What is reasonable?

LegacyUser

Here is a question.
Briefly, two years ago a relation died and left his only asset (a house) to be shared equally among his children. There was a will and nominated executor. Shortly after the death, one of the children moved back in to the house and has remained there ever since (at no cost).
Since then, hints have been dropped by other family members to the effect that this person should now 'move on', let the house be liquidated and essentially provide their own accomodation ath their own cost. I know that three of the beneficiaries of the will could really do with the money.
Despite the hints, this person has not made any real effort to progress the business and is leading a very comfortable lifestyle - frequent breaks away - active social life etc.
Nobody in the family wants conflict, the occupant of the house is avoiding family members and 'boxing clever'.
As an observer (not a beneficiary) I can see this situation leading to a serious conflict among the family in the long term unless sorted now. One of the beneficiaries asked me for advice. I interpret this situation as an example of an act of kindness being exploited as a weakness and reflects badly on the forty-something 'child' that currently occupies the house.
What do you think?

vorbis

sounds like its going to end up with lawyers involved. I'd tell the other siblings to get it sorted asap. The guy in the house could be aiming for squatters rights out of this.

Zulu

If the sibling will not move, they pay rent. Simple.
Find the rental value of the house, say €2000 per month. This get's paid into a rental account.
Divide rent by the number of Siblings, say 4. Each sibling earns €500 per month rent. Pay back say €50 per month into upkeep, thus each sibling draws back rental income of €450 per month.
Fair is fair.

tbh

milkerman wrote:

I interpret this situation as an example of an act of kindness being exploited as a weakness and reflects badly on the forty-something 'child' that currently occupies the house.
What do you think?

I think that any obligation the relatives had to treat the occupier with a bit of respect and compassion went out the window when the occupier failed to make any effort to respond to the hints or make any plans. If it were me, I'd just be blunt - Either the occupier starts paying the other owners, or the house gets put up for sale.

biko

Sell the house.
Rest of the children agree on a date and put the house up. Then inform the tenant the house is available to buy if they like to remain in it.

davyjose

Who is the executor? Like it or not, they agreed to undertake the role of ensuring that the will gets sorted. If they cannot do this, then they are responsible. Get on to the executor and tell them this is unacceptable.

Gumbyman

Before getting lawyers involved organise a sit down, a civil meeting between the parties. Don't be harsh, just say something along the lines that "the time has come to decide what needs to be done with the house". At the meeting he will be cornered and instead of whispers and hints it can be set out what the majority want to do with the property. If he has any objections then try to talk through them. If he is being obstinate and impossible then get layers involved - and fast.

PeakOutput

whats reasonable is that they do not try and kick up a fuss about the house being sold.....the procedes are then split evenly.............if he would like to purchase the house from the others than a reductionin the market value of some sort would also be reasonable as a sort of token gesture but other than that he should be put in his place as soon as possible

edit; in as nice but firm a way as possible

muppetkiller

Well you offer the house to the current occupant at the current market value minus their share and if that's not acceptable you go talk to your solicitor.

The house does not belong to this person and they have no right to interfere with the sale. Or like Zulu said charge Rent.

rebel.ranter

Just do whatever you can do to get it soted before the Solicitors get involved. If it gets messy the Solicitors normally make a lot of money at all your expense.

Maple

Organise a meeting between the family. Everybody sit down and get it all out in the open, none of this hinting rubbish. If this doesn't work, then get the solicitors involved.

Mighty_Mouse

Agree with the above. Whats this hinting craic?:eek:
Family meetins to decide what to do with the house.
All remaining family members sit-down (minus spouses & other 3rd parties) and discuss legal arrangments.
1 brother or sister (maybe eldest & youngest) take charge of organising valuations, solicitors, auctioneers etc etc

The house is sold at market value and distributed accordingly.
Offer it to current occupier at cmv less his share (or less potential auctioneers fees or slight discount for keeping it in the family)

Carrigart Exile

milkerman wrote:

Here is a question.
Briefly, two years ago a relation died and left his only asset (a house) to be shared equally among his children. There was a will and nominated executor. Shortly after the death, one of the children moved back in to the house and has remained there ever since (at no cost).
Since then, hints have been dropped by other family members to the effect that this person should now 'move on', let the house be liquidated and essentially provide their own accomodation ath their own cost. I know that three of the beneficiaries of the will could really do with the money.
Despite the hints, this person has not made any real effort to progress the business and is leading a very comfortable lifestyle - frequent breaks away - active social life etc.
Nobody in the family wants conflict, the occupant of the house is avoiding family members and 'boxing clever'.
As an observer (not a beneficiary) I can see this situation leading to a serious conflict among the family in the long term unless sorted now. One of the beneficiaries asked me for advice. I interpret this situation as an example of an act of kindness being exploited as a weakness and reflects badly on the forty-something 'child' that currently occupies the house.
What do you think?

