Romanian threads, ATM lies

Stark

I assume he means rights to immigrate. Immigration control is nothing new.

SimpleSam06

Stark wrote:

I assume he means rights to immigrate. Immigration control is nothing new.

Immigration control based on population levels or societal behaviour is nothing new. Concerns about being "outbred" are also nothing new. Welcome to boards.ie, please put your trays in the fixed, upright position, and set your clocks to local time, 1907.

Stark

But at least noone will be able to come here to work, eh?

Go on Sam, say it with me. "they took our jobs".

SimpleSam06

Stark wrote:

But at least noone will be able to come here to work, eh?

Go on Sam, say it with me. "they took our jobs".

And here I thought you were crying that the gypsies didn't want to work?

Stark

Bah, was getting too difficult. I'll stick with giving out about white Irish dole scammers. Noone can get upset then.

Jumpy

Woohoo, that was me that started the whole "you have to take your card out first" thing.
"High Fyave!"

griffdaddy

SimpleSam06 wrote:

My primary concern is for this country's well being. While you appear to be entirely unable to grasp the difference between being opposed to enormous numbers of economic migrants (note there is a difference between those and immigrants), and being opposed to hate mongering polluting the country, I find no difficulty making the distinction.

Since I've already pointed this out (twice) I doubt it will make much of a dent this time either, however.

This brand of eastern european nonsense:

is more damaging than any amount of economic migrants. You aren't talking about their populations here in Ireland, you're talking about their birthrates in multiple other countries, which even on a basic practical level doesn't make sense. If the global population of Romani gypsies starts to increase beyond a certain rate, you'll curtail their rights? Great.

How can you not see the inconsistencies in your own points and then go on to berate everyone else? Firstly, if your examples of genocide and eugenics or whatever in Sweden and Slovakia are valid, so too is my point that if Roma populations in Hungary (and elsewhere) are increasing, they may increase here too. In fact, there'd be a massive outcry against eugenics and genocide if it was ever even suggested in Ireland, and in truth, it's not very likely to happen, particularly with our strong international human rights reputation, a huge increase in Roma populations is likely to happen, because it happens so quickly, and is hard to gauge until it has actually happened. Secondly, seeing as my point about Romani in Hungary is about how quickly they procreate, i thought you'd be able to grasp that while they may seem like a tiny minority now, a tiny minority that pales into insignificance with the numbers of what you feel are economic migrant bogey-men here now, this may not be the case in the future. Look at the numbers of them in other countries, they didn't all come over at once to those countries now, did they? I'd rather have lots of immigrants working and paying taxes than lots of immigrants begging and thieving. If you're so concerned about the economic and social ramifications of genuine immigrants, wait until we have loads of waster immigrants, then the fun really begins!

Mr. Presentable

SimpleSam06 wrote:

So eh if they breed too much, remove their rights. Great.

Actually, yes. And not just immigrants, also those young wans who breed like flies on the welfare for free housing etc. If you can't control yourself, we'll control you

redfacedbear

griffdaddy wrote:

seeing as my point about Romani in Hungary is about how quickly they procreate, i thought you'd be able to grasp that while they may seem like a tiny minority now....this may not be the case in the future.

Don't have stats to hand but I would assume that the infant mortality rate for the Roma is very high (given their living conditions) and life expectancy much shorter - much like for Irish Travellers. Therefore while the birth rate might be much higher this does not neccessarily translate into a growing population share.

meglome

SimpleSam06 I would hate to be called a racist and in fact I remember one friend of mine calling me a pinkie liberal. I owned two internet cafes in Dublin from 2000 to 2005 and I can tell you the vast majority of the non-nationals (which were the majority) that came in were really nice people. But I can honestly say I don't have a single good thing to say about the Roma, not one. They would come in an demand change from the big rolls of 200euro notes that they'd have in their dresses, their attitude was horrible. I've been to Romania and they are pretty much exactly the same there as they are portrayed here. I have two very goods friends who are Romanian. They are without any doubt two of the nicest people I know and they have not a good word to say about the Roma and quite a few bad things to say. I don't recall them ever speaking badly of anyone else and I've never heard a racist word out of their mouths. Not all Roma are bad people but their 'culture' has developed around begging, scavenging and stealing to make ends meet. They are systematically spreading around Europe to beg and steal as much as possible, certainly in general not to work. So it's no surprise with the tactics they employ that people are going to get really pissed off with them. People here didn't and don't always like Irish Travellers but I've never heard the vitriol that is directed at the Roma before by such large number of educated people. I'm sure there is exaggeration but I've seen so much of what other people are saying with my own eyes that I easily assume it to be true. The people on the M50 roundabout are there is get as much money out of this state as is possible by any means. If they are here illegally then send them back or were going to see many more where thy came from doing the exact same thing.

mountainyman

griffdaddy wrote:

yeah that's why i found it so weird. It was in Krakow and I had to speak to them in German through a friend who speaks German. They (2 old women) were telling us about having their houses raided, being rounded up etc. and there were some Romanis over the other side of the park. They said that even though both had been through the war, there was no connection between them, no solidarity or anything. Which, although entirely anecdotal, is still a strange thing for someone to say.

