Where are the Atheists?

Saint Ruth

Considering the number of atheism that seem to be floating about, isn't it rather surprising only 929 people in the entire country defined themselves as "Atheist"?

I'm sure some of the 186,000 "No Religion" were Atheists (and I'm sure some of them were also non-atheist "I don't believe in organised religion but I believe in something" crowd), but the question is, why don't people tick the "Atheist" box???

http://beyond2020.cso.ie/Census/TableViewer/tableView.aspx?ReportId=1852

cavedave

Was there an atheism box? I remember getting annoyed that I had to tick the "no religion" box which i thought was pretty vague.

If you assume all the no religion really were atheists/agnostics that still is only about 5% of people which seems low.

toiletduck

I'm sure there wasn't an atheist box, I too remember being peeved at having to tick the No Religion box.

Dades

There was definitely no atheist option.

Your options (as a non-believer) were - "no religion", put down "athiest/humanist/whatever" in the "other" area, or both. Live cavedave I find the no-religion thing vague, but I guess it tells the government all it needs to know.

At any rate it's all moot, given the amount of mammies and daddies who put their entire household down as catholic without giving their spawn a say in the matter.

Saint Ruth

The Atheist wrote:

There was definitely no atheist option.

I stand corrected...

Options were RC, Church of I, Presb, Methodist, Islam, Other, No Relgion

929 people then wrote "Atheist" in the "Other" box...

http://www.cso.ie/census/documents/censusform_2006.pdf

Galvasean

The Atheist wrote:

At any rate it's all moot, given the amount of mammies and daddies who put their entire household down as catholic without giving their spawn a say in the matter.

Yeah they pulled that one on me and my sister too.

Dave!

Yeh I remember at the time of the census lots of people on here saying that their parentals filled in the form for the whole family and put them all down as Catholic.

Well I'm one of those mudderb*tches. Has there been any recent national polls on this? I dont imagine so... But if there was, then Id say we'd get a more accurate figure. That said, I dont think it would be particularly huge TBH.

Bottle_of_Smoke

You do realise Athiesm isn't a religion? Charles Darwin's not a prophet either.

If you're an athiest you put down no religion. It's quite laughable that 929 people marked other.

MooseJam

My mammy filled out the form, I guess I was put down as Catholic, I feel so dirty

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Scofflaw

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote:

You do realise Athiesm isn't a religion? Charles Darwin's not a prophet either.

If you're an athiest you put down no religion. It's quite laughable that 929 people marked other.

Not really. I did it for exactly the reason raised by the OP - that is, so one atheist can find out how many other atheists there are. There is no other count as authoritative as the census, so it is by far the best way of doing such a thing.

You're aware, I assume, that putting "Atheist" down under the section marked religion has no impact on atheism itself, or on your personal atheism?

cordially,
Scofflaw

cavedave

You do realise Athiesm isn't a religion?

And disbelief in leprechauns is not "no leprichaunian" there were no items for belief in fairies or trolls or that "fire is magical and should be worshipped". Defining atheism as an absence shows the census takers are missing the point.

Charles Darwin's not a prophet either.

Depends on what definition you follow. By 6. and 7. Darwin was a prophet.

Scofflaw

cavedave wrote:

And disbelief in leprechauns is not "no leprichaunian" there were no items for belief in fairies or trolls or that "fire is magical and should be worshipped". Defining atheism as an absence shows the census takers are missing the point.


Depends on what definition you follow. By 6. and 7. Darwin was a prophet.

Hmm. By 6, though, every scientist is. Meteorologists might have the best claim.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Zillah

If someone asks me about religion I'm very quick to say Atheist, meaning that I definately do not believe there is a God.

However, I must say, from the Government's point of view in regard to the census, they don't give a flying toss whether you're an apathetic agnostic, a hardline atheist or a rebellious teenage secularist...you don't have a religion and thats all they care about in terms of planning for a future, and thats what the census exists for, so the government can plan for coming needs of the nation.

From a historical/sociological point of view I'd like if the census had better defined terms, but thats not their primary concern.

Zombrex

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote:

You do realise Athiesm isn't a religion? Charles Darwin's not a prophet either.

If you're an athiest you put down no religion. It's quite laughable that 929 people marked other.

