Ferguson thinks 4 teams can win it, do you?

Mr Alan

So in todays papers, Ferguson is saying that it'll be close and any four of the top clubs can win it.

Do you agree?
Is Ferguson playing mind games? (although his mind games usually involve putting down opposition, dont they?!?)
Have Arsenal made a mistake getting rid of Henry?
Will Torres help Liverpool bridge the gap?
Have Chelseas free signings strenghened an already extremely strong team?

(this place is too quiet lately!)

Xavi6

Arsenal won't win it. They couldn't cope without Henry last season when he was injured and they haven't adequately replaced him now.

Liverpool will do what they do every year. Start out with high hopes and expectations but will once again disappoint their fans who for some reason think they have a God given right to the title.

That's leaves two teams - United and Chelsea. United won it last year and have strenghtened over the summer so therefore it'll be them again.

Mr Alan

Surely that logic doesn't hold up though seen as two years ago Chelsea won the title, then bought Ashley Cole, Michael Ballack and Scevchenko, but didn't win it the following season?

Mitch Connor

millersangel wrote:

Surely that logic doesn't hold up though seen as two years ago Chelsea won the title, then bought Ashley Cole, Michael Ballack and Scevchenko, but didn't win it the following season?

Yeah, but ashley cole exposes the lack of pace in the centre of the chelsea defence, as his is not as defensively sound as Gallas was there.

The purchases of Ballack and Shevchenko forced a change in formation and sytle that didn't really work,too many central midfielders. Also, Chelsea still managed to finish a comfortable second. With a bit more luck this season they could easily win the title back.

I don't think the United style will change all that much, given that Ronaldo and Rooney kinda played where ever they wanted to last season anyway - players like Nani and Anderson will fit in well there, and Hargreaves will be a lot better in the middle then O'Shea was.

As for Arsenal, i certainly believe they have the talent and ability to win the league, but they don't have many experienced players to guide them - if Gilberto, Gallas or Toure get injured i could see Arsenal falling apart, because as good as Fabregas, Denilson and co are, i don't know if they can pull through in the tough winter months if the squad is depleted. I don't think Henry leaving will effect them too negitively - as he was not performing well last season and seeemed to want out. I think Adebayor and van Persie could form a very effective partnership, but the continuing lack of a real winger to give genuine width has to be a concern for the fans.

Liverpool have seriously strengthened this summer - and I can see them mounting a proper title challenge. I still feel they need to sign a winger though - Babel is not it, and neither is Yossi.

jesus_thats_gre

Xavi6 wrote:

Liverpool will do what they do every year. Start out with high hopes and expectations but will once again disappoint their fans who for some reason think they have a God given right to the title..

God given right to the title? Are you actually serious here?


Hmmm still between Chelsea and United. I think Chelsea will be alot better this season. Liverpool will hopefully be able to compete with both of them but it will take 2, maybe 3, more quality additions before I can genuinely say we are in with a good shout. Saying that, if about 20 things go our way, you never know

One Cold Hand

I think Liverpool will so better than other seasons. They may not win it but hopefully it will be a lot closer this year. I think Utd, Chelsea and Liverpool all have strong squads. Arsenal won't do much this year and I think the 4th Champions League spot is up for grabs.

While Utd have strenghtened I think Chelsea were hit hard by injuries (to Terry and Cech) and underperformance (Shev and Ballack). I would expect Chelsea to imporve and Liverpool to be a lot stronger. It could be very tight this year.

marcphisto

Liverpool won't win it next season but I fully expect them to be in the running for most of the season. What'll cost us is lack of decent wingers. At least Rafa knows this and is acting upon it.

It's between Utd and Chelsea again and I would expect Arsenal to struggle to hold off Spurs for fourth place. Unless they actually buy a goalscorer of some description!

zing

I think AF is just showing the other 3 from the top 4 the respect they deserve. They're all capable of pushing for the title and none of them should be written off at this stage - there's still plenty of time for more signings if teams need more signings and who knows how injuries, etc.. will affect the season. Whether or not they do push is another thing but they are each capable of it and AF knows that.

Mourinho said similar recently iirc but also reckoned spurs could make the top 4 into a top 5.