The Poles were complicit in the Jewish and Gypsy genocides. What did the AK do for the Jews during the Warsaw uprising?

MM

mountainyman

nipplenuts wrote:

Actually, yes. And not just immigrants, also those young wans who breed like flies on the welfare for free housing etc. If you can't control yourself, we'll control you

So the Irish race are to die out? Teenage mothers are the saviours of this nation.

I'd rather kill people who have no kids by the time they're 40.

MM

griffdaddy

mountainyman wrote:

The Poles were complicit in the Jewish and Gypsy genocides. What did the AK do for the Jews during the Warsaw uprising?

MM

From Wikipedia;
'In February 1942, the Operational Command of the AK Information and Propaganda Office set up the Section for Jewish Affairs, directed by Henryk Woliński.[11] This section collected data about the situation of the Jewish population, drafted reports and sent information to London. It also centralized contacts between Polish and Jewish military organizations. The AK also organised financial aid for Jews (see Żegota). The AK accepted only a few Jews (about one thousand) into its own ranks: it generally turned down Jewish applicants, since they could be more easily identified by the Nazis.

One member of the AK, Witold Pilecki, was the only person to volunteer for imprisonment in Auschwitz. The information he gathered proved crucial in convincing Western Allies about the fate of Jewish population.[1]

The AK provided the Warsaw Ghetto with about sixty revolvers, several hundred hand grenades, and ammunition and explosives. During the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising in 1943, AK units tried twice to blow up the ghetto wall, carried out holding actions outside the ghetto walls, and together with GL forces sporadically attacked German sentry units near the ghetto walls. Security Cadre (Kadra Bezpieczeństwa or KB), one of the organizations subordinate to the AK, under the command of Henryk Iwański took a direct part in fights inside the ghetto together with Jewish fighters from ŻZW and ŻOB.[12]

Three out of seven members of the Collective Command of the AK (KG AK) had Jewish origins.

While most historians agree that AK was largely untainted in collaboration with Nazis in the Holocaust,[13] the accusations of the complicity of single AK members or groups in anti-Jewish violence are frequently brought up to this day.[13] The issue remains a controversial one and is subject to a difficult debate.[14]'
I don't know much about WW2, I only have formal education in History up to Junior Cert level, but the most basic of searches for information seems to show that they at least did something.

mountainyman

First of all I do not accept that wikipedia is unbiased.

griffdaddy wrote:

The AK provided the Warsaw Ghetto with about sixty revolvers...

Says it all doesn't it?

MM

griffdaddy

redfacedbear wrote:

Don't have stats to hand but I would assume that the infant mortality rate for the Roma is very high (given their living conditions) and life expectancy much shorter - much like for Irish Travellers. Therefore while the birth rate might be much higher this does not neccessarily translate into a growing population share.

Population growth is cumulative though, the same way if you leave 2 rabbits to it they'll multiply and multiply over time, even if some die early or whatever. I don't mean in anyway to compare Romani to rabbits or anything like that, it's just an easy example to show the cumulative nature of aggressive cumulative procreation.

MooseJam

so do we have consensus, the romani are in general a bad lot, beggars and thieves, someone start a poll on this

marcsignal

Mairt wrote:

Lets face it guys.

The Roma gypies are pillar's of European society and all that ol' rubbish about them begging, robbing ATM user's, shop lifting, destroying a landscaped roundabout on the M50 and lands adjacent to it etc, etc....(by x50) are just a pack of lie's made up by horrible racist Irish people.

In every other country the Roma visit they're welcomed with open arms, aren't they?.

Shame on us.

You're absoluely right Mairt;) , we Irish are so racist and biggotted, I just can't stick it living in this closet Nazi state anymore, I'm half considering burning my Irish passport and emigrating to Romania, at least there you can have a smoke in the pub....

Also, can anyone enlighten me to what AH Boards is ?? does it have anything to do with that Austrian Homeless Beggar/Painter guy "Adi Schickelgreuber" ??

