

Rhonda9000 wrote:

The heart of my enquiry is finding out if going from fresh graduate to in house legal role is a possible career path.

Perhaps a clarification of what you mean by "in house legal role" is required. As in what exactly do you want?

For example, if you want decent money and a chace to brush up on the law, then legal research (for the Law Reform Commission, the Attorney General, DPP, Legal Aid Board, a busy senior counsel, perhaps colleges and solicitor's firms) is a good idea.

If you want to get used to the more rough and tumble aspects, legal executives often meet clients and get to make sure barristers are in the right court at the right time (and facing the right way too).

There are quirky jobs such as becoming a judge's tipstaff, court registrar or working in the law library (as a librarian, security staff, cleaning) which could be great for networking etc.

You could also, as Tom points out, work for a firm such as a drug firm or bank and wiggle your way into their legal department.

Two caveats though: 1) a BL is a good degree, but I don't think it is enough for a company to put you to work entirely on your own dealing with their legal issues - they would want someone with a bit of experience. 2) if you don't want to work in a solicitor's firm, I think you can still become a solicitor and do your apprenticeship with, for example, a big telecommunications firm's in house solicitors.

mountainyman

You can do as JS says but you need a secondment to an ordinary solicitors firm for a time to show you can do probate and conveyancing. Which are obligatory for solicitors.

Rhonda 2RS a BL is just a degree I cannot recall ever seeing a legal in house role that wasn't looking for at least 2 years PQE.

If you can't afford the initial financial sacrifice you can't be a barrister. That said they aren't all rich kids. Alot of young barristers just accept that they'll be poor until they're rich.

That's the system.

MM

johnnyskeleton

mountainyman wrote:

If you can't afford the initial financial sacrifice you can't be a barrister. That said they aren't all rich kids. Alot of young barristers just accept that they'll be poor until they're rich.

I don't think that there are necessarily more people young barristers with family wealth than there are solicitors with it. If you really want to be a barrister you shouldn't let a few years of low earnings stop you - think of it as similar to becoming a doctor - instead of a 6 year degree you have a 3 year degree, a 1 year post grad, and 2 years poorly paid. If you are prepared to work 2 jobs at the same time you can muddle through. You can always do what Americans do which is take out massive student loans (c. 100k) and just pay it off in 5/10 years time. I don't think money should be the determining factor - I'm sure a lot of people become barristers because they simply wouldn't do anything else.

Rhonda9000

Thanks for all the great replies guys. I know it is difficult for the majority re. financial hardship and while some may be able to stick "poor pay" out for a couple of years, it's not really an option for me. Not because I need tonnes of cash coming in to live princess-style but I have a family to support and this is a career change, not my first crack of the whip.

I think I will go for the BL and hopefully I can track something down like you suggest. The resounding opinion is that it is possible to pursue legal roles in house legal roles in a number of areas with a BL (not just the preserve of solicitors). Perhaps I may then be able to devil etc. if I decide I would like that better. Pardon my ignorance but isn't a year of devilling required before you are awarded with the BL? In that case the BL requires 2 years total to get done..

Freedom to decide can be a curse!
Thanks again guys..
R

skyhighflyer

AFAIK the BL degree is awarded by King's Inns after your year of study. You're then entitled to call yourself a barrister and are qualified as such. The one or two year devilling is a practice requirement.

Rhonda9000

Thanks for clearing this one up. I thought you would need the year of deviling before you were called to the Bar.. Haven't started looking at the nitty gritty until now!