Lex Luthor

I thought he said it was between 5 teams...(Spurs included with the other 4)

To be honest I think Chelsea will win, but it will be hard fought between them, Man U & Liverpool. Ars & Spurs to fight it out for 4th spot.

Mitch Connor

All in all - it looks like it could be the most interesting premiership season in a long time.

Duiske

Xavi6 wrote:

.

Liverpool will do what they do every year. Start out with high hopes and expectations but will once again disappoint their fans who for some reason think they have a God given right to the title.

.

Ferguson thinks 4 teams can win it ? Talk about stating the bleed'in obvious.
As a Liverpool fan, I'm looking forward to this season more than any I have since the Souness sabotage incident. Heart says Liverpool win it, but head says.....
1. Man Utd
2. Liverpool
3. Chelsea
4. Arsenal

ShriekingSheet

Lex Luthor wrote:

I thought he said it was between 5 teams...(Spurs included with the other 4)

To be honest I think Chelsea will win, but it will be hard fought between them, Man U & Liverpool. Ars & Spurs to fight it out for 4th spot.

Let's face it, he knows what he's talking about at this stage. The "Top 4" have been hyped as unsurpassable based on a run of results but in the past 12 years or so, Aston Villa, Blackburn and Newcastle have all finished second or better. I think there's always scope for a flash in the pan.

PHB

For the purposes of this conversation, I'm going to assume that United sign Tevez and Liverpool sign CB cover.

I think between United and Chelsea, it's neck and neck. United have strengthened with the addition of Hargreaves who I think will be a huge boost. Saha being injured is a major downer, but once he gets back in early, I think we can do what we have to do, which is get ahead of them early. We have to take the lead. I can see it that whichever team gets ahead first between them, will win it.

In terms of who else can compete? Arsenal still terrify me. If they get going, they can put the majority of the teams in the premiership away with ease. They have strengthened in the right areas (although I think a new LB and another winger wouldn't go astray) and they have the front combination of Van Persie and Eduardo, who I think will be very impressive. With Cesc getting better, and Gallas and Toure in central defence, it would not surprise me to see them up there. They might not have the depth to win it, but they are defo my 3rd favorites.

Liverpool have defo strengthened, but I still think that they are missing some real class in key areas. Right wing, up front, and in defence (althought this might be fixed with another signing as said earlier) Torres is good, but he isn't an out and out goalscorer, which I think they need to partner Torres to propell them. Pennant just isn't good enough, and unless Gerrard is on the right wing (which could well happen, but will in turn weaken their central midfield) I think it'll be a problem. The biggest problem I think Liverpool is motivation. I don't think a lot of the players have the hunger, the real hunger, that gets you through the horrible winter games. If they were playing Chelsea every week they could easily get the better of them, but their consistency over the years have been shocking. They don't seem to have the same ability as the other three to get a run going and keep it going even when you face the tricky ties of the derbies or of Bolton/Spurs/Everton.

Spurs are a really interesting team. Their attack is as good as any in the league, bar maybe United's. Left wing is still not quite good enough, but up front their strikers are top class, and Lennon is a cracking player.
I think in terms of really challenging for the title, I'd be very surprised. I think they'd need to get lucky with injuries to do it, but I can see Berbatov and Keane forming a strikeforce on par with Yorke and Cole. Their defence has improved with the return of King, but I'm not quite sure it's good enough, nor am I sure about Robinson.

In conclusion, I expect United and Chelsea to be battling it out all season. It won't surprise me to see Arsenal there all season, but I think they could fade off near the end. It would be somewhat surprising to see Liverpool there all season. It would shock me to see Spurs there all season, but anythings possible. I think if Arsenal or Liverpool don't perform, Spurs will nick their position for 4th place.
I think if Spurs can get ahead of one of them early, then the team will lose their motivation in the league cause they can't win it, and will start to drop points. This won't be helped by their concentration on the cups which they will inevitably do. Not quite sure if this is likely to happen, but I hope it does. It's really time somebody in the top 4 didn't get into the CL.

