Non National entitlements

Zombrex

Delboy05 wrote:

did'nt actually use any figures!!!!

Well yes, facts and figures can get in the way of good hyperbole. Best to avoid them :rolleyes:

BTW "less than a thousand" is a figure.

Delboy05 wrote:

Every time a large deportation takes place, it makes the newspapers. Bar the recent Roma debacle, when was the last deportation to Nigeria, for example, that you heard of?

That is rather cyclical logic.

Deportations will always make the newspapers -> I read all the news papers -> if I don't see an article about deportations -> they aren't taking place.

Have you considered that these deportations do take place, they just either don't make the paper or you just haven't heard about them? As you say the big deportations make the news, but most deportations aren't big.

Delboy05 wrote:

2,268 is a very small number of deportations when you consider that we've had 50-60,000 asylum claims at least since 1997, and the number of those unsuccessful at the 1st stage has been contanttly over the 90% mark.

It is a small figure if every unsuccessful asylum seeker had to be forcible deported from the country.

But the majority leave without assistance or intervention from the State. The rest disappear off the radar becoming illegals. Either way they are no longer the problem of the tax payer

Ekancone

Seanies32 wrote:

each country should have a right to put its own economic and social concerns first.

Exactly right.

ArthurDent

Seanies32 wrote:

each country should have a right to put its own economic and social concerns first.

daithifleming wrote:

Exactly right.

Right so you'll be joining the queue to hand back all the money we have received from Europe

Ekancone

ArthurDent wrote:

Right so you'll be joining the queue to hand back all the money we have received from Europe

All i said was that a country should be in control of their own affairs at all times. Its called sovereignty, look it up.

ArthurDent

daithifleming wrote:

All i said was that a country should be in control of their own affairs at all times. Its called sovereignty, look it up.

My bad - so not only will you be forming an orderly queue to hand back all the money we have received from the EU, but you'll also be top of the line demanding that we withdraw from Europe altogether - 'k :rolleyes:

Ekancone

ArthurDent wrote:

My bad - so not only will you be forming an orderly queue to hand back all the money we have received from the EU, but you'll also be top of the line demanding that we withdraw from Europe altogether - 'k :rolleyes:

Can you point out where i said we should withdraw from the EU? I cant seem to find it... hmmmm, where is it?


Or is this a failing attempt to pass yourself off as an intellectual?

ArthurDent

daithifleming wrote:

Can you point out where i said we should withdraw from the EU? I cant seem to find it... hmmmm, where is it?


Or is this a failing attempt to pass yourself off as an intellectual?

Easy there bud, lay off on personalising arguments - I was pointing out that we DON'T have full sovereignity anymore - we are also accountable to EU. And as EU members we don't have the right to exclusively put our own economic and social concerns first.

oscarBravo

daithifleming wrote:

Or is this a failing attempt to pass yourself off as an intellectual?

No more getting personal, please.

K-9

ArthurDent wrote:

Right so you'll be joining the queue to hand back all the money we have received from Europe

What, nobody forced the EU countries to give it to us?

The East European countries are benefitting the same way we did.

Why shouldn't we put our socioeconomic situation first?

You have a point on the EU but thats for another thread, and we have to consider it but we have sovereignity on this issue. We changed our system from 04, as was our right. No other EU country has allowed free entry either.

MadsL

No other EU country has allowed free entry either.

UK and Sweden are outside the EU are they...?

Zombrex

Seanies32 wrote:

Why shouldn't we put our socioeconomic situation first?

We did. Immigrate workers have been fuelling the economy for the last 10+ years because the economy was growing quicker than the work force could sustain it. (that is leaving aside the fact that immigration has also supported our public services such as health care, and also the service industry)

Seriously, where have people got this ridiculous idea that immigration has been harming our economy?

People seem to think that if it wasn't for immigration we would have an Irish person serving us in McDonalds or an Irish nurse in our hospitals. Quite the opposite is true, McDonalds wouldn't be there because they couldn't get staff (some might say this is a good result) and the hospital would be closed.

Our current economy wouldn't exist without immigration.

spurious

But it's more fun to say 'they' get free cars, mobiles and throwaway prams.
Durn you with your sensiblenessarianism.

K-9

MadsL wrote:

UK and Sweden are outside the EU are they...?

Was that not 04, and they have also changed?

