LOVE TARA march, Saturday 21 July@1pm

Riamfada

there are alot of variables. What you can dig as stated in your licence, the ammount of time and money available to open trenches. Geophysics of what is the most "active" area of the site. Testpits are also used.

If it turns out to be really interesting and warrents more funding than the excavation may be extended and the enitre site excavated. (ie fully recorded, photographed and drawn, then removed)

G

eoin5

emaherx wrote:

I was on the Hill of Tara at the weekend and no part of the new motorway is visable from the Hill, I walked to every corner of the site and I couldn't see it, I could however see the traffic passing on the current N3.

Good, I'm happy to hear that. It seems like the motorway wont impact the main site much atall, I feel a bit stupid now

emaherx

eoin5 wrote:

Good, I'm happy to hear that. It seems like the motorway wont impact the main site much atall, I feel a bit stupid now

Don't feel stupid, the save Tara brigade have hugely over exadurated whats hapenning.
Some of these people put up a very convincing story. If Tara was actually under threat I would go there and protest myself.

And as for Lismullen I heard on the radio one of the archeologists been interviewed and she said that there was nothing at the site which could be preserved. The only thing that they could do was take samples and and look at the chemicaly under a microscope. She said only forensic archeology could be carried out as there is nothing there except for dark patches in the soil. And they actually called it a National Monument :rolleyes:

Riamfada

indeed

RTE went out and showed whats left. A number of 15cm darker patches in the spoil.

lostexpectation

Grimes wrote:

there are alot of variables. What you can dig as stated in your licence, the ammount of time and money available to open trenches. Geophysics of what is the most "active" area of the site. Testpits are also used.

If it turns out to be really interesting and warrents more funding than the excavation may be extended and the enitre site excavated. (ie fully recorded, photographed and drawn, then removed)

G

right but would they ever be case where you wouldn't excavate all of something even if you had the money/time

lostexpectation

emaherx wrote:

Don't feel stupid, the save Tara brigade have hugely over exadurated whats hapenning.
Some of these people put up a very convincing story. If Tara was actually under threat I would go there and protest myself.

And as for Lismullen I heard on the radio one of the archeologists been interviewed and she said that there was nothing at the site which could be preserved. The only thing that they could do was take samples and and look at the chemicaly under a microscope. She said only forensic archeology could be carried out as there is nothing there except for dark patches in the soil. And they actually called it a National Monument :rolleyes:

but you see thats if your talking about the tara hill or the tara area complex
and the guy who did studies on tara conor newman thinks its a complex, that means lismullin counts, and (the) tara (complex) is being threatened.

Riamfada

lostexpectation wrote:

but you see thats if your talking about the tara hill or the tara area complex
and the guy who did studies on tara conor newman thinks its a complex, that means lismullin counts, and (the) tara (complex) is being threatened.

how far does that complex extend, 1km?2km?5km? do we lock down all construction in the Boyne Valley?

Lismullen may be part of Tara but there is nothing there to save but microscopic remains.

lostexpectation

Grimes wrote:

how far does that complex extend, 1km?2km?5km? do we lock down all construction in the Boyne Valley?

Lismullen may be part of Tara but there is nothing there to save but microscopic remains.

again it doesn't matter whether theres still anything there if it was a functioning part of the tara complex

what am trying to get at, trying to find out from you is if, the NRA stripped the site and then declared it national monument or vice versa?

I don't know the area you're the archaeologist you tell me... click on my blog link below for my amateur guess. (and I pose the same question here http://dublinstreams.blogspot.com/2007/08/could-someone-define-tara-hill.html)

see this map of Bru Na Boinne (large file)
http://www.meath.ie/LocalAuthorities/Publications/PlanningandDevelopmentPublications/CountyMeathPlanningPublications/CountyMeathDevelopmentPlan2007-2013-Adopted/File,6798,en.jpg

for an example of core zone and (for what I think is) development buffer zone...

do you approve of the governments delay in submitting the documents to making Tara a UNESCO world heritage site?

ps I am surprised at how little archaeology was has been done on the Tara Skryne Valley, the discovery programme wasn't done till the 1990's

lostexpectation

Grimes wrote:

Eoin, the site itself, really isnt that mythical. Its all a tourist construction, however it is one of the four important "royal" sites. If the motorway was going close to the site id agree but its actually going further away than the present road

it annoys me that ministers/nra keep on saying but it'll be further away then the present road its like they are suggesting the old road will be removed. No now there'll be two roads.