Hobbes

meglome wrote:

But I can honestly say I don't have a single good thing to say about the Roma, not one. They would come in an demand change from the big rolls of 200euro notes that they'd have in their dresses, their attitude was horrible. I've been to Romania and they are pretty much exactly the same there as they are portrayed here. I have two very goods friends who are Romanian.

Say it with me...

ROMA AND ROMANIANS ARE TWO DIFFERENT RACES.

FFS. Here let me help you understand the context.

meglome wrote:

But I can honestly say I don't have a single good thing to say about the English, not one. They would come in an demand change from the big rolls of 200euro notes that they'd have in their dresses, their attitude was horrible. I've been to Ireland and they are pretty much exactly the same there as they are portrayed here. I have two very goods friends who are Irish.

There. Can you see how stupid your comments are? Roma have been in Ireland for ages. There may be more now but they are not all coming from Romania.

mountainyman

socialism today wrote:

Eventually the ZOB had 450-500 members, women and men, carefully vetted to avoid potential informers. Most were under 25, the youngest being thirteen. A desperate drive began to acquire arms. In December 1942, it received its first shipment from the Polish Home Army (linked to the Polish government-in-exile) – ten pistols, four of which did not work. More were smuggled in, but the total remained pitifully small.

I will look up Lucy Davidowitz when I get home.

London Review of Books wrote:

The largest Polish nationalist party, which predates the new state itself and was the strongest party in pre-1926 Poland, had an unabashedly anti-semitic programme. (National Democracy, as it was called, gained 37 per cent of the vote in the 1919 elections.) True, it never succeeded in implementing its programme but the regime did nothing to stop discriminatory practices or to curb specifically anti-Jewish violence. It endorsed a variety of administrative policies which worked actively and specifically against Jews. (Jewish university enrolments dropped from 20.4 per cent of all students in 1928-29 to 9.9 per cent in 1937-38.) The problem for Jews was not a lack of understanding or legal liabilities as such but the failure of the state to protect their human rights and what should have been their civil liberties.

Sixty handguns is pathetically miserly. Perhaps it was only turnabout and fair play when the Red Army watched Warsaw Burn.

MM

mountainyman

socialism today wrote:

Eventually the ZOB had 450-500 members, women and men, carefully vetted to avoid potential informers. Most were under 25, the youngest being thirteen. A desperate drive began to acquire arms. In December 1942, it received its first shipment from the Polish Home Army (linked to the Polish government-in-exile) – ten pistols, four of which did not work. More were smuggled in, but the total remained pitifully small.

I will look up Lucy Davidowitz when I get home.

London Review of Books wrote:

The largest Polish nationalist party, which predates the new state itself and was the strongest party in pre-1926 Poland, had an unabashedly anti-semitic programme. (National Democracy, as it was called, gained 37 per cent of the vote in the 1919 elections.) True, it never succeeded in implementing its programme but the regime did nothing to stop discriminatory practices or to curb specifically anti-Jewish violence. It endorsed a variety of administrative policies which worked actively and specifically against Jews. (Jewish university enrolments dropped from 20.4 per cent of all students in 1928-29 to 9.9 per cent in 1937-38.) The problem for Jews was not a lack of understanding or legal liabilities as such but the failure of the state to protect their human rights and what should have been their civil liberties.

Sixty handguns is pathetically miserly. Perhaps it was only turnabout and fair play when the Red Army watched Warsaw Burn.

MM

marcsignal

Hobbes wrote:

ROMA AND ROMANIANS ARE TWO DIFFERENT RACES.

This is a very true and important point that Hobbes has just raised, but my fiance is Romanian and she dosen't have much time for Roma Gypsies either, having had 40 odd years experience of them, I guess that makes her an Eastern European Racist too ??

tallaghtoutlaws

SimpleSam06 Question to you?

What are you actually arguing for or against?

You seem to be defending the Roma but at the same time bluntly calling every liars for witnessing or being part of ATM crimes. Look those ATM scams have been happening for the past 20 years. Various sorts of people doing it. They got advanced at one stage with that loop scam but after a phone call to my friend who was/or still is a Roma who decided to get of his lazy ass and join the workforce in Ireland. His whole family and his relations have now made good lives for themselves here in the green isle and were once living like the rest of the Roma. My point being his family and friends also now share the same opinion as most Irish and Romanians that the Romas are no more than common thiefs and Scum (<

---

his opinion b4 anyone has a go)

As for why this is a big issue nowadays is because they are all over the place doing it. The Irish Traveller and those little Oliver Twist street urchins that once graced our city streets now find better ways to make money. The travelling community actually the majority that is do quite well making money in different things. Ever seen that 07 Merc on a halting site? I know I have.