I've yet to hear that any other EU country is different this time. 2004 those 2 countries and Ireland did accept without restrictions.

As far I am aware UK changed and as in many things that was a big reason why Ireland changed to.

I've heard from Prime Time and read in reputable papers that no country has put no restrictions on Romania and Bulgaria.

I'm not doubting you at all, just I've heard different from the meejia:D

If you can post a source that says different I'll agree whole heartedly.

K-9

Wicknight wrote:

We did. Immigrate workers have been fuelling the economy for the last 10+ years because the economy was growing quicker than the work force could sustain it. (that is leaving aside the fact that immigration has also supported our public services such as health care, and also the service industry)

Seriously, where have people got this ridiculous idea that immigration has been harming our economy?

People seem to think that if it wasn't for immigration we would have an Irish person serving us in McDonalds or an Irish nurse in our hospitals. Quite the opposite is true, McDonalds wouldn't be there because they couldn't get staff (some might say this is a good result) and the hospital would be closed.

Our current economy wouldn't exist without immigration.

Fully agreed and posted before on that. However socioeconomic circumstances have changed, especially since 04.

There are already reports of unrest and fighting between East European and Irish construction workers this year. The construction sector is laying off and will lay off alot more, and Irish workers are resenting the East Euoropean workers. Wrong? Yes, A concern for the country? yes.

The amount of foreign?:D people coming to Ireland is already decreasing this year. Polish, Slovakia etc. Probably word is getting back that work is not as easily available, especially in construction.

Just because it has worked for the last 10 years, does not mean it is going to work now. UnEmployment is forecasted to reach 6% next year. Most people here would have no objection with foreigners:D coming here to seek new opportunities, Jaysus the Irish did it for long enough, but does it mean we should have open borders?

Immigration has not harmed our economy or society, does that mean it won't happen in the future? Does it mean we will always have very little social problems with it? It's funny, people can have no bother with foreigners, then when people start getting laid off their job and they see foreign people still being employed, their opinion changes.

There is a danger of saying if we put restrictions on borders we are racist. If the economy gets weaker and we still encourage open borders are we actually, unintentionally, increasing tensions?

Completely disagreeable and unpc, but a realist concern.
Putting our economic and SOCIAL interests first in not a crime even if it may be nonpc. Why are other countries doing it? Just because you do something different to others doesn't mean its necessarily the right thing!

bonkey

Seanies32 wrote:

The amount of foreign?:D people coming to Ireland is already decreasing this year. Polish, Slovakia etc. Probably word is getting back that work is not as easily available, especially in construction.
...
Immigration has not harmed our economy or society, does that mean it won't happen in the future?

It would seem - by your own admission - that immigration is self-regulating to a large degree. When jobs were readily available, people came to take them. Now that they're not as available, fewer people come.

Does it mean we will always have very little social problems with it?

Social problems are entirely seperate to economic problems.

Right now, the biggest social problem we seem to have is the root cause of this thread - the lumping of all foreign nationals together, with a dash of misinformation, to basically conclude that because there are some asylum seekers who have the audacity to take their entitlements despite not being penniless themselves, that we need to be suspicious of all foreigners, espcially immigrants from within the EU.

Seriously....either we should seperate these various issues, or accept that our basic social problem is that so many Irish are simply hostile to foreign nationals and the realisation that being an island doesn't isolate us from the world any more.

There is a danger of saying if we put restrictions on borders we are racist.

That is a danger, yes. It doesn't mean that the accusations would be groundless though.

If the economy gets weaker and we still encourage open borders are we actually, unintentionally, increasing tensions?

Perhaps...but those tensions will almost certainly be increased by people who will seize on the opportunity to blame "the foreigners" for the ills of the nations. You've pointed out that as the jobs become scarcer, so do the immigrants seeking those jobs....so what, exactly, do we need to do about it?

Incidentally, the only thing we can do about it is remove ourselves from the EU. Non-EU immigrants are already subject to "non-open" borders. Do you really think that accession from the EU would help our economy???

Putting our economic and SOCIAL interests first in not a crime [/quote

It is while we remain a member of the EU.

Zombrex

Seanies32 wrote:

I've heard from Prime Time and read in reputable papers that no country has put no restrictions on Romania and Bulgaria.

The UK imposed restrictions on the Romanians saying that they would only let in 20,000. 8,000 actually came.

