Creationism - what have we learned?

Scofflaw

It seems many of us feel that Richard Dawkins could do better in debate....and that perhaps a spell on the Creationism thread here might do him some good.

What about us? What, if anything, have we learned from the Creationism thread (and the other brushfire scuffles around these fora)?

What tips would you have for debating against Creationists? Any particular questions that should be asked?

inquisitively,
Scofflaw

MooseJam

I've learned that dinosaurs were around after the flood, thats right t-rex and man were alive at the same time

lookinforpicnic

I'm afraid, the only thing I've learned (from lurking about) is that I can only tolerate that tread for ten minutes at most before I become incredibly frustrated and confused...and any time i think of posting I just end up saying to myself "where do you start?" and quickly leave before I even begin to think myself into their shoes, and then i ban myself from looking at that tread again! It just frustrates me so much...I don't know where ye regular posters over there get the patience. I do enjoy ye're posts very much though but the bits in between Should be interesting to hear what ye have learnt from that crazy thread. Get some ammo for the real world.

Asiaprod

Scofflaw wrote:

What tips would you have for debating against Creationists? Any particular questions that should be asked?

Stick to science-based arguments, there is no logic there. Dinosaurs on the ark....honestly!

Zillah

I have learned that a huge percentage of the human race are completely insane.

Hivemind187

claim to be god.

You heard me. Claim to be god.

Faith, particularly that in creationism, requires unquestioning belief in a creator who is inscrutable and whose purposes and intents are unknowable.

BY there own argument they cannot disprove you are God by any other means than a denial of faith.

... it makes a real mess for them.

Zombrex

Scofflaw wrote:

It seems many of us feel that Richard Dawkins could do better in debate....and that perhaps a spell on the Creationism thread here might do him some good.

What about us? What, if anything, have we learned from the Creationism thread (and the other brushfire scuffles around these fora)?

What tips would you have for debating against Creationists? Any particular questions that should be asked?

inquisitively,
Scofflaw

I've learnt that you are never going to convince the Creationist that they are wrong because they aren't interested in science or truth or discovery, they are interested in convincing themselves that their particular religious faith is not being contradicted by science, the importance of which they grudgingly seem to accept.

The best one can hope to achieve is to produce such ridiculous explanations from a Creationists (plankton feeding lions who live at the top of mountains during ice ages) that their entire argument is seen as nonsense by anyone observing the debate.

But again even people who would consider themselves rational theists seem to be swallowed in by this stuff, as BrianC's recent comments that JC and Wolfsbane provide a different scientific perspective on the debate of the origin of life, seems to demonstrate.

At the end of the day it comes down to what people themselves are prepared to accept. If someone is not prepared to accept that Genesis is not literal then it seems that so long as they have something to hold on to, no matter how nonsensical or ridiculous, they will hold on to it and ignore the rest of the discussion lest it dislodge them from this comfort zone.

rockbeer

From my one fleeting visit to the creationist thread I've learned that life's too short.

Now if I could just figure out a way to get paid for hanging out there...

Tar.Aldarion

*To not bother with most of them, only talk to the rational few that actually think for themselves.
*That I don't have to write a long sciency post because son_goku is around
*Just how much upbringing affects most humans and thus how like other animals we are.
*Most people have a deep fear in them that I do not seem to share for some reason.
*JC is actually Jesus Christ
*How very little most people know about anything.
*That we humans have a long way to go before we can call ourselves learned.
Can we climb this mountain,I don't know, higher now than ever before.
*No man ever believes that the Bible means what it says; he is always convinced that it says what he means.

koneko

I have learned that bone structures being similar can prove some animals are ACTUALLY THE SAME (Rhinos are dinosaurs, right?), but they conveniently ignore this "logic" when it comes to other species' bone structures (humans and apes).

5uspect

Its not worth arguing with creationists as they only want to start an argument to validate their nutty ideas to the rest of the world in some weird way.

I haven't learned my lesson tho.