Headshot

also the african nations will effect teams like chelsea

DSB

Really don't rate Spurs. Robbie Keane really just isn't a good player. Hit a bit of form last season but he is nothing special at all. Liverpool will probably suffer in the league as usual due to Benitez's tactic of changing his team every week stopping the team get any rhythm and hence consistency. Arsenal will surprise alot of people who've been writing them off. But they'll probably end up about 8 or 9 points behind Man United and Chelsea. I'd still say it'll be those 2 up top again. I think Chelsea will steal it this time around. Peter Cech and John Terry are too irreplacable players for the side and they are defo worth about 20 points to the side between them. If they stay fit, Chelsea will rarely concede goals. Which around the Christmas area last season they conceded far too many without those 2.

~Rebel~

I think it'll be as you were for the top 4 at the finish, but a lot closer then last year. With the African nations this year guaranteeing the loss of 2 of chelseas best, its a massive boost for United. Even gives Pool a chance to usurp second, if chelsea sutter enough.

smemon

Arsenal will be playing for 4th spot, they're out of it already.

Liverpool have improved, Torres is an excellent player, but they need more than 3 players if they're to go after Utd and Chelsea (Gerrard, Carragher, Torres).

Chelsea haven't added much over the summer, but lets be honest, they don't need a whole lot more. Getting rid of a few ego's is what they need.

Utd are bigger and better than ever before.. last season, injuries/suspensions hit them a bit and the likes of o'shea and fletcher were stop gap solutions. The additions of Nani and Anderson, plus Hargreaves, possibly Tevez are going to add even more fire power to an already flair side.

Provided Vidic and Neville don't get injured, i think it's another title for Utd. Yes, Utd have bought big, just like Chelsea did last summer but the difference is that Utd have bought young, hungry players with their careers ahead of them.

Tusky

smemon wrote:

Arsenal will be playing for 4th spot, they're out of it already.

Liverpool have improved, Torres is an excellent player, but they need more than 3 players if they're to go after Utd and Chelsea (Gerrard, Carragher, Torres).

I think this wins the most mind numbingly idiotic post of the week. What do yea think ?

Tusky

Tusky wrote:

I think this wins the most mind numbingly idiotic post of the week. What do yea think ?

Gotta agree. Arsenal will be close. And he forgot to mention Alonso and Mascherano who are also huge players for Liverpool

marco_polo

smemon wrote:

Liverpool have improved, Torres is an excellent player, but they need more than 3 players if they're to go after Utd and Chelsea (Gerrard, Carragher, Torres).

What about Macherano, Alonso, Reina, Finnan Agger, Riise, Crouch, Babel, Kuyt. Hardly the lineup for a donkey derby in all fairness.

Tusky wrote:

I think this wins the most mind numbingly idiotic post of the week. What do yea think ?

+1 Agreed.

Chelsea and united are undeniably the two front runners for honours at the end of the season. But I feel that Liverpool will be much improved next season and won't be too far away come May. It would be foolish to dismiss Arsenal although there is an onus on the younger players to really step up to the mark now that TH14 is gone. Spurs will be a match for anyone on their day but I don't think they have the midfield quality or the squad depth to break into the top 4.

millersangel

millersangel wrote:

(although his mind games usually involve putting down opposition, dont they?!?)

No. If he were to say "Chelsea, Liverpool and Arsenal are useless, we'll walk it" he'd be appliyng extra pressure to United while taking pressure off the other 3. What he said spreads the pressure and guards against complacency from United players, if thats what was intended.


I think he's right anyway. I think Liverpool and Arsenal have improved their 1st 11 while United and Chelsea have added to their squads to itll be close.

therecklessone

DSB wrote:

Really don't rate Spurs. Robbie Keane really just isn't a good player. Hit a bit of form last season but he is nothing special at all.

22 goals/44 apps 2006/07
16 goals/38 apps 2005/06

Premier League only

2006/07:

Goals: 11
Shots on goal: 19
Shots/goal: 2.38
Minutes per goal: 165mins
Avg goals/game: 0.41
Pens taken/scored: 3

2005/06:

Goals: 16
Shots on goal: 40
Shots/goal: 3.08
Minutes per goal: 153mins
Avg goals/game: 0.44
Pens taken/scored: 4/3

Whatever about one's assessment of Tottenham's chances this coming season, "Robbie Keane really just isn't a good player" is quite frankly nonsense.

Mr Alan

totally agree.

Alonso, Kuyt, Finnan, Agger, Mascherano, Reina,
even Sissoko, Crouch et all.

