exchange or send back

Flaccus

Ok, bad analogy.
I don't know what the *sigh* is about, but there is NO WAY a seller HAS to give you a replacment or refund after 30 days without first considering a repair. Same thing with a TV your bring back or any other electronic goods. They have to check if it's faulty, then repair it and only then offer a replacement or refund if they cannot repair it. This is after the 30 day period from when you bought it. I don't know what world you are living in, but I have yet to come accross a retailer that just goes, "yeah that stereo you bought 8 months ago has a faulty cd player, here have your money back mate". And nowhere in any law does it state you are entitled to an immediate refund or replacement. The manufacturer is always entitled to effect a repair first. Please show me where it says otherwise, as the 1 link you posted does not work, and I don't see what the sale of goods act has to do with anything unless you want to take them to court and proove it's not of merchantible quality or fit for the purposes for which it was intended, which it was until it broke. In which case the judge will ask anyway if you gave the manufacturer a chance to repair it in the first place. Enjoy getting laughed out of the shop and out of court if you think otherwise.

mr.noobie

you are never online anymore liamy how come

miju

Flaccus wrote:

Ok, bad analogy.
I don't know what the *sigh* is about, but there is NO WAY a seller HAS to give you a replacment or refund after 30 days without first considering a repair.

seller can offer to repair but you HAVE the right to refuse it.

Flaccus wrote:

I don't know what world you are living in, but I have yet to come accross a retailer that just goes, "yeah that stereo you bought 8 months ago has a faulty cd player, here have your money back mate".

Well I've come across about 50 mainly the ones who deal with Hotpoint , Indesit , Ariston and Cannon cookers , washing machines , dishwashers. I know because I was the one who had to process them when they came back when I used to work there.

Flaccus wrote:

And nowhere in any law does it state you are entitled to an immediate refund or replacement.

actually thats the very basis of the sale of goods act 1980. still reading through the act to find the exact section. but as read here or here you'll see that you DO have the right to refuse a repair.

Flaccus wrote:

don't see what the sale of goods act has to do with anything unless you want to take them to court and proove it's not of merchantible quality or fit for the purposes for which it was intended, which it was until it broke.

If an xbox doesnt last for more than 6 months then it is not of merchantable qaulity. It doesnt matter whatsoever that it was working for the first six months. It is expected that the xbox will perform its function for a reasonable amount of time using the price & other xboxs as a guide (this is what they do in the small claims court) therefore your consumer rights remain the same.

Flaccus wrote:

In which case the judge will ask anyway if you gave the manufacturer a chance to repair it in the first place. Enjoy getting laughed out of the shop and out of court if you think otherwise.

This actually shows your complete and utter lack of understanding about what you are talking about. Under LAW you have no contract with the manufacturer any warranty they offer is ON TOP of your statutory rights. The problem is the retailers and only the retailers until its over 1 year old (though I'm pretty sure theres an EU law that says two years for electronic items but I dont know much about that one)

Anyways, I'm getting terribly bored of this now. Is that humble pie tasty?

Flaccus

"This actually shows your complete and utter lack of understanding about what you are talking about"