The whole point that has been missed with Romanian is the fact that it isn't Poland. Poland has high unemployment (14%) and a slow economy. Romania on the other hand has a pretty good economy, which is growing, and unemployment levels in line with the rest of Europe.

People in general don't leave their country to go find work some where else if they can get work at home. And they certainly don't leave on mass to become welfare scroungers (Sweden with the best welfare in Europe but not the best job market was relatively uneffected by enlargement)

The idea that western Europe would be swapped with Romanians (who most people confuse with the Roma gypsies anyway) was simply ill-informed scaremongering, praying on the idea that most UK and Irish consider Eastern Europe to be one big dirty country. Unfortunately the governments, in an effort to look tough, feel for this.

Seanies32 wrote:

There are already reports of unrest and fighting between East European and Irish construction workers this year. The construction sector is laying off and will lay off alot more, and Irish workers are resenting the East Euoropean workers. Wrong? Yes, A concern for the country? yes.

The construction industry is heading for an implosion. This has little to do with foreign workers and everything to do with the turn down of the economy. If I was a construction worker I would be doing a FAS information technology course right away.

In any down turning industry people look for scape goats. Immigration has always provided an easy one ("They took our jobs!"). But this has little to do with the actual reality of immigration and Irish immigration policy. Recently unemployed people will always blame someone but the government and society in general shouldn't pander to this irrationality.

Seanies32 wrote:

but does it mean we should have open borders?

We don't have open boarders, but even if we did as you yourself point out the system is largely self regulating. People don't come here if there are no jobs for them.

Seanies32 wrote:

then when people start getting laid off their job and they see foreign people still being employed, their opinion changes.

Well people are idiots (in general). You cannot regulate against that, nor is it a good idea to pander to it.

Seanies32 wrote:

Putting our economic and SOCIAL interests first in not a crime even if it may be nonpc.

We have and probably always will put our own economic interests first. Which is why we allow immigration into this country.

Seanies32 wrote:

Why are other countries doing it?

Mostly because the masses have an irrational fear of immigration and the governments reflect that. Its all about pandering and winning votes. I would hope that most people in Ireland would be above that sort of thing.

K-9

bonkey wrote:

It would seem - by your own admission - that immigration is self-regulating to a large degree. When jobs were readily available, people came to take them. Now that they're not as available, fewer people come.

Agreed, if an economy is slowing down, word will filter back to these countries that it is not a good option as it was. They have information, press, education to decide that. Nobody is saying as I'm sure you'lll agree that Polish/Slovakians are poorly educated etc. and can't make these decisions for themselves.

Unfortunately, Romanians/Bulgarians are not as well educated or their economy is actually worse.(generalisation, but true and a consideration that the Govt. had to consider just as much as, what was the UK's position) Distasteful? Yes, Discriminatory? Probably Economic and social reality? yes

Some of the Roma who came here thought they would have been entitled to stay. Some of the 3,000 Romanians who applied in January thought they would have been treated differently, though if they have skills/qualifications needed here they will be allowed to stay.

bonkey wrote:

Social problems are entirely seperate to economic problems.

Ehmmmm, unemployment is linked to economic problems, racism is linked to unemployment as is evident on building sites already. If you have a poor economy it affects Education, health etc.
I would suggest you look at racism problems in other European countries. Could go as far back as Hitler but there have been more recent examples.


How are social problems not linked to economic problems?

bonkey wrote:

Right now, the biggest social problem we seem to have is the root cause of this thread - the lumping of all foreign nationals together, with a dash of misinformation, to basically conclude that because there are some asylum seekers who have the audacity to take their entitlements despite not being penniless themselves, that we need to be suspicious of all foreigners, espcially immigrants from within the EU.

Wouldn't say its the biggest social problem. Health system more important. I wouldn't overexaggerate the problem, yet I wouldn't ignore it and say lets keep on what we're doing and everything will be ok. I think people should have learned from this thread that there are completely different situations. Unfortunately from my OP politicians haven't recognised alot of people need to be educated on this.

bonkey wrote:

Seriously....either we should seperate these various issues, or accept that our basic social problem is that so many Irish are simply hostile to foreign nationals and the realisation that being an island doesn't isolate us from the world any more.