I agree. Atheism is not a religion. It isn't an "other" religion that just isn't mentioned. I ticked "No Religion" because I do not follow any religion. Simple as that. Do you believe in/follow a religion? No, I don't. Right, well tick this box. That was the only important bit from the point of view of the census boards

Tim Robbins

Wicknight wrote:

I agree. Atheism is not a religion. It isn't an "other" religion that just isn't mentioned. I ticked "No Religion" because I do not follow any religion. Simple as that. Do you believe in/follow a religion? No, I don't. Right, well tick this box. That was the only important bit from the point of view of the census boards

I think a submission should be made to the government so that they get their research correct.
Many people believe in God but would call themselves No Religion. Massive difference to atheists who don't believe in God and don't affiliate themselves with a Religion.

Zombrex

Tim Robbins wrote:

I think a submission should be made to the government so that they get their research correct.
Many people believe in God but would call themselves No Religion.

Ultimately that is irrelevant.

The point of the census is not to count the number of atheists in the country. The census is a guide for the State with regard to how the country as a whole moves forward for the next few years. Knowing now many atheists there are provides no benefit over knowing how many non-religious people there are.

While it might be interesting to separate out the "No religion" people to find out exactly what they believe this actually doesn't serve any purpose beyond our curiosity. From the point of view of the government a no religion atheists is the same as a no religion personal angel believers, since either subscribes to a religion that requires anything from the State.

Scofflaw

Wicknight wrote:

The point of the census is not to count the number of atheists in the country. The census is a guide for the State with regard to how the country as a whole moves forward for the next few years. Knowing now many atheists there are provides no benefit over knowing how many non-religious people there are.

While it might be interesting to separate out the "No religion" people to find out exactly what they believe this actually doesn't serve any purpose beyond our curiosity. From the point of view of the government a no religion atheists is the same as a no religion personal angel believers, since either subscribes to a religion that requires anything from the State.

And since the government is entirely uninterested, will people in future please write "Atheist" under the "Other" option so that we atheists can use the government survey to find out how many of us there are!

Honestly, people, it's unbelievably silly to get all sniffy about this "well, atheism isn't a religion you know" stuff, when the option to use the census for our own information is there.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Tim Robbins

Scofflaw wrote:

And since the government is entirely uninterested, will people in future please write "Atheist" under the "Other" option so that we atheists can use the government survey to find out how many of us there are!

Honestly, people, it's unbelievably silly to get all sniffy about this "well, atheism isn't a religion you know" stuff, when the option to use the census for our own information is there.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Yes when people ask me what Religion I am or my views on Religion, I always state I am an atheist. I don't say I am no Religion. so I will treat the survey the same.

PS
I wonder will anybody put down "bright" and how the government will treat that.

Goodshape

According to that census I come from the 'Most Catholic Town in Ireland' - Buncrana, Co. Donegal. One of the newspapers did an article on it at the time.

That's probably not altogether relevant to this discussion, I just can't help but think of it everytime the census is mentioned. I really do find it a depressing concept.


Personally, I'd agree with those Bottle_of_Smoke and Wicknight -- atheism is not a religion. The 'No Religion' box should suffice.

Scofflaw

Goodshape wrote:

According to that census I come from the 'Most Catholic Town in Ireland' - Buncrana, Co. Donegal. One of the newspapers did an article on it at the time.

That's probably not altogether relevant to this discussion, I just can't help but think of it everytime the census is mentioned. I really do find it a depressing concept.

Personally, I'd agree with those Bottle_of_Smoke and Wicknight -- atheism is not a religion. The 'No Religion' box should suffice.

Sigh. I know I'm rather harping on this, but ticking the "No Religion" box is simply a statement about what you believe about Atheism. The job of the census' Religion section is not to determine whether Atheism is a religion, but to collect information which is then freely available to the general public.

The census offers one of the best ways for atheists in Ireland to find out how many other atheists there are. I haven't even heard a sensible reason for not using it like that, since the statement "atheism is not a religion", while true, is completely irrelevant.

vexed,
Scofflaw

Zombrex

Scofflaw wrote:

And since the government is entirely uninterested, will people in future please write "Atheist" under the "Other" option so that we atheists can use the government survey to find out how many of us there are!

Why?

That won't give an accurate number of atheists since each atheist doing it has to know that this is what you want them to do so they can be counted.

Unless everyone does the same thing it is ultimately pointless because the numbers will be still be off.