bollox....I know what I am talking about. What I was getting at was giving the retailer/manufactuer i.e. whoever the hell you bought it from a chance to repair it and you know it. I do know the contract is with the seller not the manufacturer but the seller has the right to turn around and say they will get it repaired as it's after the 30 days since you bought it or whatever the policy is they operate. You obviously have the right to refuse the repair (I concede that and never actually argued otherwise) but that's the only point you seem to be making over and over again...refuse the repair. But what do you do then ? Stand there and quote the law that you have the right to refuse the repair probably. Good luck getting a replacement or refund from them with that attitude if they decide to be awkward. You can quote the damn law all you like and some sellers will of course oblige and give you a replacement, but most I bet will tell you to stuff it, and tell you they will repair it as that's what they have agreed with Microsoft in the case fo the 360. Same with Dixons or Currys - they will send the TV, Video, DVD, whatever, back to the manufacturer for repair if its outside a certain length of time since you bought it (could be 30 days, could be more) and not give you a replacement one just like that (they may choose to of course). What, do you really think retailers are just going to land out a replacement or refund when you turn up 10 months later in the shop to say it doesn't work anymore, just because you quote some law to them. They will at least examine the merchandise to see where the fault lies (maybe it accidental damage not covered by warranty). I have personal experience of this with PC World, Compustore and Dixons. Dell are another example. They won't just give you a replacement just like that, they take the system back and try to repair it if it's over a certain no. of days old. If it's an LCD they give you a refurb not new if it's more then 30 days old. And there is squat you can do about it, outside of taking these companies/retailers to court. Of course you could stand there in the shop ranting and raving and demonstrating your knowledge of the law, all the while making a fool out of yourself, and hoping the manager gives you a refund just to get rid of you. Now I'm bored of this conversation.

mailrewop

mr.noobie wrote:

you are never online anymore liamy how come

wat u mean, on MSN.

mr.noobie

mailrewop wrote:

wat u mean, on MSN.

yesh! msn i havent seen or heard from u since the leaving cert tut tut:(
about the console gamestop in town prolly replace it for ya if ya still got the receipt

TychoCaine

Christ Miju, are you sure you know what you're talking about? The cases you cite on the consumer association's website are "merchantable quality" disputes. If the product is DOA, or fails soon after purchase then the product can be assumed to be a dud and not fit for sale. In these cases you are entitled to a refund or replacement, and very few shops these days will argue with you.

What Flaccus is banging on about is failures that happen later, during the period of the warranty and the guarantee (two very seperate things by the way). I've read the 1980 Sale of Goods and Supply of Services act (unlike you) and it is hugely vague. Take a look at it. You might learn somethng. For example, section 16 specifically states that a manufacturer can make himself the supplier of the guarantee, and section 17 says that the seller can tell you at the time of sale that your guarantee is with the manufacturer and as long as the claim process is no more difficult than working with the retailer, he can get away with it. This is exactly what the retailer did when selling stuff to Batesy.

Basically the guarantor can offer you a replacement, refund or repair after the initial period and it's his choice. If he chooses to repair the item he must return it in fully working condition (not including normal wear and tear). If the repair is unsuccessful then you do not have to accept another repair and you can insist on a replacement or refund.

"Standing one's ground" and acting like a c**t is not "getting your rights". It's using intimidation to bully staff into doing something to prevent an a$$hole creating a scene in the shop. It's not clever and not very nice to the staff in the shop. :mad:

Zapp Brannigan

TychoCaine wrote:

and not very nice to the staff in the shop. :mad:

Thank you

monument

As is posted on a sticky on the main games board...

Store policy isn’t the law

According to Irish law, you are only entitled to a refund, a replacement or a repair if a game or console etc is not of merchantable quality, not fit for its normal purpose, or not as described by advertising or wrapping, or something said by the salesperson.

Your rights are weaker for second hand products, and even more so if you are buying from another person rather then a high-street shop.

If you just change your mind, or your PC does not run a game, you are not entitled to refunds or returns. Although some store return policies such as a ‘30-day return’ policy may allow for returns just because change your mind, most of these now require the games to be sealed due to years of abuse of these policies. You also have no rights if you received a product as a gift, only the buyer retains a contract with the retailer.

According to the Consumer Association of Ireland if a product is not of merchantable quality or as descried, 'No Refunds' and 'No Exchanges' signs should be ignored. In such cases you are entitled to a refund, a replacement or a repair.

Althought many retailers blankly disagree with the following two points, the Consumer Association’s website says (1) the choice of a refund, replacement or repair is yours to make and (2) that the retailer, not the manufacturer, is responsible. See their website for more… http://www.consumerassociation.ie/rights_retailers.html

FuzzyWuzzyWazza

monument wrote:

As is posted on a sticky on the main games board...