The general reaction has been quite good, a lot of people have accepted it is a good thing. Some education on the rest and that if we went abroad we would be treated the same would be helpful. I wouldn't be that negative about the Irish.

bonkey wrote:

That is a danger, yes. It doesn't mean that the accusations would be groundless though.

Agreed, but all the other EU countries have the same. Doesn't mean everybody is right, neither does being different to the rest mean you're right. People probably more qualified than me, and dare I say it you, have decided on this in all EU countries.

bonkey wrote:

Perhaps...but those tensions will almost certainly be increased by people who will seize on the opportunity to blame "the foreigners" for the ills of the nations. You've pointed out that as the jobs become scarcer, so do the immigrants seeking those jobs....so what, exactly, do we need to do about it?

Well its still a problem in UK (Leeds, Bradford etc.), Germany, France and their economies haven't been performing as well as ours.
Yes but maybe the existing "the foreigners" then become a problem in their eyes, working and taking their jobs become the problem! Wrong, yes, ignore it, no.

Should we act differently to all the other EU countries?

How do we solve racism etc. education will help.
Maybe learn from Germany, France, Italy, UK, etc. Hopefully we will and we'll be a first and an example to the rest of the world.

bonkey wrote:

Incidentally, the only thing we can do about it is remove ourselves from the EU. Non-EU immigrants are already subject to "non-open" borders. Do you really think that accession from the EU would help our economy???

Yeah, but as I've pointed out, we've had the freedom to have open borders, to then put restrictions on them, to maybe in the future open them again, after seeing how it affects us.

I never mentioned accession from the EU, another poster did. Soveirngnty is an issue in the EU, but not on this issue.

bonkey wrote:

It is while we remain a member of the EU.

Well all EU members do not have open borders for immigration. That is for socioeconomic reasons. Same different tax rates, Ireland wont give that up without a fight.

K-9

Wicknight wrote:

The UK imposed restrictions on the Romanians saying that they would only let in 20,000. 8,000 actually came.

I can see where you're coming from, but 3,000 applied in January in Ireland, not bad.

20,000 is a restriction, I'm sure it wasn't the first 20,000 who applied regardless of qualification etc. 8,000 applying would be a reflection on the UK economy as well.

Will be based here on individual cases and qualification. The reality is, being a labourer, crane driver etc. wouldn't be a particularly needed skill in the economy at present. Plenty already unfortunately.

Wicknight wrote:

The whole point that has been missed with Romanian is the fact that it isn't Poland. Poland has high unemployment (14%) and a slow economy. Romania on the other hand has a pretty good economy, which is growing, and unemployment levels in line with the rest of Europe.

Would be considered less educated/developed than Poland. Probably something to do with Germany on the border. Maybe, you have a link to prove otherwise.

Wicknight wrote:

People in general don't leave their country to go find work some where else if they can get work at home. And they certainly don't leave on mass to become welfare scroungers (Sweden with the best welfare in Europe but not the best job market was relatively uneffected by enlargement)

I didn't bring it up as a serious issue. Asked about the rules etc. yes just to clarify. Welfare scroungers is not a serious issue IMO, more from Ireland than outside probably.:D If Irelands job market isn't as vibrant, as is happening, less people will come looking for work, as the statictics are proving this year. They will not leave a country where you can't get work to go to another country that you can't get work! If you have statistics that Romanians are bye and large staying at home, because there economy is strong, more so than Poland, it would be helpful. Otherwise, its open to opinion if Poland is stronger than Romania.

Wicknight wrote:

The idea that western Europe would be swapped with Romanians (who most people confuse with the Roma gypsies anyway) was simply ill-informed scaremongering, praying on the idea that most UK and Irish consider Eastern Europe to be one big dirty country. Unfortunately the governments, in an effort to look tough, feel for this.

They'd made a law, this was the first test. Right or wrong, I don't know, did they own houses in Romania as the ambassador said, probably not like our palaces, but why make a distiction for them and not other Romamians.

Wicknight wrote:

This has little to do with foreign workers and everything to do with the turn down of the economy. If I was a construction worker I would be doing a FAS information technology course right away.

Tell that to people being laid off! You know different and so do I, hasn't been getting through on the ground though.

Your opinion is very understanding of people who can't get work in construction. Are Polish etc. entitled to FAS courses same as Irish workers as it will effect the as well.