Edit: should've quoted really! but i'm talking about the idiotic post above as opposed to Robbie Keane!

PHB

Totally agree about Keane, he's finally reaching his potential.

To say Liverpool are a team of three players is just silly. To write off Arsenal is just silly. I really gotta ask ya, last season it was very tight between Arsenal and Liverpool, what's really changed that much?

Mr Alan

PHB wrote:

Totally agree about Keane, he's finally reaching his potential.

To say Liverpool are a team of three players is just silly. To write off Arsenal is just silly. I really gotta ask ya, last season it was very tight between Arsenal and Liverpool, what's really changed that much?

Well as i siad you before - the season before last, Liverpool finished 1 point behind United. Then Utd got Carrick (only signing i think??) and the next year they won the premiership fairly comfortably. Those kind of improvements aren't reserved for Utd only.

All Utd did differently, was play to their potential. If Liverpool do that (remember Alonso,Gerrard and strikers didn't have good seasons last year), they can be there or there abouts.

You honestly trying to tell me you don't think a team containing the likes of Reina, Carragher, Agger, Alonso, Gerrard, Mascherano and Torres can win the league?

If you are, well, to put it mildly..... i disagree.

millersangel

millersangel wrote:

Well as i siad you before - the season before last, Liverpool finished 1 point behind United. Then Utd got Carrick (only signing i think??) and the next year they won the premiership fairly comfortably. Those kind of improvements aren't reserved for Utd only.

All Utd did differently, was play to their potential. If Liverpool do that (remember Alonso,Gerrard and strikers didn't have good seasons last year), they can be there or there abouts.

You honestly trying to tell me you don't think a team containing the likes of Reina, Carragher, Agger, Alonso, Gerrard, Mascherano and Torres can win the league?

If you are, well, to put it mildly..... i disagree.

The emergence of Ronaldo playing to his true abilities, Scholes returned from injury and Vidic and Evra settled in and made those positions their own. Also van Nistelrooy left and we changed our style of play as a result. Tales more than just new signings to improve and make a team.

Also if Rooney plays to his full ability next season and we dont lose 6 of our 8 defenders at the same time we could be stronger.



Its gonna be close and only time will tell, we can argue till the cows come home but it wont change anything, cant wait for the season to kick off!!

Mr Alan

Nei do you just disagree with me for the sake of it?!

Notice the players i mentioned from Liverpool, only Torres is a new signing.

I'm talking about players playing to their full ability, like Ronaldo did for United last year, like Vidic. All i'm saying is that if Gerrard, Alonso, Kuyt, Torres play to their full abilities, they can win the league. i have no doubt about that.

As for injuries, i won't deny United had it bad at times last year, but you coped. Any title winning team is gonna need to.
(if i'm not mistaken for a few weeks last year, Gerrard was the only centre midfielder Liverpool had fit?)

marco_polo

PHB wrote:

Totally agree about Keane, he's finally reaching his potential.

To say Liverpool are a team of three players is just silly. To write off Arsenal is just silly. I really gotta ask ya, last season it was very tight between Arsenal and Liverpool, what's really changed that much?

Of course the league table never lies but I genuinely don't believe that Liverpool and Arsenal are really 20-25 points behind Man U and Chelsea (Can't remember the exact gap have erased it from my mind already). Not really sure why but Liverpool had an extremely bad start to the season last year and never recovered from it, where as Arsenal were unbelievably inconsistent the whole way through, so both were out of the running after 10-15 games. If they can stop that sort of a gap developing this season then they could get alot closer.

Liverpool have added Mascherano (first full season), Babel, Voronin and Torres to the squad. I think you made a point in some thread earlier that liverpool lack motivation in the smaller games (Could have been someone else ). I think it is more that for Liverpool to win games the team as a whole has to be playing well, they lacked match winners last season (in the mould of Rooney, Ronaldo, Drogba) who can get you a goal even when the whole team is playng badly. This can be the difference between a 0-0 away at Sheffield United/Wigan etc and a 1-0 win. Those dropped points really add up over the course of a season. Hopefully Torres and Babel can go some way towards addressing this problem.