Thanks monument, I think you have ended a lot of arguing and also added a handy link!!:D

Flaccus

Not really...this link was already posted by Miju and as Tychocaine pointed out, these are "merchantable quality" disputes. But if the product has worked for 11 months, and fails on month 12..ok you are claiming it's not of merchantible quality and your contract is with the retailer..fair enough. But then again maybe the seller told you when you bought the item that the manufacturer is responsible for the guarantee. And he can do under section 17 of sale of goods act. At the end of the day if the seller decides he wants the thing repaired you can refuse it it you want, but he mightn't give you your money back or a replacement without at least trying to get the item repaired. This is the reality in a lot of situations I have come across.

miju

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Flaccus

Roll your eyes all you want. You've proven nothing just that you can refuse a repair which we all know, but you obviously havn't read the sale of goods act you keep referring to. If you had you would know that sellers have rights too and these cases are never as clear cut as they seem. Anyway, I'm sure the staff loved your ranting and raving as you stood your ground to get your rights and embarrased yourself in the process, but of course you felt good about yourself afterwards.

miju

let it go flaccus its OK to be wrong every now and again

LegacyUser

Flaccus wrote:

Anyway, I'm sure the staff loved your ranting and raving as you stood your ground to get your rights and embarrased yourself in the process, but of course you felt good about yourself afterwards.

Well he got an exchange didn't he? Don't hate him because he has a pair of balls and you don't.

humanji

miju wrote:

let it go flaccus its OK to be wrong every now and again

[stirring shìt]Does that mean you accept you're wrong [/stirring shìt]

Flaccus

cheesedude wrote:

Well he got an exchange didn't he? Don't hate him because he has a pair of balls and you don't.

I don't hate him moron. And balls has nothing to do with it.

I see now there are so many assholes on boards its unbelievable.

And i'm not wrong. So f**k the lot of you who think I am.

LegacyUser

Flaccus wrote:

I don't hate him moron. And balls has nothing to do with it.

I see now there are so many assholes on boards its unbelievable.

And i'm not wrong. So f**k off the lot of you.

"MOMMY MOMMY"

Grow up and cry a river elsewhere...

Flaccus

Moron..you didn't even read the sale of goods act to see what the argument was about. You just came in here with your smartass comments. Now kindly kill yourself sonny and do the world a favour.

miju

see flaccus this is the last post from me on this matter.

first off I didnt make a scene in the shop I quietly and firmly insisted on my consumer rights. shops will try to bull**** you all the time so they dont have to exchange things but if you dont roll over you will usually get your exchange.

secondly , theres a big interpretation of what you think the act means and what professionally qaulified people and state advisory groups think. i know which one I'll believe, try not to take it personally though

also , if your so right then why do shops exchange / refund items all the time and xboxes that are OVER the 30 periods has plenty of people have posted on boards about getting? surely if you were right and they were wrong then no one would be getting exchanges

lastly , if your so confident take it over to the legal discussion forum and see how quickly your shot down in flames over there

like i said theres no harm in being wrong sometimes. learn from it and move on btw , personal insults to others posters could earn you a ban if your not careful and the mod of this forum sees it. try be nicer in future

Absolam

If things go wrong
If you have a problem with an item that you have bought it is always the seller who should put things right. As a general rule, the seller can either repair or replace the item. Alternatively, they can refund the costs of the item or service to the consumer.

If you are not satisfied with the quality of goods or services you can:

Return the goods to the supplier who sold it to you (you should not return the goods to the manufacturer)
Act as soon as you can – a delay can indicate that you have accepted faulty goods or services
Do not attempt to repair the item yourself or give it to anyone else to repair it
Make sure that you have a proof of purchase (a receipt, cheque stub, credit card statement or invoice)
You have no grounds for redress if

You were told about the defect before you bought the item (for example, if the goods were marked 'shopsoiled')
You examined the item before you bought it and should have seen the defect
You bought the item knowing that it wasn’t fit for what you wanted it to do
You broke or damaged the product
You made a mistake when buying the item (for example, if you bought an item of clothing thinking it was black when it is actually navy)
You change your mind
Retailers are not obliged to give refunds or credit notes under the above circumstances even if you show proof of purchase.