Anyway cut a long story short Simplesam06 I think you are dilusional if you really believe that the majority off folk on this thread are telling lies about experiences.

source

From last Thursday's Limerick Post, not sure if it's been posted already this thread has snowballed and i haven't had a chance to read it all so:

ATM thieves blindside victims

GARDAI have warned members of the public to exercise extra caution when using ATMs after several people were robbed while accessing money from city centre machines in recent weeks.

A group of Romanian nationals are thought to be behind this latest type of ATM robbery, which relies on distraction to dupe the victim.

The culprits wait until the victim is half way through their transaction before springing their decoy. One individual approaches the person at the machine, sometimes pushing a magazine at them or begging for money.

While the ATM user is distracted, another second culprit grabs the money from the victim’s blind side.

At least four robberies have taken place on busy city locations. ATM users in William Stree, Sarsfield Street and O’Connell Street, have been targeted while other robberies have also been attempted.

It is thought that the culprits stake out ATM machines waiting for a likely target. It appears that the elderly and more vulnerable are most at risk. One young woman who was returning from a night out, was targeted because she was alllegedly drunk.

Garda' are warning people to be vigilant when taking money from ATM machines and to be alert to those around them.

"People need to be on the look out and need to be attentive and assertive when using ATMs,” crime prevention office,r Liam Sheehan, said.

"If you think someone is acting suspiciously beside you or if people are just hanging around outside the ATM, do not carry out your transaction, go to another machine and let the garda' know if you are concerned in any way”.

Edit:Just remembered that a friend of mine was robbed of a couple hundred euro by this very method, by a couple of roma's a few months back, i posted it in another thread but can't remember which one it is.

MooseJam

Hobbes wrote:

Say it with me...

ROMA AND ROMANIANS ARE TWO DIFFERENT RACES.

FFS. Here let me help you understand the context.

what are you shouting about, there was nothing wrong with meglome's post !

Hobbes

marcsignal wrote:

This is a very true and important point that Hobbes has just raised, but my fiance is Romanian and she dosen't have much time for Roma Gypsies either, having had 40 odd years experience of them, I guess that makes her an Eastern European Racist too ??

*shrug* whatever you think.

I am just trying to point out the stupidity of people interchanging Roma+Romanian as if they are the same thing.

Btw here is how you determine if the statement is racist. Replace "Roma Gypsies" with "Blacks". Is the statement still acceptable?

Oh and based on this thread if I was planning to mug someone I would dress up as a Roma.

Terry

Hobbes wrote:

Oh and based on this thread if I was planning to mug someone I would dress up as a Roma.

Bad idea. They'll be looking out for you now.
A celtic top will work better.

Tha Gopher

Hobbes wrote:

Btw here is how you determine if the statement is racist. Replace "Roma Gypsies" with "Blacks". Is the statement still acceptable?

.

No.

But mainly because in 10 odd years of them having become a sizeable percentage of the population Ive shared workplaces with many. And Ive never been approached for aggressive begging/charity scams in the street.

Combined with the fact that they dont camp in a forest demanding assistance, along with the fact Pavee Point would bother their hole campaigning for a load of Nigerians camped in a forest......

SimpleSam06

Jumpy wrote:

Woohoo, that was me that started the whole "you have to take your card out first" thing.
"High Fyave!"

Well done that man.

griffdaddy wrote:

Firstly, if your examples of genocide and eugenics or whatever in Sweden and Slovakia are valid, so too is my point that if Roma populations in Hungary (and elsewhere) are increasing, they may increase here too.

Wow. Seriously, just wow. Did you just support eugenics and/or genocide? What you've just said is one of the most insane things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now thicker for having listened to it.

I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

• Centuries of punishment, brutality, slavery, eugenics, expulsions, genocide and legal shenanigans have failed to resolve the gypsy issue in Europe. And now they are here.
  
• Instead of responding like the rest of the "civilised world", we should be using our heads to resolve the problem in a humane fashion, not bawling like drunken brawlers for blood.
  
• Apparently, that is too much to ask.

Terry

SimpleSam06 wrote:

• Centuries of punishment, brutality, slavery, eugenics, expulsions, genocide and legal shenanigans have failed to resolve the gypsy issue in Europe. And now they are here.
  
• Instead of responding like the rest of the "civilised world", we should be using our heads to resolve the problem in a humane fashion, not bawling like drunken brawlers for blood.
  
• Apparently, that is too much to ask.

What are you going to do about it?

griffdaddy

SimpleSam06 wrote:

Well done that man.