Arsenal haven't really added much to the squad apart from that defender from Auxerre and Da Silva. Their scope from improvement comes mainly from within the squad, and Wenger will be hoping the likes of Dennilson, Fabregas, Van Persie et al will keep improving and that Hleb and Rosicky will have settled in better in their second season.

Deleted User wrote:

Its gonna be close and only time will tell, we can argue till the cows come home but it wont change anything, cant wait for the season to kick off!!

But arguing is fun, makes work go much more quickly

event

PHB wrote:

I really gotta ask ya, last season it was very tight between Arsenal and Liverpool, what's really changed that much?

arsenal had a good few injuries

liverpool had barely any

Roddy23

Hleb and Rosicky will have settled in better in their second season.

Helb's third season, believe me its been torture.

millersangel

millersangel wrote:

Neil do you just disagree with me for the sake of it?!

Sometime yes!!

millersangel wrote:

Notice the players i mentioned from Liverpool, only Torres is a new signing.

I'm talking about players playing to their full ability, like Ronaldo did for United last year, like Vidic. All i'm saying is that if Gerrard, Alonso, Kuyt, Torres play to their full abilities, they can win the league. i have no doubt about that.

As for injuries, i won't deny United had it bad at times last year, but you coped. Any title winning team is gonna need to.
(if i'm not mistaken for a few weeks last year, Gerrard was the only centre midfielder Liverpool had fit?)

I agree. Stay injury free and u have a very good chance, never said u didnt. I was just pointin out to ya that there was a bigger difference between United 05/06 and United 06/07 than the signing of Michael Carrick (and Larsson!).

Mr Alan

But i pointed out that the reason United won the league was not down to the signing of Carrick!!?!?

millersangel

millersangel wrote:

But i pointed out that the reason United won the league was not down to the signing of Carrick!!?!?

Sorry dude, its been so busy in here Ive been speed readin these posts!!! But yea pretty much spot on there.

marco_polo

Roddy23 wrote:

Helb's third season, believe me its been torture.

Oh well in that case better write him off so

PHB

millersangel wrote:

But i pointed out that the reason United won the league was not down to the signing of Carrick!!?!?

That's way way way too simplistic. Look at last season and the season before

Saha and Ronaldo played much better last season than before. Why?
Evra and Vidic took a season to settle in
Scholes was injured the season before and returned from injury

Neville, Ferdinand, Scholes, Rooney, Saha, Giggs all played to their normal potential.

The reason that Ronaldo and Saha played so much better was the radical, massive move, of selling Van Nist. Fergie sold Van Nist and changed the way United played completely. There was a total change in how United play, from semi-defensive to attacking. There has been no such change in how Liverpool play, except that they have better players than before in Torres and Benayoun.

So last season, what happened was,
Sold Van Nist making the attack 50 times more fulid
Carrick was added solving a gaping hole in United's team
Scholes returned from injury
Evra and Vidic had adjusted after a season in England
The rest of the squad played to their potential.

Fergie made huge huge changes despite only selling one player and bringing in one player.

Are all of those things, or similar things, gona happen to Liverpool?

if Gerrard, Alonso, Kuyt, Torres play to their full abilities, they can win the league. i have no doubt about that.

Maybe so, but why would they? What's changed? Alonso will be playing in the exact same system as last year, why the radical improvement? Same with Gerrard? Why is Gerrard suddenly going to start performing in the random league games he needs to?

This for me is the big difference between Arsenal and Liverpool. Arsenal, when they start playing well, are unstoppable. This is not the same for Liverpool. Liverpool can beat any team on their day, but more accurately, Liverpool can beat any team that attacks them. If a team sits back and defends, Liverpool have huge huge problems in breaking them down. Maybe Torres can score a couple of wonder goals (although most foreign players need a season to settle) but the team has to be playing well, for them first to have a bad game. What has happened that's gona make this suddenly better? Torres is a huge addition, no doubt about it, but is it enough to close a gap, considering that United have the huge addition of Hargreaves and Chelsea have the huge addition of Malouda? Not so sure.

Also, something that is constantly ignored,

arsenal had a good few injuries

liverpool had barely any

smemon

Deleted User wrote:

Gotta agree. Arsenal will be close. And he forgot to mention Alonso and Mascherano who are also huge players for Liverpool

There's a difference between huge players and huge characters.