It is important to note that there are no hard and fast rules as to which remedy you should be entitled to. When seeking redress for problems with goods or services the circumstances of each individual case must be taken into account.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/consumer-affairs/consumer-protection/consumer-rights/consumers_and_the_law_in_ireland

Whenever you buy goods from a shop, you make a contract with them. They agree to provide certain goods to you for a certain price, and the goods should be:

Of "merchantable quality" - that means that they must be of an acceptable standard
Fit for the purpose they were bought for
As described. In other words, false or exaggerated claims must not be made by the seller
If the goods fail to comply with any of these criteria - for example, they turn out to be faulty - you have certain clear rights under consumer legislation. These entitlements come under the three R's:

Repair
Replacement
Refund
If the shop offers to repair the item, the repair should be permanent. If they offer a refund, this can be in cash or by cheque, or (where appropriate) they can refund your credit card account. If they offer you a credit note or voucher instead, it is your right not to take it and request a refund instead.

If you are not happy with their offer you have the right to request an alternative remedy, and to take legal action if you are not happy with their final offer. You have the option to refer the matter to the Small Claims Court.

http://www.consumerconnect.ie/eng/Learning_Zone/Guides_To_Consumer_Law/Shopping/



retailers retain the right to select the remedy they offer - the consumer may reject that remedy in favour of another, in the event of a dispute the courts will rule on which was 'reasonable'.

TychoCaine

Absolam / citizensinformation.ie wrote:

Act as soon as you can – a delay can indicate that you have accepted faulty goods or services

If you ask me, this looks like a fairly clear exclusion. If you go back to the shop later than 30 days, you've obviously accepted the goods, even if they were faulty at the time, thus ruling out a "merchantable quality" claim. This means the replacement/refund option at the buyer's discretion (as quoted ad nauseum @ http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/consumer-affairs/consumer-protection/consumer-rights/consumers_and_the_law_in_ireland) does not apply, so instead the repair/replace/refund warranty (the seller's choice) applies, and if you're not happy with the remedy offer, you can argue it in front of a judge in the small claims court... yes?

monument

Absolam wrote:

retailers retain the right to select the remedy they offer - the consumer may reject that remedy in favour of another, in the event of a dispute the courts will rule on which was 'reasonable'.

Not the view the Consumer Association takes...

YOUR RIGHTS :

It's not our fault. Write to the manufacturer

This response is very common, but it is wrong. Your contract is with the retailer, not the manufacturer. Remind the retailer that he is legally responsible for rectifying your problem under the Sale of Goods and Supply of Services Act 1980. If he wants to contact the manufacturer later, that is his prerogative but it has nothing to do with you.

We'll exchange the product

If you are happy with a replacement product, take it. If not, remember you are not legally obliged to accept an exchange.

We'll give you a credit note

A credit note is a voucher for the same amount you paid for the product, which can be spent in the store or in others in the same chain. If goods are defective, you do not have to accept a credit note - you are entitled to a refund. If you do accept a credit note, check if there is a time limit on using it.

We'll repair it free of charge

If goods are not of merchantable quality, you do not have to accept a repair. You can insist on a refund or a replacement.

Get it fixed under the manufacturer's guarantee

You do not have to accept this advice. Remind the retailer that your contract is with him, not the manufacturer. A guarantee is an added protection. It gives you the choice of having the goods fixed by the manufacturer under the guarantee or taking up the dispute with the retailer. A guarantee does not replace your legal rights in any way.

In some cases, using your guarantee may be the best option for convenience. For example, if you buy a hi-fi system and one switch is faulty, it might be easier to get the manufacturer to repair the switch under the guarantee, rather than expect the retailer to give you all your money back. If you decide to have the product repaired under the manufacturer's guarantee, ask the shop to lend you a replacement while yours is being repaired. The shop does not have to agree, but it may do it out of goodwill. Also, tell the shop (in writing) that you have decided to use the manufacturer's guarantee, but you reserve your statutory rights to a refund from the shop if the problem is not settled satisfactorily by the manufacturer.

