Opinions of Prime Time "Feud" programme

Liam Byrne

What's the general view of the Prime Time programme tonight ?

Personally, I didn't recognise Limerick

For an outsider, I think it would have reinforced misleading stereotypes and prejudices about Limerick.

Statements implying that Limerick was stunned into silence on the night of some murder or other (not sure of the exact phrase) are completely misleading, since most of Limerick would not have been aware of the murder until the day after, when they read it in the papers.

And it wouldn't have taken much to correct; for example, the statement that "Despite the feud, Limerick is moving on" could easily have been reversed to say "Despite Limerick moving on, a minority still insist on perpetuating the feud", thereby emphasising that the feud has no bearing on what the majority of Limerick does or thinks about during their daily lives.

But then, what should we expect, since the credits acknowledged the co-operation of 3 tabloid rags and no mainstream newspapers....

Time for water off the duck's back, methinks, since some things never change, but I would be interested in hearing other people's opinions of the programme....

ninty9er

To me it looked like a complete work of fiction with the odd smattering of truth here and there. The settings for reconstructions were totally off the wall!!

billy the squid

it looked to me as though they drove a car around southill with a camera sticking out the side window and captured enough footage to use for the programme.

most of it came from southill.

And then you had interviews with that eejit john gilligan, who always seems to get his mug on telly whenever someone utters the words "feud" and "limerick" in the same sentence.

it was a rehash of what we already know.

vkid

in fairness what were ye expecting. Thats exactly what the programme is ..a history of the feuds around the country. there was never going to be anything new in it. The reconstructions were obviously not done in Limerick but big deal..and out of all the Limerick programmes i've seen RTE do it was probably the most balanced. Limerick being a modern city and booming was highlighted at the beginning and end and some nice images of the city centre were shown. The Fitzgerald report was also mentioned so what did people actually think they were going to see...? What is new that they could have included? If they had included other stuff people would be giving out as well..

Liam Byrne

True enough, vkid.....and I've definitely seen the story handled a lot worse.

The only issue that I would have is in the balance......while a documentary about the feud would be expected to focus on the negative, the overall impression was about "Limerick", not about the feud, and since stories like this are almost the only story RTE or others will do about Limerick (i.e. it's not counterbalanced by being part of a whole variety of coverage) then it would've been nice to interview normal people and hear their reactions, which would probably range from "I live near this crap and someone should do something about it" to "It has absolutely nothing to do with my life because it's isolated and between those involved".

source

I've watched most of the series so far, and i have to say it was handled in the same way that ALL the episodes on Dublin were handled, It's the most balanced show i've seen on the Limerick feud.

The chap from the indo did say that ordinary people do not see the violence of the feud first hand(this is not verbatim). I think this is the first time that something like this was highlighted on RTE.

They also point out that the feud in the main, is confined to the areas the gangs live, ie St mary's park, Southhill and Moyross,Again a first for RTE coverage on the subject.

Personally, i think this is the best coverage on the feud i've seen. Sure there were some phrases that could have been put differently, but this subject is so touchy in this city that they could have made Limerick look like a super city, and some people would still find fault with it.

What i'm saying is it could have been better, but it could have been a hell of a lot worse. What more do you expect from a show made soley to highlight the feuds around the country.

vkid

exactly. And Liam, why would they interview people from Limerick when none of the other feud programmes featured any interviews or vox-pop's from any of the other cities people involved. It seems to me that no matter how things are reported about Limerick some people will never be happy with the coverage.
They covered this story in exactly the same way that the others were handled and probably gave this story a bit more of a positive twist than the other episodes. This is what happened in the city feud and they reported it..nothing wrong or inaccurate or fabricated. People need to stop blaming rte/the dublin media for everything. There are plenty of Limerick's "media" making bigger deals out of things and reporting them badly as well so people should look to themselves first and foremost. The Limerick "media" are quite happy to report every single little story that happens. Did anyone know that there have been several stabbings in Cork city centre and its Northside in recent weeks. Do you see Corks media blasting it everywhere..no.
Take a look at Galways free sheet next time you are there..plenty of crime stories (some worse than things you hear happening in Limerick ) in it but they are all either buried in the back pages or are very small articles. Limerick "media" tend to report everything in the first few pages/articles and then we wonder why the national media jump on the stories ?
Again I can't see what people think was wrong with last nights show and what "new" stuff they expect to have seen in it...by keeping to the formats of the other programmes ?