ODS

lostexpectation wrote:

it annoys me that ministers/nra keep on saying but it'll be further away then the present road its like they are suggesting the old road will be removed. No now there'll be two roads.

Agreed; its also devious that they duck the issue that there is a substantially increased negative impact by a heavily-engineered motorway which cuts and embanks thru the landscape, as opposed to the existing 2-lane road which rolls along with the topography.

Grimes, is your snout so in the trough that you are unable to distingush that the stake holes at Lismullen are only a feature of the larger ceremonial amphitheatre? Such a view is tantamount to looking at a doorway on a towerhouse, and saying "ah sure, it's only a doorway..." :rolleyes:

Finally re your point "do we lock down all construction in the Boyne Valley?", its possibly escaped your attention that within the last few months an application has been lodged to build a hotel right in the middle of the battlefield site (on the williamite lines). Funny that I didn't see an objection lodged by yourself, but sure then maybe you would justify that such a project would give a "great opportunity to learn about the past" all the while the actual remains would be destroyed by what at best can only be described as "shotgun archaeology"...

*kicks over trough on way out the door*

emaherx

lostexpectation wrote:

but you see thats if your talking about the tara hill or the tara area complex
and the guy who did studies on tara conor newman thinks its a complex, that means lismullin counts, and (the) tara (complex) is being threatened.

Sure thats a load of crap.

We should just stop building everything anywhere.

How about we move the motorway closer to Trim and destroy the medevil complex there or perhaps closer to Slane and destroy the stone age complex there.

Take any route you want its going to effect some "complex".

There are mounds for 30k in every direction around Tara where dose this "complex" end.

For every structure ever built in the country there was more than likely another one close by, there called neighbours. Why only next door to my house is another one (but its not part of my complex )

Riamfada

lostexpectation wrote:

ps I am surprised at how little archaeology was has been done on the Tara Skryne Valley, the discovery programme wasn't done till the 1990's

thats because the majority of money provided wich enables archaeologists to excavate comes from the NRA. Without it there would be little to no excavations save that from academics.

With regards the above battlefield planning application. Im sure, if the site is classed as a heritage site, they certainly wont be building on it.

Lismullen is a single phase iron age ritual site. The remains of which will disapate unexcavated if the protesters get their way. Should the road be built we will have a comprehensive database of sites preserved by record. Its relevance to the Tara complex will not be forgotten nor dismissed.

Using the tower house analogy, there is certainly less then a door remaining at Lismullen. If the tower house remained only by a different colour soil fill indicating the presence of a towerhouse i certainly wouldnt recommend the rerouting of a 350 million euro motorway to protect whats naturally erroding.

To state again, the site will last 5 years max. Motorway or no. Then there will be nothing left and certainly no heritage to appreciate.

Thanks for the pig implications. Should you have any relevant points Id love to hear them.

Hugs and Kisses
G

lostexpectation

emaherx wrote:

Sure thats a load of crap.

wow

its not read about the tara landscape

Report on the M3 motorway impact on the Tara landscape. by Edel Bhreathnach, Conor Newman, Joseph Fenwick.
http://www.nuigalway.ie/arc/Tara_Skryne_document.html


http://tarawatch.org/?p=470 On the Significance of Lismullin - by Dr. Ronald Hicks

http://tarawatch.org/?page_id=471 Archaeological Method and Theory and the M3
It seems to me that certain issues important for understanding the opposition archaeologists and other scholars have displayed toward the M3 highway project have not really been clearly explained in the debate so far. From what I have read in the newspapers, it is apparent that the public, and perhaps even those in the government, have a rather limited and out-of-date conception of just what archaeology is all about. This is probably the fault of archaeologists, for we do tend to be rather too involved in talking to each other rather than communicating as we should with the public, who in the end provide most of the support for our work.

Consequently, I will try here to clarify 1) the objectives of archaeology, 2) the reason for our concern with “landscape” rather than just sites, and 3) what is today considered good archaeological practice.

all am getting from grimes is "the NRA will pay my mortgage"

Nevyn

The hendge at lismullen is basically differnt coloured spots of earth where a wooden post decomposed. These spots show where the posts once were but really they are worth recording but preserving (how it could be preseved tbh is beyond me ).