We can't give refunds or exchanges without a receipt

The main purpose of a receipt is to prove you bought goods from a particular store, so it is reasonable for a retailer to check that he sold you the goods before he rectifies your complaint.

If you do not have a receipt, you may have another proof of purchase such as a cheque stub or credit card voucher. A particular trader's name may be on the product, or an assistant may remember you. If you cannot find any proof of purchase, your case is considerably wakened.

The best advice is to keep as many receipts as possible, especially for expensive goods. Write the name of the shop and the item purchased on the receipt. Also, if a store replaces goods for you, remember to ask for the receipt back with the new goods.

We don't give refunds

Stores cannot simply say they do not give refunds. Under the Sale of Goods Act, you are entitled to a refund, a replacement or a repair if a product is not of merchantable quality, fit for its purpose or as described. A retailer cannot take away those rights.

It's your fault. The product wasn't made for that purpose

Goods should be fit for their normal purpose, so don't be fobbed off with the excuse that you have not used the product properly. If the product you purchase does not do the job it is normally used to do, it is not fit for its purpose.

We don't give refunds or exchanges on sale goods

Do not accept this excuse. If goods are defective, your rights are the same under the Sale of Goods Act whether you paid the full price or a sale price. This is the case as long as you did not know about any defects at the time of purchase. However, if the goods are sold as seconds or shop-soiled, you cannot expect the same standard as in new perfect goods.

http://www.consumerassociation.ie/rights_retailers.htm

miju

TychoCaine wrote:

If you ask me, this looks like a fairly clear exclusion. If you go back to the shop later than 30 days, you've obviously accepted the goods, even if they were faulty at the time, thus ruling out a "merchantable quality" claim.

this is 100% accurate.

however, if the fault develops after 30 days then this does not affect your right to return a faulty product under the merchantable qaulity description. The perfectly valid reasoning for this that has won out time and time again in the small claims court is simply for example:

while I accepted the product after 30 days the fault did not develop for 3 months. therefore the product is expected on average to last x amount of time (based on other same models lifespan) therefore the product is not of merchantable qaulity and I now refuse to accept the product as its not of merchantable qaulity.

My old company Hotpoint lost out on this very point in the small claims courts about 99 / 100 times

TychoCaine

True... but the decision has to be made by a judge in a court. It's a subtle distinction, but the determination does not happen when the buyer decides it's faulty. It happens when a judge decides. This means that the retailer is not obliged to hand out refunds or replacements on the buyer's insistance. This is why Hotpoint left it go to small claims court each time (unless it was blatantly obvious I'm sure).

monument

But with the Xbox 360 we are talking about a console with many known flaws which the make has admitted to (and yes flaws beyond how the product is 'as described). So, I think it would be fairly easy convince a judge.

RobertFoster

My Xbox died this afternoon. Anyone know Tesco's return policy? I bought it there before Christmas when they had the 25% off electronics offer. Probably better to send it to MS because of the new heatsinks and to keep the HDD.

Zapp Brannigan

Lads all this does not answer whether a warranty is renewed with a replacement console though.

TychoCaine

Yes Monument, I'm sure a judge will rule that the seller must provide a repair/ replacement/refund for the xbox (just like anything else), but there is no guarantee that he'll rule that the seller's original offer of a repair is insufficient and make him offer a replacement or refund.

Nowhere in the sale of goods act 1980 does it mention a warranty being extended when a replacement is given. Warranty durations are from the date of sale, but a replacement is not a sale, is it? The thing to do would be to demand ones rights, like Miju advocates, and get a refund, and then buy a new console. New purchase means new warranty

Flaccus

My Xbox 360 got the red rings of death this morning. Brought it back, got a refund and bought a PS3