There may be trouble ahead ?

heyjude

Before I start, I know that Lewis Hamilton didn't score any points in the European Grand Prix today, but the incident concerning the red flagging of the race puzzled me and the fact that it was allowed has me wondering whether the FIA / Race Control have opened a can of worms that will have serious consequences in future races.

As anyone who watched the race will recall, the rain came pouring down, the cars were aquaplaning on the water and Button lost control of his car, slid across the gravel and into the tyre wall, within seconds Sutil and then Hamilton experienced the same thing at the same spot, followed within seconds by Rosberg and Liuzzi. By sheer good luck, none of the cars collided with each other, but while Button, Sutil, Rosberg and Liuzzi climbed from their cars and walked to safety behind the barrier, Hamilton stayed in his car, kept the engine running and waited for his car to be lifted, carried across the gravel trap and put back on the track after which he resumed the race. The TV coverage seemed to brush this off as being like the Schumcaher incident of a few years ago, but as I recall, in the Schumacher incident, Schumachers' Ferrari was either only partially in the gravel or at worst, at the trackside edge of the gravel and a couple of marshals were able to push him back onto the track, he didn't need the help of a crane/lift and his car wasn't carried back onto the track. Now having said that, I disagreed with Schumacher getting that help either, if you go into the gravel and can't get back on the track on your own, then you should be out of the race. I mean, there was an incident before where a car stalled coming out of the pits and they said that the team technicians couldn't go down past the end of the pit lane to help, so why is external help from marshals vehicles allowed ?

If no action is taken against Hamilton, then I can see a situation developing whereby team managers instruct their drivers, "if you go off and end up in the gravel, stay in the car, keep the engine running and wait to be lifted back into the race". This would mean a dangerous situation whereby instead of drivers getting out of marooned cars, they stay in them and risk being injured by other cars crashing into the same gravel trap.

Maybe F1 needs a rule that if you go into the gravel and cannot get out by yourself, then you are out of the race and even if you are lifted back onto the track, you are disqualified.

Lots of cars have ended up in the gravel over the years, many still had their engines going as they spun the wheels to try to escape, but until now I had never seen the marshals lift one of these cars back into the race. Hamilton was stuck way back in the gravel and wouldn't have been able to get out of it without help.

If McLaren are happy with how the marshals rescued Hamilton in Germany(Mercedes home), wait till we see what happens in a few weeks time in Monza. The Ferraris will have their own AA service :rolleyes: which would be a farce.

But the FIA needs to clarify things before it gets out of hand.

FrostyJack

It was ridiculous allowing him to be picked up by the crane for safety and fairness reasons, but there was a more dangerous situation which occured later on in the race, the bit where ITV said "Lewis the Lion Heart", which nearly cased me to choke on my own vomit! I'm sure plently of people died when they heard that. Especially when he was in almost last place.

The Schumacher incident was let slid because he was deemed to be in a dangerous position, the safety car was out when he was lifted out today how can they compare the 2 situations, if anything the teleporter coming onto the track CREATED a dangerous situation. Also I hope McCLaren get punished for letting Alonso out like they did on the last pitstop, could have creased the whole Honda pit crew.

heyjude

FrostyJack wrote:

Also I hope McCLaren get punished for letting Alonso out like they did on the last pitstop, could have creased the whole Honda pit crew.

True - they need to do something about pitlane discipline before someone gets seriously injured.

I think Honda were planning a complaint about this.

DermoMIO

FrostyJack wrote:

Also I hope McCLaren get punished for letting Alonso out like they did on the last pitstop, could have creased the whole Honda pit crew.

too right they should alonso's win should be taken from him the points deducted cause if they hadnt of done that Fishi would of been ahead of him which would of meant that was one more person he had to overtake to win the race which he might or might of done but still if it was a lesser team that did the same thing the driver would of imediatly been punished with a stop go penalty or disqualified:rolleyes:

p.s. biased ferrari fan wrote that but would still say the same if it was massa who did what alonso did

Ghost Train

It was a very unusual thing to happen, first of all I think button damaged his car so he didn't have much choice, sutile hit pretty hard too so might have been damaged. I'd say you could argue too wheather it's safer to hop out of the car where youre unprotected or wait safely in the cockpit till things calm down. The marshals had five or six cars to deal with, carrying hamilton to the track might have been the most sensible option to offload the car and clean up the mess.

I didn't really have a problem with him being able to continue, it's another car racing and adds another factor for the race, the rules say it's okay, if your in a dangerous position the marshals can give you assistance.

I do see that it could be seen as unfair and if he'd scored points other teams might well have complained. But think it was just a weird race and lewis was just lucky the marshals did what they did, or did what he wanted them to do. Mclaren releasing alonso into the renault was a bit cheeky, but nothing happened and if the team want to risk it, I think it's fair enough, it happens every now and then and is good close racing.

I did think it took them a bit too long to red flag the race, could have acted half a minute quicker maybe, given how many cars had gone off at the first corner, and two tractors had come out on the track there.