Carragher and Gerrard have the steel required to win a title. The rest crumble when the pressure if off. That's Liverpool's problem. They can beat or draw with the big guns (hence their champions league runs).

But they don't have the focus or clinical finishing to nick a 1-0 away from home on a cold, winters night against relegation contenders.

Terry has steel, Vidic has it. These guys are born winners. Even if they don't perform they inspire others around them.

The premiership has become saturated with cheap foreign imports, most have skill but no steel, no mental toughness.

Down through the years, every winning side has had a spine of steel.

Terry, Vieira, Keane, Vidic, Shearer, Henry, Ronaldo - these guys are huge characters and lead by example and you need 4 or 5 in side.

Gerrard and Carragher do that with Liverpool but it's not enough. Torres will more than likely be a success, he's a quality player.

I don't think any neutral fan realistically expects Arsenal or Liverpool to break Utd and Chelsea.

We hear Liverpool fans every year saying this will be our year.. I know Utd fans were guilty of it for the last couple of years but that's because Utd had a genuine chance :rolleyes:

Arguing about finishing 2nd or 3rd doesn't matter, nobody cares. It's no.1 spot that counts and Liverpool haven't challenged for that in years. As people have pointed out, one player can't chance all that. Liverpool need at least 2 more players.

Raskolnikov

Ferguson is wrong. Arsenal don't have the strength in depth to challenge for the title. If Fabregas or Van Persie get injured, then the title hunt for the Arsenal is over.

Liverpool on the otherhand have enormously improved in this regard.

Bellamy Out - Torres In
Fowler Out - Voronin In
Zenden Out - Babel In
Luis Garcia Out - Benayoun In

Every single one of these transfers is an improvement. Liverpool may not win the league, but the gap is going to be closed down significantly.

PHB

If Fabregas or Van Persie get injured, then the title hunt for the Arsenal is over.

If Carragher or Torres get injured, then the title hunt for Liverpool is already over. Liverpool and Arsenal still have a weak squad in some areas that can't survive hits to their key players.

~Rebel~

smemon wrote:

Terry, Vieira, Keane, Vidic, Shearer, Henry, Ronaldo - these guys are huge characters and lead by example and you need 4 or 5 in side.

Gerrard and Carragher do that with Liverpool but it's not enough. Torres will more than likely be a success, he's a quality player.

This as has been mentioned on the Liverpool thread is most likely the reason for the signings Rafa has made. His signings, bar Babel and Voronin are leaders. Lucas Leiva, Benayoun and Torres are all captains. Lucas and Yossi internationally and Torres for club, though Gremio have really relied on Lucas and Carlos Eduardo for inspiration this season so its more then just international youth in his case as a leader role really. I think Rafa wants to instill this kind of "taking the game by the scruff of the neck" you talk about with the 4 or 5 characters in a side point. Its very true and very correct and i think this is the idea. Torres Lucas and Benayoun are already used to having to pull something special out of the bag to get the win, be it the killer pass or the special goal, but its seems very purposeful that Rafa has been recruiting this type of player. Babel then is the wild card type player who can produce a moment of magic to get something (like C.Ronaldo was before last year), while Voronin is just a good player for free!

I don't think any neutral fan realistically expects Arsenal or Liverpool to break Utd and Chelsea.

We hear Liverpool fans every year saying this will be our year.. I know Utd fans were guilty of it for the last couple of years but that's because Utd had a genuine chance :rolleyes:

Thats a phrase i really hate. Its also not really relevant to here, because i haven't seen many people on the pool thread or here saying "This is our year". Theres been some hopeful cautiously optimistic comments but thats as close as its been. This whole its our year thing is more of a cliche at this stage. Myself, and i would imagine most pool fans, expect it to be "as you were" for the final placings, but that it will be much closer. Thats all im realistically hoping for at this stage anyway, just to bridge the gap so we're within shouting distance at the final stretch. There is always the chance Chelsea or Man U will stutter (more likely Chelsea with the African Nations so Essien and Drogba will be out for a good while), but im sure most accept that this is just a chance. Theoretically we have the players to win it, but probably just lack the consistancy and experiance. I think 08/09 will be the real push. I for one am very happy with how things have progressed since Rafa took over. Im not expecting miracles, just improvement.