Wow. Seriously, just wow. Did you just support eugenics and/or genocide? What you've just said is one of the most insane things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now thicker for having listened to it.

I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

• Centuries of punishment, brutality, slavery, eugenics, expulsions, genocide and legal shenanigans have failed to resolve the gypsy issue in Europe. And now they are here.
  
• Instead of responding like the rest of the "civilised world", we should be using our heads to resolve the problem in a humane fashion, not bawling like drunken brawlers for blood.
  
• Apparently, that is too much to ask.

your powers of manipulation are astonishingly shíte. I clearly meant that you can't rubbish one foreign case example and champion another, regardless of subject.

SimpleSam06

griffdaddy wrote:

your powers of manipulation are astonishingly shíte.

Your powers of English aren't far behind me so.

griffdaddy wrote:

I clearly meant that you can't rubbish one foreign case example and champion another, regardless of subject.

Hokay, how does that translate to this:

griffdaddy wrote:

Firstly, if your examples of genocide and eugenics or whatever in Sweden and Slovakia are valid, so too is my point that if Roma populations in Hungary (and elsewhere) are increasing, they may increase here too.

"Clearly" does not mean what you think it means. And christ, how hard is it to put together a logical train of thought here? Of course you can rubbish one foreign cause and champion another. Seriously man, you're doing yourself far more damage than I ever could. Just stop now.

SimpleSam06

Terry wrote:

What are you going to do about it?

Same as always. Use my head.

Terry

To do what?

marcsignal

Hobbes wrote:

*shrug* whatever you think.

I am just trying to point out the stupidity of people interchanging Roma+Romanian as if they are the same thing.

well actually I was agreeing with you on this one, but the fact is most Romanians hate being tarred with the same brush because they themselves see the Roma as dishonest thieves and scammers, so you see it's not just the 'Racist Biggoted Irish' that feel this way.

Hobbes wrote:

Btw here is how you determine if the statement is racist. Replace "Roma Gypsies" with "Blacks". Is the statement still acceptable?

Well yes I suppose you could use that simple, and (forgive me for saying so) rather clumsy analagy, but I've never heard of any cases of people being robbed at ATM's by gangs of marauding Rastas ? Any black person I know or have ever met would be appaled by such a thing.

griffdaddy

SimpleSam06 wrote:

"Clearly" does not mean what you think it means. And christ, how hard is it to put together a logical train of thought here? Of course you can rubbish one foreign cause and champion another. Seriously man, you're doing yourself far more damage than I ever could. Just stop now.

Your point-If anti-Roma sentiment continues unchecked, genocide and eugenics might not be as far off a possibility as people think, look at relatively recent examples of Sweden and Slovakia. My point- Although there may be only a small number of Roma here now they will more than likely gain in numbers quickly, look at examples in Hungary and the rest of Europe. Your response- Hungary has nothing to do with here, you can't use that as an example, and (implicit from earlier in the thread) we should help this small group adapt and deal with the problem.
How is it that you can't see why what's happening in Hungary is relevent to Ireland but you can see that what happened in Sweden and Slovkia is?

meglome

Hobbes wrote:

Say it with me...

ROMA AND ROMANIANS ARE TWO DIFFERENT RACES.

FFS. Here let me help you understand the context.

Quote:
Originally Posted by meglome
But I can honestly say I don't have a single good thing to say about the Roma, not one. They would come in an demand change from the big rolls of 200euro notes that they'd have in their dresses, their attitude was horrible. I've been to Romania and they are pretty much exactly the same there as they are portrayed here. I have two very goods friends who are Romanian.

Quote:
Originally Posted by meglome
But I can honestly say I don't have a single good thing to say about the English, not one. They would come in an demand change from the big rolls of 200euro notes that they'd have in their dresses, their attitude was horrible. I've been to Ireland and they are pretty much exactly the same there as they are portrayed here. I have two very goods friends who are Irish.

There. Can you see how stupid your comments are? Roma have been in Ireland for ages. There may be more now but they are not all coming from Romania.

Em Hobbes did you actually read what I posted. I'm probably one of the few people on boards who has actually been to Romania. So I would know better than most that the Roma and the Romanians are completely different races of people. If you want to hear racism try Romania I had people say to me that they would line the Roma up and shoot them.

I'll clarify my other point. I have a serious problem with the 'culture' of the Roma. It involves begging, scavenging and stealing to make money. It rarely appears to involve working. I have seen quite a lot of what people are posting here with my own eyes so I KNOW it's true.