JimiTime

I've learned that some smart people can continue to argue with someone they consider 'an idiot'. I mean come on guys, who's the fool? The way you talk about JC, he might as well be saying the world is flat. If someone actually said the world was flat and was coming up with points to 'prove' this, would you still be going for 300 pages? I can't see a difference. You are wholly convinced that JC's arguements are as ludicrous, yet you continue in this venture. I wouldn't call it patience at all:p

5uspect

JimiTime wrote:

I've learned that some smart people can continue to argue with someone they consider 'an idiot'. I mean come on guys, who's the fool? The way you talk about JC, he might as well be saying the world is flat. If someone actually said the world was flat and was coming up with points to 'prove' this, would you still be going for 300 pages? I can't see a difference. You are wholly convinced that JC's arguements are as ludicrous, yet you continue in this venture. I wouldn't call it patience at all:p

The point is to point out to other readers that J C is lying. He misrepresents science and is quite rightly rebuked for it.
He is something of a captive creationist on public exhibit for the education of the world (i.e. boards readers).

stevejazzx

That arugments go around in circles and we never get anywhere.
The ingenius (for all the wrong reasons) phrase 'muck to man'.
The general nuttiness of christians, their tendency to withdraw from difficult arguments even with regular members. Their cowardice at trying to resolve the christian forum into a christian only forum, so the blind truly can lead the blind without any interference. Their incessant ability to take offence where none was warranted and their rigtheouness at posters who lose their patience. Most worringly of all though their ignorance (apart from a distinguished few) of their own religon, it's texts and history.

lookinforpicnic

JimiTime wrote:

I've learned that some smart people can continue to argue with someone they consider 'an idiot'. I mean come on guys, who's the fool? The way you talk about JC, he might as well be saying the world is flat. If someone actually said the world was flat and was coming up with points to 'prove' this, would you still be going for 300 pages? I can't see a difference. You are wholly convinced that JC's arguements are as ludicrous, yet you continue in this venture. I wouldn't call it patience at all:p

Well, it is interesting to see the extreme side of the delusional behaviour that religion can engender, as an atheist (probably speaking for most guys around here) we see all religious people as ultimately deluded, and observing the delusional behaviour of anyone who believes in creationism ultimately can shed some light on the more moderate delusions of the average religious person. So arguing with the likes of JC (even though i don't partake myself) isn't in vain.

JimiTime

5uspect wrote:

The point is to point out to other readers that J C is lying. He misrepresents science and is quite rightly rebuked for it.
He is something of a captive creationist on public exhibit for the education of the world (i.e. boards readers).

Hmmm. If you didn't reply, that thread would have disappeared long ago. Then your concern for the people looking in need not apply. I'm not so sure if everyone is replying for the good of mankind. At the end of the day, you have all basically said he hasn't a clue, but you feel his points are important enough to answer

Tar.Aldarion

I don't feel that they are. Apart from a few curt, short posts I have said nothing. There is no point in leading infants that will just say, 'god did it', to every argument you make - J C.

I see no point posting in that thread apart from the fun of it I imagine.

barfizz

Ask them the following:

If every thing in the universe was created, who created god.

If there is a god why was he so malicious in creating disease and hunger, does he despise people that much.

why did he create people and societies that never even heard of him, for so long people worshiped anything that was bright, shiny or they were unable to understand.

when you think about it most of us in this country come from the Judea religion (Jew, Christian, Muslim) yet we only account for a minority of the whole population of the planet, why did he waste his time creating the rest of the hell fodder, or does he want the devil to have more souls than him.

5uspect

JimiTime wrote:

Hmmm. If you didn't reply, that thread would have disappeared long ago. Then your concern for the people looking in need not apply. I'm not so sure if everyone is replying for the good of mankind. At the end of the day, you have all basically said he hasn't a clue, but you feel his points are important enough to answer

What about our concern for those reading the Christianity Forum in general?:D
I did stop posting there for a long time as I was sick of listening to him I only began posting there recently when there were some new posters there.

It has descended into something of a farce tho.