Wicknight wrote:

In any down turning industry people look for scape goats. Immigration has always provided an easy one ("They took our jobs!"). But this has little to do with the actual reality of immigration and Irish immigration policy. Recently unemployed people will always blame someone but the government and society in general shouldn't pander to this irrationality.

Ageed, we'll probably be a first if we manage it with no incidents/tensions.

Wicknight wrote:

We don't have open boarders, but even if we did as you yourself point out the system is largely self regulating. People don't come here if there are no jobs for them.

As Romanians/Bulgarians have nearly stopped coming here. Is it wrong they where treated differently? Yes, What happens the Polish etc. that came here 3/4 years ago. Do we tell them to fe** off, there's no jobs left here for you's.

Wicknight wrote:

We have and probably always will put our own economic interests first. Which is why we allow immigration into this country.

Completely right decision before. Even economists who opposed it 4 years agree it was right. Does it mean its right now? Not necessarily. We will put our economic/social interests first, which is why we allow/disallow open borders as we see fit. Why bring immigrants in without restrictions, maybe causing more racism problems in our own country, unitentionally and causing even more problems. Just because its PC or generally the right thing, or the Irish Times line, doesn't mean its correct, as the IT should have learned by now.

Wicknight wrote:

Mostly because the masses have an irrational fear of immigration and the governments reflect that. Its all about pandering and winning votes. I would hope that most people in Ireland would be above that sort of thing.

Wouldn't be that drastic. Was immigration a serious issue in the election? An irrational fear of a economic slowdown yes, maybe.;)


I think I'm coming from an opinion that immigration is good, but careful now:D . Should we have conditions/qualifications on it now because we are wealthier/richer, yes, even if thats unfair since 04.
Should we have completely open borders, maybe, but we also have a right just as important as immigration rights, that is our socio economic rights, including, btw, every citizen INCLUDING people not born/immigrated here.

bonkey

Seanies32 wrote:

Ehmmmm, unemployment is linked to economic problems, racism is linked to unemployment as is evident on building sites already.

While I agree that unemployment is linked to economic problems, I beg to differ on the second part.

People were complaining about "them foreigners" long before the economy started slowing down. While our economy was year-on-year the strongest in Europe, and when we technically had fully employment and literally couldn't "import" workers fast enough, people were still complaining about them.

If you have a poor economy it affects Education, health etc.

Not necessarily. When Ireland was a relatively poor, developing nation (about 30 years ago) we had a world-class education system that was the envy of many far-richer countries. Why? Because education was rightly recognised as a priority for improving our lot in life. Ironically, as Ireland became richer, we sacrificed the quality of our education system in order to concentrate on other priorities.

Other comparatively poor nations have focussed on health (which in Ireland is, admittedly, a disaster).

The reality is that limited resources require prioritised allocation, and something has to lose out, but it doesn't follow that it has to be education or health.

I would suggest you look at racism problems in other European countries.

I live in one of those other European countries. I'm well aware of both where things have worked and where things have failed. Predominantly, they've failed where the immigrants have been treated as second-class citizens who's "purpose" is to do menial work and be grateful that they'be been let in in the first place. Where they've been welcomed and given a chance to prove themselves, on the other hand, there's a far greater success-rate, better integration, fewer problems. The notion that we should welcome immigrants when we need them, but ensure they're the first to lose out when there's hard times pretty-much ensures that there'll be problems down the road.

How are social problems not linked to economic problems?

OK - maybe I shouldn't have said they're entirely seperate, but the reality is that the social problems exist in good or bad economic climates. Literally since I've joined boards, there's been regular threads warning about how this influx of foreigners is going to ruin our country any day now. The distinction between asylum seeker and immigrant is blurred as convenient. The distinction between EU citizens availing of the same freedom of movement we enjoy and others coming to the country is conveniently ignored as convenient.

I left Ireland nigh on 7 years ago, and back then I was acutely aware of how racist many people treated foreigners who simply wanted to make a living in a nation they were entitled to be in and which was crying out for foreign labour.

Now, as it appears that a downturn really is coming, those self-same people are standing up saying "I told you so...we have to do something about those foreigners" as though Ireland would somehow have been immune to the rise-and-fall nature of economics that effects everyone had we only managed to be more xenophobic, ignoring that this would both have long-ago crippled our economy and been a mirror-image of the policies that led to the very social problems in other nations that you warn about.