In my opinion the Roma on the M50 are pulling a scam, there looking to get as much as possible for free out of the state. The gardai are saying they are involved in crime and the Romanian ambassador is saying that at least some of them have homes in Romania, so their story doesn't add up. Not to mention that quite a few of them didn't come here from Romania they came from other European countries.

The_Hustler

foinse wrote:

Edit:Just remembered that a friend of mine was robbed of a couple hundred euro by this very method, by a couple of roma's a few months back, i posted it in another thread but can't remember which one it is.

This actually happened to a colleague of mine on Saturday. He didn't say where the person was from. There seemed to be just one person anyway, unless the other one didn't get a chance to do anything/was too scared because my colleague grabbed the mugger by the neck and snapped the money back.

The only story I've actually heard where the person didn't lose the money. He did have to go to to the Central Bank to exchange a fifty that got ripped though.

I asked him about the whole having to take the ATM card out first thing (because the mugger did press an amount on the machine) but he said it happened too fast.

meglome

griffdaddy wrote:

Your point-If anti-Roma sentiment continues unchecked, genocide and eugenics might not be as far off a possibility as people think, look at relatively recent examples of Sweden and Slovakia. My point- Although there may be only a small number of Roma here now they will more than likely gain in numbers quickly, look at examples in Hungary and the rest of Europe. Your response- Hungary has nothing to do with here, you can't use that as an example, and (implicit from earlier in the thread) we should help this small group adapt and deal with the problem.
How is it that you can't see why what's happening in Hungary is relevent to Ireland but you can see that what happened in Sweden and Slovkia is?

genocide and eugenics... are you actually serious. It's simple, people are seeing things happen around them they really don't like and they are expressing this. It seems that a majority of Irish people do not want more Roma in this country, not because they are racist but because they've seen and heard enough to know that in general the Roma don't add to society they take from it.

Let's imagine for a moment that I know someone who translated a large number of the Roma refugee applications back in the day. And let's imagine that person told me that most of them were total crap and did not add up. These applications funnily enough contained very similar stories to the ones told by the Roma camped on the roundabout. In fact the stories are remarkably similar across the board. It must be a living hell in Romania, oh wait I've been there and it's far from perfect but it's not that bad.

Obviously not all the Roma are likely to be dishonest but so far the dishonest ones are making a big impression so it's unsurprising that all Roma are being lumped together.

darkman2

Get them out of this country now. Ive been listening on radio to this debate and EVERY Romanian living here has unequivically said - get them out fast! These people are the slyest of the sly. They wont work and demand welfare. Every Romanian ive heard says - basically if you know whats good for you get rid of these people and I 100% agree. The premise being an influx of these leeches. They are adament this WILL happen if they are allowed to stay.

Hobbes

marcsignal wrote:

Well yes I suppose you could use that simple, and (forgive me for saying so) rather clumsy analagy, but I've never heard of any cases of people being robbed at ATM's by gangs of marauding Rastas ? Any black person I know or have ever met would be appaled by such a thing.

Yet somehow you seem to think that Roma people wouldn't be? I mean how many Roma do you think are stealing from people at ATMs?

eth0_

Hobbes wrote:

Btw here is how you determine if the statement is racist. Replace "Roma Gypsies" with "Blacks". Is the statement still acceptable?
.

It's not racist because no one legitimately could say black people are all bad people with criminal intentions. There's way more Africans in Ireland now than Roma, and have you ever had a bad experience with any of them? I know I haven't.

Yet the Roma, despite being a smaller community, have caused so much trouble that people justifiably brand them all as criminals.

gurramok

It looks like most of them realize their scam is not goin to work and are going back to Romania(to Hobbes, these batch of Roma are originally from Romania and are not the same the the Romanians themselves, just like Meglome said )

Now the 20 thats left must think everyone else is stupid to fall for their disgraceful scam.
Shame on Pavee Point for encouraging this type of thing.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0724/roma.html?rss

rte wrote:

Around 50 members of the Roma community living on the roundabout off the M50 at Ballymun have left the area under garda supervision.

Members of the Garda National Immigration Bureau and the Dublin Metropolitan North Division went to the roundabout at 5am this morning.

Gardaí say around 50 people voluntarily left the area, boarded buses and were taken to accommodation where they are currently being cared for.

They will remain there until they are repatriated to northern Romania.

It is believed there are still around 20 people left at the camp.

Last night, the Minister for Justice, Brian Lenihan, said he had served deportation notices on members of the Roma community encamped on the roundabout.

Minister Lenihan said the Roma community there would be removed from the State unless they could give a valid reason to remain.

Speaking on RTÉ's Questions and Answers, Mr Lenihan said the Romanian community in Ireland had advised him that if the State allowed the Roma people into Ireland, thousands more would follow.