Amazotheamazing

vkid wrote:

exactly. And Liam, why would they interview people from Limerick when none of the other feud programmes featured any interviews or vox-pop's from any of the other cities people involved. It seems to me that no matter how things are reported about Limerick some people will never be happy with the coverage.
They covered this story in exactly the same way that the others were handled and probably gave this story a bit more of a positive twist than the other episodes. This is what happened in the city feud and they reported it..nothing wrong or inaccurate or fabricated. People need to stop blaming rte/the dublin media for everything. There are plenty of Limerick's "media" making bigger deals out of things and reporting them badly as well so people should look to themselves first and foremost. The Limerick "media" are quite happy to report every single little story that happens. Did anyone know that there have been several stabbings in Cork city centre and its Northside in recent weeks. Do you see Corks media blasting it everywhere..no.
Take a look at Galways free sheet next time you are there..plenty of crime stories (some worse than things you hear happening in Limerick ) in it but they are all either buried in the back pages or are very small articles. Limerick "media" tend to report everything in the first few pages/articles and then we wonder why the national media jump on the stories ?
Again I can't see what people think was wrong with last nights show and what "new" stuff they expect to have seen in it...by keeping to the formats of the other programmes ?

Exactly.

We'd be better off burning down the Limerick Leader if we want to change Limerick's rep. The Leader has never once missed a chnace to run this fine city down.

The programme itself was as balanced as the other programmes in the series, I'm sure there's people in Blanchardstown giving out about how their area was portrayed in the one about the Westies, but it's a programme about the feuds, not a tourism piece.

vkid

i think its unfair to name just the Leader. There are many media outlets based in the city just as bad imo..!

bullets

Must same I am a Limerick person but have never been a fan of the place.
but it is changing for the better. (A bit too slowly) but if all the plans
that are planned fall into place I reckon we are looking at one nice
looking modern city.

May be interesting if there was a program made that got aired on RTE
that specifically was made to show Limerick in a good light and
that to highlight that some Limerick peeps are fed up with
the image the place has been shown by the media.

Interview people to show that a lot of them are un-effected by fueds,
gangland crimes or show that some people have not even got a clue
who these poeple are. Show all of the good things and make little
of the bad things. If its out of balance then consider it payback for all
the rest of the other programs/articles that showed the place in
a negative way.

~B

cooperguy

bullets wrote:

Must same I am a Limerick person but have never been a fan of the place.
but it is changing for the better. (A bit too slowly) but if all the plans
that are planned fall into place I reckon we are looking at one nice
looking modern city.

May be interesting if there was a program made that got aired on RTE
that specifically was made to show Limerick in a good light and
that to highlight that some Limerick peeps are fed up with
the image the place has been shown by the media.

Interview people to show that a lot of them are un-effected by fueds,
gangland crimes or show that some people have not even got a clue
who these poeple are. Show all of the good things and make little
of the bad things. If its out of balance then consider it payback for all
the rest of the other programs/articles that showed the place in
a negative way.

~B

Who would want to sit down and watch a half an hour marketing campaign for Limerick (or anywhere else for that matter?)

Liam Byrne

Don't get me wrong, guys......it was definitely better than a lot of what I've seen, but one small point that does reflect the only area that I'd question:

I'm sure there's people in Blanchardstown giving out about how their area was portrayed in the one about the Westies, but it's a programme about the feuds, not a tourism piece.

Exactly - those programmes were about problems in Blanchardstown, not in Dublin. So to be completely balanced (a little too much to expect, I guess) the programme should be about Southill, Moyross or wherever.

Like I said, have seen worse, and wasn't expecting a tourist show, but a tiny bit more care and I would have been commending the documentary for fairness and balance.

Amazotheamazing

Blanchardstown's population is something like 50,000, not too far removed from the official totla for Limerck, iirc?

badboyblast

I`m from Limerick all my life if i did`nt have ties here with my own family and parents, job etc i would be gone.

The place is really a S***hole, Limerick people seem to be grudge ever one else that do well in this city...thats what i hate about the place.

Liam Byrne

Amazotheamazing wrote:

Blanchardstown's population is something like 50,000, not too far removed from the official totla for Limerck, iirc?

Misleading....do a Google search for "boundary extension Limerick"....up to 90% of Limerick's suburban population is outside the "official" total, which skews both the above reference and the crime stats.

vkid

badboyblast wrote:

I`m from Limerick all my life if i did`nt have ties here with my own family and parents, job etc i would be gone.