I don't see the problem in just following the question that you are asked rather than trying to turn the question into something else so we can kinda sorta get a very inaccurate number of atheists in the country simply for our own amusement.

The question isn't designed to count atheists, it is designed to count the number of people belonging to an organized religion.

Are you a member of an organized religion? No? Well then tick the "No Religion" box. Atheism is neither a religion nor particularly organized.

Hivemind187

Wicknight wrote:

The question isn't designed to count atheists, it is designed to count the number of people belonging to an organized religion.

Are you a member of an organized religion? No? Well then tick the "No Religion" box. Atheism is neither a religion nor particularly organized.

Neither is Voodoo but you can still claim various legal defences becauseof its status as a belief system.

Trouble is the government is only getting the number on how many people actually ascribe to one religion or another. The problem is when they start allocating resources to groups based on this information.

Pity they dont have a "secularist" box isnt it?

Scofflaw

Wicknight wrote:

That won't give an accurate number of atheists since each atheist doing it has to know that this is what you want them to do so they can be counted.

Unless everyone does the same thing it is ultimately pointless because the numbers will be still be off.

That is, of course, quite true. However, an accurate count is not the point - the point is to show those who are atheists that they are not on their own, to try and get some feeling for the 'strength' of atheism in Ireland.

Why do that? Well, currently, the religious can happily say that there are 'only' 929 atheists in Ireland, and that therefore, any call to take account of their views is totally pointless.

By lumping yourself in with 'people who have a theistic viewpoint but aren't sufficiently definite to feel they "belong" to any particular church' (also the "No Religion" box), all you're doing is strengthening the argument that we atheists don't count. We don't count, because we've chosen not to be counted - well done.

Wicknight wrote:

I don't see the problem in just following the question that you are asked rather than trying to turn the question into something else so we can kinda sorta get a very inaccurate number of atheists in the country simply for our own amusement.

The question isn't designed to count atheists, it is designed to count the number of people belonging to an organized religion.

It doesn't matter what the question is designed to measure. If you are correct, and the government doesn't bother to distinguish between atheists and non-religious, then they will simply sum the numbers. Destroying information by blending different kinds is easy as pie.

The point is that the question can be made to serve the purpose of counting atheists, so that people can less easily discount us.

Wicknight wrote:

Are you a member of an organized religion? No? Well then tick the "No Religion" box. Atheism is neither a religion nor particularly organized.

True, but irrelevant. Also, a position that is ideological, rather than useful.

It's easy - you don't even need to stand up to be counted. Just write the word 'Atheist' - heck, you can even tick the box marked 'No Religion' and write Atheist under 'Other'.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Asiaprod

Scofflaw wrote:

By lumping yourself in with 'people who have a theistic viewpoint but aren't sufficiently definite to feel they "belong" to any particular church' (also the "No Religion" box), all you're doing is strengthening the argument that we atheists don't count. We don't count, because we've chosen not to be counted - well done.

Very well put.

Scofflaw wrote:

It's easy - you don't even need to stand up to be counted. Just write the word 'Atheist' - heck, you can even tick the box marked 'No Religion' and write Atheist under 'Other'.

Could they not just deem the returned forms to be, how should I say it, non-usable!

Scofflaw wrote:

The point is that the question can be made to serve the purpose of counting atheists, so that people can less easily discount us.

It has to start somewhere, anywhere. And its easy to do.

Tar.Aldarion

I'm not quite sure they understood alatrist.

Anyway, our upbringing has such an affect on us. A friend for isnstance put down catholic/christian on hers, even though she was not. It made no sense. She was just brought up as one, so put it down. The pyschological affects from her youth were plain to see when discussing it with her.
Not to mention a lot of families put down christian for all their children, as mentioned..

Zombrex

Hivemind187 wrote:

Neither is Voodoo but you can still claim various legal defences becauseof its status as a belief system.

If there is any advantage to putting "Atheist" in the "other" box, over simply ticking "no religion", I will gladly do it.

So far I can see none.

Hivemind187 wrote:

Trouble is the government is only getting the number on how many people actually ascribe to one religion or another. The problem is when they start allocating resources to groups based on this information.

That isn't the trouble, that is the entire point of the question.

I've no problem to people objecting to the question being asked in the first place, or the argument that the state should be secular and not allocating resources based on religion at all. But that is ultimately a separate issue, and it makes no different to this cause if someone chooses "atheist" or "no religion". From the point of view of the secular agenda they have the same result.