Representatives of the Roma community had said a number of those living at the roundabout had agreed to be repatriated to Romania.

The rest of the community had decided to remain at the camp, saying they did not want to return to Romania.

eth0_

This makes for interesting reading. It's why the Roma believe it is THEIR RIGHT to thieve.

"One day long ago a Roman soldier visited a Gypsy Smith to order 12 large nails. The Gypsy began work on the nails but he had no idear that they were to be used to nail Jesus and the two thieves to the Crosses.

The night before the crucifixion, a little Gypsy girl slept in a camp nearby, she had the gift of sight, in a vision she saw that the Gypsy Smith had been tricked, and the reason for which the nails were intended.

The little girl crept from her bed, and used her gift to find the place where the nails lay waiting , she was very small and the nails were on a high shelf , the little girl strained to reach the nails. Just as she they were almost in reach she heard a Roman guard approach the room, she managed to grab just three of the nails the others clattered to the floor, she had been seen ..but she managed to escape with the three nails.

This why Jesus and the two theives were crucified with just three nails each...a nail for each hand..and a single nail to secure the feet.

The Gypsies had to flee because the Roman soldiers were very angry aboyt the little girl stealing the nails..God the father saw it all..and smiled down upon the Gypsy people..and as the little girl had used her gift..and stolen..in an attempt to save his beloved son..God bestowed upon the Gypsy people for all time the right to steal...but if this right were accepted then the gift of Sight would could never be used to see for each other....this is using the gift to see for each other is a taboo for the Gypsy people.


After the crucifixion a lynch mob was formed to hunt down the Gypsies..but the Gypsies escaped The story goes that ever since ..the "gadje" ( non Gypsy people) have been hunting for the Gypsies..and this is another reason why the Gypsies are wanderers According to the story..it is only when the nails are found that the persecution of the Gypsies will end.

joseph brand

After the crucifixion a lynch mob was formed to hunt down the Gypsies..but the Gypsies escaped The story goes that ever since ..the "gadje" ( non Gypsy people) have been hunting for the Gypsies..and this is another reason why the Gypsies are wanderers According to the story..

Some scholars hypothesize that a nomadic ethnic group moved out of India about 1000 BC and became the ancestors of the contemporary European Roma (Gypsies). Nobody knows why they left. Maybe they were chased form India???

My Fiance works in Penneys in town. She knows from talking to security in there, that the Gypsies have layers in their dresses. This forms a functional aide to thieving. One Gypsie was caught with '4' Duvet sets in her dress. They thieve from the shop and from customers alike.

We are known as Gadje to Roma.

The Roma are ethnocentric, tending to demonstrate a sense of moral superiority and contempt toward the Gadje. The Roma have a strict taboo code that classifies all outsiders as soiled or unclean. This code prevents interaction with the Gadje and further limits acculturation

http://www3.baylor.edu/~Charles_Kemp/gypsy_health.htm


How come you never hear of a Gypsie worker complaining about other Gypsies giving Gypsies a bad name???

griffdaddy

meglome wrote:

genocide and eugenics... are you actually serious. It's simple, people are seeing things happen around them they really don't like and they are expressing this. It seems that a majority of Irish people do not want more Roma in this country, not because they are racist but because they've seen and heard enough to know that in general the Roma don't add to society they take from it.

Let's imagine for a moment that I know someone who translated a large number of the Roma refugee applications back in the day. And let's imagine that person told me that most of them were total crap and did not add up. These applications funnily enough contained very similar stories to the ones told by the Roma camped on the roundabout. In fact the stories are remarkably similar across the board. It must be a living hell in Romania, oh wait I've been there and it's far from perfect but it's not that bad.

Obviously not all the Roma are likely to be dishonest but so far the dishonest ones are making a big impression so it's unsurprising that all Roma are being lumped together.

I know, That's exactly what I'm arguing. It was a response/summary of simplesam's point that genocide/eugenics might not be such an unrealistic outcome of such hatred. Read my posts again man, of course i don't believe anti-Roma sentiment will lead to genocide/eugenics, and i see this sentiment the same as every other rational person does; a natural response to a group of people who is clearly taking the proverbial and is doing the same around the rest of Europe.

marcsignal

Hobbes wrote:

Yet somehow you seem to think that Roma people wouldn't be? (appaled by robbing from ATMs) I mean how many Roma do you think are stealing from people at ATMs?

Well, if I'm honest I don't know how many Roma are stealing from people at ATMs, or Shoplifting for that matter, having not seen any actual statistics, but I do know I've never seen anyone from the Roma Community in Ireland condemning this practice on T.V. or in the Papers or anywhere else, when some Roma are caught red handed committing these crimes.