The place is really a S***hole, Limerick people seem to be grudge ever one else that do well in this city...thats what i hate about the place.

no offence dude but that exactly the attitude thats ruins the city. There is nothing worse for me than Limerick people saying it a ****hole. This is changing but a bit of pride wouldnt go astray..and there is plenty to be proud of. Begrudgery is an Irish thing not a Limerick thing. It happens in every city and town around the country and it is an awful trait of Irish people. Limerick has its problems but its not the worst place in the country and that is for sure.
Place would be a lot better off without that kind of thinking. SO if people don't like it you know where the door is..but maybe remember that far away hills look greener and all that!

badboyblast

vkid wrote:

no offence dude but that exactly the attitude thats ruins the city. There is nothing worse for me than Limerick people saying it a ****hole. This is changing but a bit of pride wouldnt go astray..and there is plenty to be proud of. Begrudgery is an Irish thing not a Limerick thing. It happens in every city and town around the country and it is an awful trait of Irish people. Limerick has its problems but its not the worst place in the country and that is for sure.
Place would be a lot better off without that kind of thinking. SO if people don't like it you know where the door is..but maybe remember that far away hills look greener and all that!

Limerick has alot of good people but for its size it has alot of scum.

Some friends of mine visited the city and were shocked after a walk around town on a Saturday of the amount of knackers at every corner.

Poxyshamrock

I thought they were fair enough when it came to the show...it's not like they said Limerick was a complete and utter scumhole. They always backed up their statements with St. Mary's Park, Southill, Moyross and Ballinacurra Weston.

And I must say Limerick City was looking good in the shots.

Karmafaerie

badboyblast wrote:

Limerick has alot of good people but for its size it has alot of scum.

Some friends of mine visited the city and were shocked after a walk around town on a Saturday of the amount of knackers at every corner.

And I'm sure lots of people can say the same in the same way that lots of people can say that about everywhere.

As was pointed out earlier, it's not a Limerick thing, it's an Irish thing.
The same can be seen in any city, and town in the country.
Anybody who's heard nothing but bad media about Limerick is going to naturally be on the lookout for "unsavoury" types when they come here.

If you were told constantly, day in and day out, for twenty odd years, that Every second person in Galway wore a hat, then when you went to Galway for the first time, you'd be looking out for people in hats!

Believe me, if you want to come out and say that Limerick is any worse than the rest of the country, maybe you should take a few trips to the rest of this "fair land".
It's all the same.

bullets

badboyblast wrote:

Limerick has a lot of good people but for its size it has alot of scum.
Some friends of mine visited the city and were shocked after a walk around town on a Saturday of the amount of knackers at every corner.

While few people may not agree, I'm afraid I side with badboyblast on this one.
I have said it before here on the boards, out of all of the cities I have been to
in Ireland Limerick seems to have the biggest visible scumbag presence.

While there are scumbags in every city. I think the key thing here
is the visible presence more so than other places. It probably got less
to do with actual numbers but more to do with the city Center.

I am speculating here so don't start asking me for facts.........
so dunno if people would agree or disagree with below
I'm not trying to argue or pick on anyone or start
a heated debate I am just writing down what I think......

When walking around the City it feels like a very small place.
Most of the hustle and bustle and the general hanging about in the City
kinda hovers around Brown Thomas, William street, Cruises street, Dunnes/Pennys.
These are all fairly close to each other. A lot of the unsavory types.....
heck most people hang out or frequent in these areas more than other areas.
It may artificially cause it to look like there are more scumbags
that other places.

If you look at Dublin there may be more scumbags but the city is big enough
and well spread out enough that their is no one single central point where
there is a high concentration of people. Also there are so many different
type of people, subcultures, Tourists, foreign nationals etc that people
generally take less notice about the appearance of others.

Here in Limerick you have a few freaky looking types, a few metalers and bikers, a few sk8r types the odd hippy, crusty, arty type. Foreign Nationals kinda stick out
a bit but have not integrated into society enough to be generalized or
stereotyped so that leaves Knackers and your average joe who's appearance is
kind of generic and does not stand out in a crowd.

Your average Joe walking down the street will probably notice a biker/freak/sk8r
as they stand out but because their numbers are few and far between they notice
them and dismiss them. That just leaves the Knackers to notice, so they
stick out like a sore thumb and somehow the average joe things there are loads
of them.

Does that make any sense whatsoever or am a mumbling like a mad man?