Look instead to the Tamils in Switzerland as an example. They were welcomed in droves. They were given a chance to build their own lives. They were given a chance to work and they took it. People who moaned about the lack fo integration were basically ignored, and today Tamils are as well-integrated, well-respected, but still-identifiable minority as many other groups in Switzerland (e.g. the Italians who preceeded them) are.

Health system more important.

The problems with Ireland's health-care system aren't social in nature. Its not a problem caused by Irish society. It impacts the people, but then again, if it didn't it wouldn't be a problem.

Agreed, but all the other EU countries have the same. Doesn't mean everybody is right, neither does being different to the rest mean you're right.

The point I was making is that the argument of "there's a danger that...." isn't terribly worthwhile. Its an argument that puts aside questions of why, preferring to go instead with the existence of the threat. Its almost indistinguishable from scare-mongering.

Well its still a problem in UK (Leeds, Bradford etc.), Germany, France and their economies haven't been performing as well as ours.

But their problems stem from those who immigrated into those countries when there was work for them. Its also the case that those who immigrated had ties to the country previously. In the cases of the UK and France, its mostly from ex-colony nations. In Germany, its mainly the Ossies (East Germans) and (to a degree) other Eastern-European neighbours. In all cases, specific problems can be identified as major contributors to the problem.

If we accept that "there is a danger that" we'll go the same way, then it should be incumbent on us to identify these major contributing factors and to do what we can to avoid the same traps. In many cases, people stop at identifying "lack of integration" and blame it all on the foreigners (cause its our country, they should integrate), but at the same time argue that we should treat these people differently because they're foreign!!!

Should we act differently to all the other EU countries?

That depends how you mean the question...

With the second-last enlargement, we freely chose to act differently to the other EU countries, and as a result, our economy continued to outshine theirs by a large margin.

In one sense, we should act the same as them and allow freedom of movement within the EU. After all, it means that you have the freedom to move and work somewhere else, just as others have come to Ireland.

On the other hand, we should look at what these nations got wrong with their last big rounds of immigration (predominantly post WW2, pre-EU) and make sure that we learn from them, and do not repeat the mistakes they made as part of that even if they themselves haven't learned those lessons yet.

How do we solve racism etc. education will help.

Before we were members of the EU (if you're old enough to remember those halcyon days), most Irish people would have been shocked at the suggestion that we - as a nation - were in the slightest bit racist. Then the foreigners arrived and we discovered that if they didn't speak english natively and have white skin, large numbers of us were highly suspicious (or outright hostile) to them.

Education will indeed help with this problem....as will continued exposure to "foreigners". In the meantime, we need to look at all vocal cries about "open borders" and so forth and see what the real issue is.

Again...look at this thread. The thread says "non-nationals". The question was almost-specifically about Roma. Somewhere along the line, asylum seekers got dragged into it, while mostly we seem to be concentrating on EU members with freedom of movement!!! How are these all the same issue? How are they connected, other than that we're talking about foreigners in each case? Why are we incapable of seperating the issues, if not because our issue is with foreigners, and not with the specifics of each seperate group???


Maybe learn from Germany, France, Italy, UK, etc. Hopefully we will and we'll be a first and an example to the rest of the world.



Yeah, but as I've pointed out, we've had the freedom to have open borders, to then put restrictions on them, to maybe in the future open them again, after seeing how it affects us.

I never mentioned accession from the EU, another poster did. Soveirngnty is an issue in the EU, but not on this issue.



Well all EU members do not have open borders for immigration. That is for socioeconomic reasons. Same different tax rates, Ireland wont give that up without a fight.[/QUOTE]

K-9

bonkey wrote:

While I agree that unemployment is linked to economic problems, I beg to differ on the second part.

People were complaining about "them foreigners" long before the economy started slowing down. While our economy was year-on-year the strongest in Europe, and when we technically had fully employment and literally couldn't "import" workers fast enough, people were still complaining about them.

Bonkey, there'll always be an element that will complain. Govt, society etc. can educate as much as they want but that will still exist. A huge majority accept it has been positive in general. Immigration wasn't a serious issue during the election which is good.