JimiTime

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

I see no point posting in that thread apart from the fun of it I imagine.

which is really what I'm saying. All this 'I post there to out JC's lies' or 'So that a new reader can see it for what it is', is nonsense IMO. I don't believe people post there out of concern for others, in case they're taken in by JC etc. If that was the case, they would have let that thread die long ago.

Dades

stevejazzx wrote:

The general nuttiness of christians, their tendency to withdraw from difficult arguments even with regular members. Their cowardice at trying to resolve the christian forum into a christian only forum, so the blind truly can lead the blind without any interference. Their incessant ability to take offence where none was warranted and their rigtheouness at posters who lose their patience. Most worringly of all though their ignorance (apart from a distinguished few) of their own religon, it's texts and history.

stevejazzx, that's too much of a damning generalisation for my liking. Whatever about the creationism thread, here isn't the place for rants about a whole forum and it's members, even if you feel you can't take your arguments over to Christianity.
Remember the charter if you would.

Ciaran500

Scofflaw wrote:

What tips would you have for debating against Creationists?

Don't bother, they are completely close minded and will twist any fact no matter how petty to fit their ideas. Once they have been disproven beyond any doubt they just move on to another point like nothing happened and continue.


Its just like arguing with a 911 "truther" :rolleyes:

JimiTime

5uspect wrote:

What about our concern for those reading the Christianity Forum in general?:D

Awww. Didn't know ye cared:D

Tim Robbins

JimiTime wrote:

Awww. Didn't know ye cared:D

The creationist thread is one of the longest running threads on boards.ie. There are a few longer ones but they aren't actually arguing just people randomly saying things.
I don't think anybody has had a major change of mind on that thread so one would wonder what the point has been alright.

Hivemind187

Tim Robbins wrote:

The creationist thread is one of the longest running threads on boards.ie. There are a few longer ones but they aren't actually arguing just people randomly saying things.
I don't think anybody has had a major change of mind on that thread so one would wonder what the point has been alright.

I changed my mind.

I used to believe that Creationists had a considered opinion that should be respected, however barking mad it might seem to those who base their position on rationalism and logic.

I no longer believe this.

I now believe that Creationists are deliberatly blinding themselves to the evidence and have every intention that we should be coerced into doing the same.

5uspect

JimiTime wrote:

Awww. Didn't know ye cared:D

Of course we do.
Think of the thread as our Iraq!

JimiTime

5uspect wrote:

Think of the thread as our Iraq!

Brilliant!

Galvasean

I have learned that i am a glutton for punishment and I often let my morbid curiosity get the better of me.
I'll probably post in that thread in the next 5 or 10 minutes

Tim Robbins

Hivemind187 wrote:

I changed my mind.

I used to believe that Creationists had a considered opinion that should be respected, however barking mad it might seem to those who base their position on rationalism and logic.

I no longer believe this.

I now believe that Creationists are deliberatly blinding themselves to the evidence and have every intention that we should be coerced into doing the same.

I can't believe that those Christians actually go into a public forum and get their opinions disected and torn apart. Most Christians stay in tiny little cosy clubs and avoid all enviroments where their opinions are challenged.

I do think J C though is working for some Creationist propaganda and is testing his propaganda out in that thread.

I can't understand how anyone with a remote interest in Science can push creationism or ID. My only guess is that they are trying to exploit and make money out of a huge market of suckers who will buy this nonsense, in the same way as faith healers also try to exploit and make money out of gullible people.

Scofflaw

JimiTime wrote:

which is really what I'm saying. All this 'I post there to out JC's lies' or 'So that a new reader can see it for what it is', is nonsense IMO. I don't believe people post there out of concern for others, in case they're taken in by JC etc. If that was the case, they would have let that thread die long ago.

Actually, the thread does a good job (in my opinion) of showing how ridiculous the Creationist 'case' is, and JC is a major player in that.

There are other factors that keep one posting (it's nice to have a few-holds-barred discussion thread, for example), but the above is probably the strongest motivation.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Dave!

I've learned that atheists are some of the most patient people in the world.