Tube/Valve preamps

teamdresch

Hey guys.
I'm gonna give out for a while.

There's a percieved wisdom out there that valve mic preamps will warm up, or somehow improve the sound of your recordings. Automatically.

This, is not at all necessarily the case.

It can be.

In most valve preamps that cost less than a grand, the valve is either doing little or nothing for the sound, or acting as a simple distortion box.
In most cases, the preamp is a 'starved-plate' design, that is, the valve is run below the full voltage needed to operate it properly (typically a valve will need 200-300w). This results in a loss of headroom, poor noise performance and lots of other fun stuff. Not to mention the cheapy cheap cheap valves that are typically used.
In some preamps, the valves aren't even in the audio circuit. Mind you, there is a window so you can see them being lit up by a light from below. Lovely.

There's plenty of lovely real valve preamp designs out there.
Tab V78M
A-Designs Audio MP2
And so on.
None of them are €300.

The only low cost valve preamp I know of is the Electro Harmonix 12AY7, which is now discontinued.

In short, chances are that the best preamp in your budget isn't a 'valve' preamp, simply because there's most likely a unit around that uses a cleaner, simpler circuit to do its job.

Don't be fooled by the marketing hype.

judas101

cheers for the advice.

what would you advise regarding my home recording thread?

sei046

I agree with dresch. I use a TLA 5051 and i find the tube adds a lot, sometimes too much saturation. Luckily i happen to like that sound a lot of the time. The combined track with this pre does end up being "warmer" 99% of the time. Whats important is that the tube pre is not always the best option and a lot of the time your better off going for a low-mid range non tube pre than you are a mid to high range tube pre. Dresch i commend you on bringing some proper recording talk to the thread!

sei046

for anyone looking for a low end mic pre with tubes i reccomend the SPL Goldmike or the TLa BTW

squibs

Yep - I'd rather spend two grand on a solid state/transistor preamp than on a valve preamp. I think you'd get more bang for the buck.

On the budget side of the scale, I'd rather have a €200 regular preamp than a €400 valve preamp. You know they're gonna take an indifferent circuit, crowbar a cheap valve in there, have the magic window so you can see it work and double the price just cos theres a valve

Then again - like I have 2000 to spend on a preamp - or even 400.

sei046

well in the 2 grand mark i personaly would prob look at the tube mic pres

teamdresch

Just wondering here..

What is it that people expect a valve preamp will do for them that a solid state preamp won't?

What do you base this expectation on (as in a preamp you've heard/something you read/etc.)?

judas101

i expect the same thing a tube amp does vs. solid state.

sei046

I like the subtle compression you can squeeze out of it. The harmonics and slight overdrive also help to sit the track in especially with vocals

judas101

recording with my band in the studio some of the guitars and vocals were ran through tube preamps before and it gave everything a real nice twang.

that's why i was considering getting one in the first place. didnt realize the decent ones were so prohibitively expensive

teamdresch

judas101 wrote:

i expect the same thing a tube amp does vs. solid state.

This is not at all a valid comparison, unfotunately.

sei046 wrote:

I like the subtle compression you can squeeze out of it. The harmonics and slight overdrive also help to sit the track in especially with vocals

This leads on nicely to something else I wanted to mention..
When thinking of warm, fat vintage records, you'd probably think of records made from the late sixties through to the late seventies, right?
Right around the time when studios moved from valve to solid state desks..
And the early eighties onwards when things started getting 'colder' and more 'sterile'?
Sure, some folks started using digital around then, but I think a bigger change would be the move away from transformer-based circuits to ICs.

So here's the thing.. all the most sought after vintage preamps are Neve, API, EMI, TAB designs.
ALL of them solid state, transformer-heavy designs.

Drive a transformer input hard enough and it starts to fatten up, compress and distort ever so slightly.. exactly the kind of things people expect from a valve preamp.

So, in short, the vintage sound you're hearing probably has a lot more to do with transformer based solid state designs than anything valve-related.



PS
I forgot the Groove Tubes Brick and Summit Audio 221 are affordable, decent valve preamps.

judas101

teamdresch wrote:

This is not at all a valid comparison, unfotunately.

do explain

sei046

dresch the sound i like from valves cant be gotten from tranformer drive. I often find myself going solid state like just yesterday on vocals instead of the tube because it sounded much nicer and smoother in that application.

I dont know if I fully agree with your comparison between driving tubes and transformers. I know your not saying the they are the same thing, but i know tube saturation when i hear it. Its not solidstate. It certainly does not, for me, do the exact thing i expect from a valve pre.

I think you are kind of loosing the focus of what i presume was your original point? Tubes and Solidstate are pretty much apples and oranges in my eyes. They do different things, both equally nice in different situations. I think your attacking the idea of Valves= warmer = nicer which is something which should be attacked. If im looking for the characteristics i was talking about i would hands down use a Tube pre. If i like a little cleaner, more focused sound i go solidstate.

Get a FATSO sound out of a solidstate? Im not sure.....

judas101

would you recommend the use a pre amp (tube or solid state) in a modest home recording setup such as mine (see other thread) for better recording quality?

sei046

well my setup is pretty modest and i use one! I would reccomend a RNP. Check it out on musicstore or thomann. Brilliant Pre for the cash!

judas101

what soundcard to you use with that?

sei046

Terratec Phase 88. Will be swapping that out and selling it on. Its an 8 in 8 out breakout box. great job.

squibs

Okay - interesting conversation, so I'm curious to get your thoughts on software valve emulation. Is it a joke, is it getting there or is it close enough as makes no difference?

If I posted a wav recorded thru 5 different valve preamps and DId to DAW thru 5 software valve emulation plugs, who would take the pepsi test? I don't have access to valve preamps by the way.... so it's hypothetical.

sei046

well they do do something. Its important to remember that 1+1 itb has a different resul than in real life. So these tube emulators are not as good. However i use the likes of Nomad Factorys Trackbox and PSP vintage warmer which do have a nice effect