There was a burial site uncovered that is certainly important considering what was in it but it was dug up and recorded adn in currently being researched which is a good thing.

I certainly have no time for Tarawatch who have not as of yet looked to see what plans and planning permission the OPW have for Tara it's self and how thier gatherings are damaging the earthworks and stregthening the OPW's case to have the site fenced off like they did newgrange.

Marksie

Thaedydal wrote:

The hendge at lismullen is basically differnt coloured spots of earth where a wooden post decomposed. These spots show where the posts once were but really they are worth recording but preserving (how it could be preseved tbh is beyond me ).

Just down from stonehenge is a small site, woodhenge. Where the post holes were they replaced them with small concrete markers and a plaque with the description of what the site looked like.

emaherx

Marksie wrote:

Just down from stonehenge is a small site, woodhenge. Where the post holes were they replaced them with small concrete markers and a plaque with the description of what the site looked like.

So lets preserve the wood henge by placing concrete posts in the locations
What purpose would that serve?


building a model in a museum would give people a better idea of what was there.

lostexpectation

Thaedydal wrote:

The hendge at lismullen is basically differnt coloured spots of earth where a wooden post decomposed. These spots show where the posts once were but really they are worth recording but preserving (how it could be preseved tbh is beyond me ).

There was a burial site uncovered that is certainly important considering what was in it but it was dug up and recorded adn in currently being researched which is a good thing.

I certainly have no time for Tarawatch who have not as of yet looked to see what plans and planning permission the OPW have for Tara it's self and how thier gatherings are damaging the earthworks and stregthening the OPW's case to have the site fenced off like they did newgrange.

what are the opws plan for Tara? then ?

Riamfada

Well the mound of the hostages has been fenced off to stop people climbing on it. Tara is still sheep grazing land. I assume that cant be good

emaherx

Grimes wrote:

Well the mound of the hostages has been fenced off to stop people climbing on it. Tara is still sheep grazing land. I assume that cant be good

Yes save Tara from the motorway:rolleyes:

When there are tracks worn into it from passing Tourists. (Not sugessting people shouldn't be aloud to see Tara, but the mound realy does have a deep path worn into it)
And also when I was up ther a few weeks ago, Silage had been cut off the site. and with the soft ground conditions this year and the tractor had mowed right up to and a little beyond the edge of the mounds.

And while all this goes on the Tarawatch are looking a few Km in the wrong direction. ( At a circle of dark spots, that will be washed away by the rain )

And would somebody please remove those Damn Hippes from camping on the site, Their hardly showing Tara any Respect.

Nevyn

lostexpectation wrote: »

what are the opws plan for Tara? then ?

They have planning permission already for a visitors centre and to fence and seal off the site, the fencing is in the tendering process at the moment and there will be a fee charged with guided tours and the number of visitors will be limited and approved access during approved hours only.

Meathlass

The funniest proposal I heard from Tarawatch or one of those affliated groups was that they wanted to make Tara and the whole Boyne Valley a National Park and tourist complex, stretching from Dunshaughlin to Drogheda to Navan. WTF!! What about all the people who live there?

Where do we say a complex ends? Sites and landscapes get used by different generations of peoples for different things. At the moment, every weekend there is very little protection for Tara itself, tourists and kids walk up and down all over the monument cutting deep groves into it. The idea that this should be a UNESCO site is laughable; it has the archaeology but none of the facilities; the appoach roads are too narrow for buses and tourist traffic, there isn't a proper carpark or toilets. It would be lovely if it was like Newgrange with the Interpretative centre setting everything including the wider landscape in its context. You could take a guided walking tour like at Newgrange with free time then to explore the site on your own and walk around. It's been awhile since I was there (about 6 months) but I know there are 2 monuments on the hilltop and the old Duchas explanation boards are on the wrong signposts, cue much confushion from tourists trying to follow site maps. I don't think the monuments should be fenced off as this detracts visually from the site (as does the encampment presently there) but some staff to tell people not to walk on the monuments would help. These things do change, when I was a child we would go to Newgrange every summer and climb up the bank of the passage tomb and jump off the top. Try doing that these days!

Meathlass

Thaedydal wrote: »

They have planning permission already for a visitors centre and to fence and seal off the site, the fencing is in the tendering process at the moment and there will be a fee charged with guided tours and the number of visitors will be limited and approved access during approved hours only.