Education and health I suppose are for another thread and hopefully not relevant to this as they should have equal rights to those as Irish citizens. It should be a human right.

bonkey wrote:

Predominantly, they've failed where the immigrants have been treated as second-class citizens who's "purpose" is to do menial work and be grateful that they'be been let in in the first place. Where they've been welcomed and given a chance to prove themselves, on the other hand, there's a far greater success-rate, better integration, fewer problems. The notion that we should welcome immigrants when we need them, but ensure they're the first to lose out when there's hard times pretty-much ensures that there'll be problems down the road.

Think I made that point myself, we need to protect everybodies interests including our own Irish citizens and that includes many EU and asylum seekers granted citizenship and people wanting to come into the country. Immigration has been generally successful, hopefully that is not damaged now when employment is more off an issue than it was. I agree with what your saying but irish construction workers being laid off are going to be jealous of employees (of all nationality including Irish) left employed. Understandable and natural even if we all know there are plenty other reasons for the construction sector downturn.

Those unemployed workers will be entitled to SW and training courses. All these unemployed people, regardless of nationality should get the same support.

bonkey wrote:

OK - maybe I shouldn't have said they're entirely seperate, but the reality is that the social problems exist in good or bad economic climates. Literally since I've joined boards, there's been regular threads warning about how this influx of foreigners is going to ruin our country any day now. The distinction between asylum seeker and immigrant is blurred as convenient. The distinction between EU citizens availing of the same freedom of movement we enjoy and others coming to the country is conveniently ignored as convenient.

Thats why I started this thread, to try and get some facts on these cases rather than opinions or whatever.Unfortunately sone people are still prejudiced even if it is pointed out black and white that they are wrong.

bonkey wrote:

Now, as it appears that a downturn really is coming, those self-same people are standing up saying "I told you so...we have to do something about those foreigners" as though Ireland would somehow have been immune to the rise-and-fall nature of economics that effects everyone had we only managed to be more xenophobic, ignoring that this would both have long-ago crippled our economy and been a mirror-image of the policies that led to the very social problems in other nations that you warn about.

What do you do with people like that? They disagreed with immigration, its worked for the country on loads of different levels, yet they still don't agree with it?

bonkey wrote:

The point I was making is that the argument of "there's a danger that...." isn't terribly worthwhile. Its an argument that puts aside questions of why, preferring to go instead with the existence of the threat. Its almost indistinguishable from scare-mongering.

Or considered opinion taking everything into account? You can educate people as much as possible but there will always will be people who will be racist/jealous.

bonkey wrote:

But their problems stem from those who immigrated into those countries when there was work for them. Its also the case that those who immigrated had ties to the country previously. In the cases of the UK and France, its mostly from ex-colony nations. In Germany, its mainly the Ossies (East Germans) and (to a degree) other Eastern-European neighbours. In all cases, specific problems can be identified as major contributors to the problem.

Maybe specifics involved but the same general problem remains despite a history of immigration greater than ours. There's still problems in these countries. Hopefully Ireland can learn from these situations.

bonkey wrote:

If we accept that "there is a danger that" we'll go the same way, then it should be incumbent on us to identify these major contributing factors and to do what we can to avoid the same traps. In many cases, people stop at identifying "lack of integration" and blame it all on the foreigners (cause its our country, they should integrate), but at the same time argue that we should treat these people differently because they're foreign!!!

Yeah, logic doesn't seem to come into it for these people. They are very hard to educate on.

bonkey wrote:

Education will indeed help with this problem....as will continued exposure to "foreigners". In the meantime, we need to look at all vocal cries about "open borders" and so forth and see what the real issue is.

Agreed again. However because we put our economy first in the interest of all our citizens, Irish native or not, does not make us more racist, either does not having an open borders policy. There seems to be a generalisation, saying the policy is somehow racist, just as bad as ones about immigrants. It's not necessarily a "is it coz I'm black" issue.:D

bonkey wrote:

Again...look at this thread. The thread says "non-nationals". The question was almost-specifically about Roma. Somewhere along the line, asylum seekers got dragged into it, while mostly we seem to be concentrating on EU members with freedom of movement!!! How are these all the same issue? How are they connected, other than that we're talking about foreigners in each case? Why are we incapable of seperating the issues, if not because our issue is with foreigners, and not with the specifics of each seperate group???

I was the OP. Wanted to get at all issues not just Roma, though of course that was a topical issue at the time. I don't mind if it goes off topic a bit as long as the issues are relevant. The 3 questions at the end covered asylum seekers, EU citizens and Romania/Bulgaria.