Really enjoyed the race, weather really made the start and end interesting

FrostyJack

The marshals had five or six cars to deal with, carrying hamilton to the track might have been the most sensible option to offload the car and clean up the mess.

No the sensible option would have been to wait until the safety car picked up the field and then drive the teleporters onto the circuit, did you not see how close it was to been hit? It is never sensible to have the teleporters on the track unless the F1 cars know about it, defo not when they are spinning around out of control.

eolhc wrote:

Mclaren releasing alonso into the renault was a bit cheeky, but nothing happened and if the team want to risk it, I think it's fair enough, it happens every now and then and is good close racing.

So it is up to the team eh? By that logic Williams can drive straight through all the other pit crews if they want to, NO!! it is illegal, like releasing a driver into another in the pits. Yes similar incident have happened in the past, Renault did it a lot the last 2 years but that doesnt make it right, it only has to happen once. They will probably do something like remove pitstops if it does so I don't want it to happen ever.

thegoth

I have nothing against Lewis. He seems like he is a nice guy and will win numerous world titles, but the bottom line is that once he was raised by the teleporter, he should not have been put back on track.

The regulations state that a car can only be helped back on track if it is in a dangerous position. When the teleporter hoisted Lewis's McLaren 15ft into the air, it was no longer in a dangerous position, therefore should not have been returned to the track. Its that simple.

MS case was different, as he was pushed by marshals back onto the track. I think that the FIA should disqualify him from the German GP in order to send a message to other teams and drivers not to start this crap. If you spin out, then tough sh*t. You will learn from your mistake.

Ghost Train

thegoth wrote:

I have nothing against Lewis. He seems like he is a nice guy and will win numerous world titles, but the bottom line is that once he was raised by the teleporter, he should not have been put back on track.

The regulations state that a car can only be helped back on track if it is in a dangerous position. When the teleporter hoisted Lewis's McLaren 15ft into the air, it was no longer in a dangerous position, therefore should not have been returned to the track. Its that simple.

MS case was different, as he was pushed by marshals back onto the track. I think that the FIA should disqualify him from the German GP in order to send a message to other teams and drivers not to start this crap. If you spin out, then tough sh*t. You will learn from your mistake.

it's hardly his fault that the marshals put him back on the track, if the fia have a problem with it they should clarify the rules and instruct marshals what to do in future in similar circumstances, but I don't see it as something a driver should be punished for.

probably a bit early to say he will win world championships. Will be interesting to see if the charges against mclaren for spying lead to him loosing some points this year

heyjude

eolhc wrote:

it's hardly his fault that the marshals put him back on the track, if the fia have a problem with it they should clarify the rules and instruct marshals what to do in future in similar circumstances, but I don't see it as something a driver should be punished for.

probably a bit early to say he will win world championships. Will be interesting to see if the charges against mclaren for spying lead to him loosing some points this year

It wasn't directly his fault that the marshals put him back on the track, though you could hardly say that having stayed in the car with the engine running while they hoisted it into the air, that he wasn't inviting them to put him back on the track. I just think that by allowing him to continue in the race they have created a situation that could cause problems in the future and also create accusations of marshals favouring certain teams. I mean in this case, you had a Mercedes powered car being hoisted back into a race in Germany. Will Ferrari expect similar treatment in Monza and what about Honda and Toyota in Japan ? Until now, the drivers would have regarded the marshals as neutral, this incident could change that.

McLaren also got benefit of the doubt(so far) over the incident with Alonso in the pitlane in Germany and that's without mentioning the alleged spying incident. Race control will need a special team just to deal with McLaren :rolleyes:

Ghost Train

I think you always get questions about favouritism of marshals, especially when it comes to things like blue flags. Hamilton been given the blue flags very early for massa last weekend was a bit odd to me, but that was just the way it went. Ferrari in the past have been seen in the past to get a bit of help or bit of lee way. I think you'll always get the odd race and incident that stretch the rules a bit and I think it's right that the teams and drivers use the rules to their advantage, if they break the rules they should be punished etc, but I prefere to see the fia being sensible and not going overboard for little things, and not rushing to make an example of somebody or make rule changes that might effect the racing.

Kali

Did Button and Sutil get out of their respective cars immediately or only after the marshals had arrived? I find it more dangerous that Hamilton was allowed to stay in the car at a dangerous corner while it was being hoisted (and while other cars were still circulating)... drivers should get out of the car as quickly as possible and to safety.

Ghost Train

Button jumped out of the car pretty quick up on to the tyre barrier and hung onto the catch fence, I'm not sure about sutile. The cockpit of the car is pretty protected though, and if hamilton had hopped out sutiles car could possibly have hit him, as it just missed hitting his car by a few inches.
Would be interesting to know if hamilton was being told by the team/ron dennis to stay in the car or just decided himself, and if he had to argue with the marshals much or they just figured it out what he wanted.

Here's a story that says the fia have said the crane lift was legal

The FIA, the sport’s governing body, confirmed yesterday that the controversial incident in the race on Sunday when Hamilton was lifted in his car back on to the track by a crane after sliding off was legal, given that his engine was running and the vehicle was in a dangerous place.