While I agree with this plan I can guarantee there will be uproar in the local press as many people from Navan and surrounding areas go out to Tara for walks. They will object strongly to having to pay. The other popular walking area , Dalgan Park, is being curtailed already becuase of the M3

lostexpectation

Meathlass wrote: »

The funniest proposal I heard from Tarawatch or one of those affliated groups was that they wanted to make Tara and the whole Boyne Valley a National Park and tourist complex, stretching from Dunshaughlin to Drogheda to Navan. WTF!! What about all the people who live there?

Where do we say a complex ends? Sites and landscapes get used by different generations of peoples for different things. At the moment, every weekend there is very little protection for Tara itself, tourists and kids walk up and down all over the monument cutting deep groves into it. The idea that this should be a UNESCO site is laughable; it has the archaeology but none of the facilities; the appoach roads are too narrow for buses and tourist traffic, there isn't a proper carpark or toilets. It would be lovely if it was like Newgrange with the Interpretative centre setting everything including the wider landscape in its context. You could take a guided walking tour like at Newgrange with free time then to explore the site on your own and walk around. It's been awhile since I was there (about 6 months) but I know there are 2 monuments on the hilltop and the old Duchas explanation boards are on the wrong signposts, cue much confushion from tourists trying to follow site maps. I don't think the monuments should be fenced off as this detracts visually from the site (as does the encampment presently there) but some staff to tell people not to walk on the monuments would help. These things do change, when I was a child we would go to Newgrange every summer and climb up the bank of the passage tomb and jump off the top. Try doing that these days!

the idea that it should be unesco site is not laughable what it is the application is being blocked by the gov not submitting the information as there the only ones that can do, then you might talk about improving the facilies and access for reasonably sustainable number of visitors.


the idea of the national park by two independent people is not very detailed but there are plenty of examples of national parks or conservation areas that have people living in them, you would have different levels of conservation and development in the area. the people who live Georgian dublin cope.

Archeron

emaherx wrote: »

How about we move the motorway closer to Trim and destroy the medevil complex there or perhaps closer to Slane and destroy the stone age complex there.

Take any route you want its going to effect some "complex".

Good point. How many of these people were out protesting at the construction of the new Hotel thats a mere 10 feet away from the walls of Trim Castle? AFAIK (open to correction on this) that was actually against basic planning laws as well, but I didnt see anyone giving out about that.

I love Tara. I really love Tara, but I still cant wait for this motorway to be built so the county of Meath can show off its heritage to everyone who can then get there on safe, efficient modern roads.

lostexpectation

there were protest and the trim hotel and crossover between those protestors and the tara ones, even that frank connelly investigative body did a report on it.

well tere be driving over Tara rather seeing it.

Riamfada

lostexpectation wrote: »

well tere be driving over Tara rather seeing it.

not unless the road is 1km wide. Get your facts straight. 1000m away from the Hill Of Tara isnt over the Hill of Tara

lostexpectation

Grimes wrote: »

not unless the road is 1km wide. Get your facts straight. 1000m away from the Hill Of Tara isnt over the Hill of Tara

I love catching people out on that second time t this week a specifically said Tara not the hill of Tara.

Tara is an area in which there was a lot of ancient ceremonial activity, its pinnacle but not its entirity is popularly know as the Hill of Tara

you obviously havn't read the discovery programmes books on the survey of the
tara area.

I don't understand how you read 'Tara' as 'Hill of Tara'. one is one word another is 3 words.

Riamfada

Congradulations. So where does Tara stop? How far does the ceremonial landscape spread? The Boyne Valley? Or do you know the limits? Please enlighten me.

And things go "over" a hill , "through" an area. Had you used the right English perhaps I'd understand your point.

Anyway all this is a moot point seeing as its already gone. Nothing there left to save boyo. Its all where it should be, in a musem and an archaeologists office being studied.

Off Topic: Has anyone seen the video made by the protestors refering to the "Goddess of the Valley" and the facsist organisation "opus dei spreading the Pope's evil" ?

Archeron

Grimes wrote: »

Off Topic: Has anyone seen the video made by the protestors refering to the "Goddess of the Valley" and the facsist organisation "opus dei spreading the Pope's evil" ?

No, but it sounds really weird. Any link?

Riamfada

Tara Tara Tara

I only watched the first 5 minutes after the comments made about the church and Dick Chaney's stakehold in the tolls

And it also claims that "tara and the other monuments are a gateway to Atlantis"