The only reason to record atheist specifically is if something happens differently because you are an atheists over what would happen if you are a "no religion" statistic.

I cannot see what that example would be.

Hivemind187 wrote:

Pity they dont have a "secularist" box isnt it?

Again that isn't the point of the question.

Zombrex

Scofflaw wrote:

That is, of course, quite true. However, an accurate count is not the point - the point is to show those who are atheists that they are not on their own, to try and get some feeling for the 'strength' of atheism in Ireland.

That isn't the point of the census question.

If you want to try and get the question changed go ahead, but while it is as it is people should answer it accurately. Atheism is not a religion, it does not require resources from the State, nor is it a organised movement or grouping.

I don't even particularly want to be counted with the rest of you as if we are a unified group.

It gives the wrong impression of what atheism actually is. I feel no affinity towards atheists just because they are atheists. I have no shared views of beliefs with other atheists just because they are atheists. I might have completely different beliefs and view point to another atheist. We might be polar opposites in everything we believe. The idea that we should be grouped together by simply because of what we don't believe is rather a bizarre idea.

There seems to be an underlying assumption that atheists means secularist, or humanist. That is not a safe assumption to make. Secularism or humanism are belief systems, and if there is a box for either of them I would gladly tick them.

Scofflaw wrote:

Why do that? Well, currently, the religious can happily say that there are 'only' 929 atheists in Ireland, and that therefore, any call to take account of their views is totally pointless.

Again since atheists as a group don't have views, I don't see the problem with that.

If anyone said that I would point them to the box marked "No Religion", and point out how many people in Ireland do not follow any organized religion.

Scofflaw wrote:

We don't count, because we've chosen not to be counted - well done.

As a group we don't count, that is the point.

We don't have any unified, or even defined, goals or mission or view point.

Again it is important to distinguish between atheism and something like secularism or humanism.

Scofflaw wrote:

It doesn't matter what the question is designed to measure. If you are correct, and the government doesn't bother to distinguish between atheists and non-religious, then they will simply sum the numbers.

The problem with answering "atheist" is that it does give the impression that we are actually a unified group with some form of shared belief system.

And this idea is not only incorrect it is dangerous because it leads to theists grouping us together (such as "Look what the atheist Stalin did! Look what the atheist Pol Pop did!")

Scofflaw wrote:

The point is that the question can be made to serve the purpose of counting atheists, so that people can less easily discount us.

Good, they should discount "us"

Scofflaw

Wicknight wrote:

If there is any advantage to putting "Atheist" in the "other" box, over simply ticking "no religion", I will gladly do it.

So far I can see none.

The only reason to record atheist specifically is if something happens differently because you are an atheists over what would happen if you are a "no religion" statistic.

I cannot see what that example would be.

Minister: "Hmm, should we take the atheists into account when devising the primary school curriculum?"

Advisor: "Nah. There's feck-all of them."

Minister: "Really?What does the census say?"

Advisor: "Only 929."

Minister: "Wouldn't a lot of the 'No Religion' people be atheists?"

Advisor: "Maybe, but they obviously don't feel strongly enough about it to mention it."

Minister: "OK - 100% religious then. Well, that simplifies things."

obviously,
Scofflaw

Zombrex

Scofflaw wrote:

Minister: "Hmm, should we take the atheists into account when devising the primary school curriculum?"

Advisor: "Nah. There's feck-all of them."

Minister: "Really?What does the census say?"

Advisor: "Only 929."

Minister: "Wouldn't a lot of the 'No Religion' people be atheists?"

Advisor: "Maybe, but they obviously don't feel strongly enough about it to mention it."

Minister: "OK - 100% religious then. Well, that simplifies things."

obviously,
Scofflaw

You seem to be working under the assumption that when the CSO, the government, or the county councils read "No Religion" they go "Oh, well obviously those guys are just kidding themselves"

Do you have anything to actually support that idea?

I would be far more worried by these seeming idiotic State planners going "Ok, we have a couple of thousand atheists, we better make an atheist school ... what do atheist believe in again?"

Dades

The way I see it, writing "atheist", "agnostic", "humanist" etc. on the form is just making a small statement that you feel the no-religion bracket is too vague to mean anything.

It may be seen as sufficient for the purpose of government budgeting, but seems like a wasted opportunity to get more in depth analysis of peoples personal beliefs.