Regarding the M50 issue, unless the Romanian Ambassador to Ireland is also an Eastern European Racist, I think we should take on board what she has to say about the Roma involved in this case. By all accounts she does not have a positive view of them. Forgive my pragmatism, but I feel she would be more of an authority on the Roma involved in this case than some Irish spokesperson from Pave Point.

This will go slightly off point from the OP but stay with me..

Hobbes wrote:

Btw here is how you determine if the statement is racist. Replace "Roma Gypsies" with "Blacks". Is the statement still acceptable?

Lets be clear crystal about this, it is my own opinion that Racism is COMPLETELY WRONG wherever it happens and in whatever form it takes. It is an extremely complicated and multi-faceted issue, it is not something you can simply and clearly define by comparing it to a game of 'Blankety-Blank' nor is it exclusively a 'White on Black' thing, or a 'White on Roma' thing for that matter.

Your example quoted above sounds like something taken from a 'Residents Against Racism' pamphlet or something ? An organisation I used to occasionally give money to when they had city centre pub collections, until I became disillusioned with their spokeswoman 'Rosanna Flynn' repeatadely defending the indefensible in the Media. In my opinion she does the organisation, and their rightful cause, more damage than good, and certain spokespeople from Pave Point are not too far behind her.

stooge

In response to the first post -

I'm of the opinion the OP is trying to make a name for his/her self by saying something controversial. I dont think anyone can be so naive to believe that ATM crime is nonsense.

How many first hand accounts, television reports, newspaper reports, court cases does it take for him to be convinced? Moreover, each theft is different, sometimes the money is taken after the user has retreived their card, sometimes they are distracted during the process, sometimes the money is taken while they are putting money away ..there are any number of different scenarios including bank machines that act differently.

About 2 years ago I saw a women robbed by what I believe were 2 romanians (I lived and worked in romania for a while and am fairly confident their accents were Romanian. Might I just add that I had a great time in Romania and loved the prople and the place so this isn't anti romanian or anything, just my experience). After a brief chase they got away, the guards turned up soon after while I was with the women.

She said one of them came up with a map asking for directions just as she was about to press the button for the amount of money. she tried to get him out of the way at which point she noticed the other man taking the money. Now before you get your knickers in a twist, the card wasn't stolen, just the money. I dont know whether that particular bank machine (the one beside stephens green across from where the horses and carts are) gave the money out before the card, or whether the card was simply taken out and thrown on the ground. The simple fact is the guys got off with the money(100E iirc) and she still had her card.

Some of my friends have also been mugged after retrieving money from cash machines(although this happened up north).

I can only hope the OP changes his/her opinion or admits that the oringinal port was made to provoke, otherwise he/she could be a victim.

meglome

griffdaddy wrote:

I know, That's exactly what I'm arguing. It was a response/summary of simplesam's point that genocide/eugenics might not be such an unrealistic outcome of such hatred. Read my posts again man, of course i don't believe anti-Roma sentiment will lead to genocide/eugenics, and i see this sentiment the same as every other rational person does; a natural response to a group of people who is clearly taking the proverbial and is doing the same around the rest of Europe.

I see your point however far fetched I think it is but I personally have no hatred for the Roma whatsoever but I really don't want more of them to come into the country, it's as simple as that really.

griffdaddy

meglome wrote:

I see your point however far fetched I think it is but I personally have no hatred for the Roma whatsoever but I really don't want more of them to come into the country, it's as simple as that really.

haha, It wasn't my point, it was someone else's that i was paraphrasing! I agree though, I don't want any Roma coming into the country if the present lot are representative of the rest as a whole. Pavee Point would want to cop the fúck on as well, they were starting to gain a little bit of credibility as a well tempered, logical Traveller support group, then they rubbish it by coming out in defence of these idiots on the roundabout.

Gran Hermano

I guess it was only a matter of time, but the remaining Roma have
started their quest for claiming handouts from the Irish government and
taxpayers:

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mhcwauojgboj/

A High Court action brought by a Romanian woman and her six-month-old baby who has been staying at a camp on a roundabout on the M50 aimed at securing family support services has been adjourned until Friday.......

....
She brought High Court proceedings against the HSE aimed at securing family support services, including emergency accommodation.

If they detest their self-imposed conditions on the M50 so much why are they refusing the offer of free flights home.
The biggest mistake we can make as a nation is we award them anything, all it will do is prove to them that
they were right in coming here and putting up with short term discomfort for long term gain.