The executor of the will should now take out a division and sale of the property to meet the requirements of teh will. Indeed the executor to avoid conflict should instruct a lawyer to act on their behalf.

eamonnq

All the beneficiaries should say that they want to move back into the house as well!! Obviously bringing any offspring, spouses, partners, significant others etc. with them!!

stepbar

You can either do the following

A) Offer to buy him / her out.
Allow him / her to buy you all out.
and / or
Make him / her pay rent at the market price until which time A) or is completed.

I know one family who are going through this and it has taken 13 years to get to the stage where one person is ready to buy out the members of the family who no longer live there. You dont want that happening.

PeakOutput

money does crazy things to people.........be happy there was a will it should be fairly simply sorted out once you are firm with the person living there

milkerman

Incidentally, what are the duties and responsibilities of the executor? He might well be setting himself up for litigation if things were to really go pear shaped.

John Mason

was a right to residence given to anyone in the Will? if the relative does not want to live, he has to the option to buy the other members of the estate out. ligitation can cost thousand and go on for years and the legal fees may be in excess of the value of the house. i would suggest a meeting with the family solicitor to discuss options and stop dropping hints and tell the current resident he MUST leave

Carrigart Exile

milkerman wrote:

Incidentally, what are the duties and responsibilities of the executor? He might well be setting himself up for litigation if things were to really go pear shaped.

The executor of the will should instruct a solicitor to act on his behalf.

paulie.walnuts

"Sell the house.
Rest of the children agree on a date and put the house up. Then inform the tenant the house is available to buy if they like to remain in it."

Spot on there.

MysticalSoul

Heya,

It sounds to me as if a mediator would be best to sit in with any discussions. As the person moved into the house and the death, he/she is not entitled to reside there unless he/she does what has already been suggested.

Sadly, even when there are Wills, it causes so much rift in the family. The other members of the family do need to be stronger though, as if they let it carry on, I imagine resentment will build up gradually over time.

The_Conductor

As pointed out earlier in this thread- it is the job of the executor of the will to ensure that the wishes in the will that he/she agreed to see to, are seen to.

Your friend/family member, as a beneficiary of the will, is perfectly entitled to approach the executor, either alone or in conjunction with other family members, in order to ensure that the duties of the executor are discharged.

If the executor is unable to discharge their duties, they should not have agreed to become executor in the first place, and should now consult as to how to ensure that these duties are fulfilled.

sodrisc

How is not getting a solicitor involved an intelligent move? These people have proven themselves unable to act on their own as they 'don't want to cause conflict'. A solicitor is going to have to be instructed to carry out the sale of the house anyway. Look at it this way - as things stand, this could drag on indefinitely, with the loss of rental income and sale proceeds to all the other beneficiaries. How many thousands will be the cost of lost rental income/lost investment opportunities of the other beneficiaries while this remains unresolved? At least a solicitor is an independent person who is not emotionally involved in the matter and solicitors generally resolve a majority of conflicts without needing to go to court.

milkerman

The sometimes unusual thing about common sense is that is often all too rare.
I have found out more about the scenario and to my eyes the female occupant is using emotional blackmail on her brothers & sister, hence their reticence to deal with the situation.
You could become very cynical about human relationships when you look at things like this.

Electric

Why don't the other family members force a sale of the house?

If the executor has done his job properly and transferred ownership of the property into the 3 names, then anyone of the owners can force a sale of their share of the property.

If the occupant wishes to remain in the house then they will either have to buy this share (which might make things tricky for the other owner who would now be a minority holder).

It seems like this would be the easiest option, if the occupant is using emotional blackmail then it's unlikely that they are going to pay rent or that the other owners will be able to force them to pay rent.

Was the occupant given a life tenancy in the will i.e. under the terms of the will are they allowed to live there for the rest of their lives?

milkerman

Nah, no tenancy of any type was provided for.
The lady actually owns another house in the sticks somewhere, nice house by all accounts. She left her hubby last year for some other bloke and he is now a regular visitor in her new abode.
The more I hear the worse it gets. Am opting out now. This sort of thing gets my goat up!