I think the new plans for the city will help this. It will expand the city
center offer different focal points for the city and cause people not
to clump up as much. It may ease peoples perceptions of the evil knack knacks.

~B

Amazotheamazing

Liam Byrne wrote:

Misleading....do a Google search for "boundary extension Limerick"....up to 90% of Limerick's suburban population is outside the "official" total, which skews both the above reference and the crime stats.

Up to 90%? get away out of that Liam, I've argued for the boundary extension too long to be fooled by a % like that. Anyhow, it's disingenious of you to compare a city the size of Dublin to the city the size of Limerick.

We need to stop being overly sensitive about this and admit to ourselves that some of the very worst people in Ireland live a few estates around the city. Hopefully the FitzGerald report will go some way to rectifying this but we collectively need to face up to the problem.

Liam Byrne

Amazotheamazing wrote:

Up to 90%? get away out of that Liam, I've argued for the boundary extension too long to be fooled by a % like that.

"The population of Limerick city and the immediate urban area (environs/suburbs) is 90,778 (based on the 2006 census carried out by the CSO), of which 52,560 live within the city limits and 38,218 live in the city's environs in both County Limerick and County Clare".

Maybe I could have phrased it a little better, but that's a straight 42% living outside the city boundaries.......meaning that the figure for "outside the city"-dwellers is 84% of the figure for the city dwellers.

Those are the EXACT figures.....sorry if it was a little on the high side, but 6% off based on 2006 figures would probably mean a maximum of 3% off by now.

And for the record I don't compare it directly to Dublin.....not even the Government does that, because (as stated before) for Dublin they mention "the Dublin Metropolitan area", which includes the non-official-city suburbs, therefore a lower percentage of crime per population......if they did the same in Limerick, I'd be happy - but for some reason they [conveniently] don't.

As for being "disingenuous" for daring to compare the two.....I'm not sure how or why you think it is ? Surely if some sections of the media persist in claiming that Limerick is very bad in relation to crime, it's only fair to look at the stats to find out if they are right ?

And funnily enough, the consistent finding is that they are not.

http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/2006/11/20/story18672.asp

vkid

anyone see Nationwide this evening (ya i know..)? Very good programme on Limerick and Clare with all the main attractions shown very well by RTE. Hope some of the doubters saw it! Put a VERY good impression of the city and environs out there including the street ambassadors, King Johns Castle, St Mafrys Cathedral,Hunt Museum, Bunratty, Ailwee Caves etc. I know RTE have not been always kind but this was very good from them and shows they do have some balance. credit where its due!

Liam Byrne

vkid wrote:

anyone see Nationwide this evening (ya i know..)? Very good programme on Limerick and Clare with all the main attractions shown very well by RTE. Hope some of the doubters saw it! Put a VERY good impression of the city and environs out there including the street ambassadors, King Johns Castle, St Mafrys Cathedral,Hunt Museum, Bunratty, Ailwee Caves etc. I know RTE have not been always kind but this was very good from them and shows they do have some balance. credit where its due!

Unfortunately didn't see it, but with Bunratty & The Ailwee Caves being in Co. Clare, does it mean that they're being consistent in exaggerating what they credit us with

Oh - programme was about both......fair enough, I guess, since one of last year's murders attributed to Limerick actually happened in Co. Clare

Amazotheamazing

Liam Byrne wrote:

"The population of Limerick city and the immediate urban area (environs/suburbs) is 90,778 (based on the 2006 census carried out by the CSO), of which 52,560 live within the city limits and 38,218 live in the city's environs in both County Limerick and County Clare".

Maybe I could have phrased it a little better, but that's a straight 42% living outside the city boundaries.......meaning that the figure for "outside the city"-dwellers is 84% of the figure for the city dwellers.

Those are the EXACT figures.....sorry if it was a little on the high side, but 6% off based on 2006 figures would probably mean a maximum of 3% off by now.

And for the record I don't compare it directly to Dublin.....not even the Government does that, because (as stated before) for Dublin they mention "the Dublin Metropolitan area", which includes the non-official-city suburbs, therefore a lower percentage of crime per population......if they did the same in Limerick, I'd be happy - but for some reason they [conveniently] don't.

As for being "disingenuous" for daring to compare the two.....I'm not sure how or why you think it is ? Surely if some sections of the media persist in claiming that Limerick is very bad in relation to crime, it's only fair to look at the stats to find out if they are right ?

And funnily enough, the consistent finding is that they are not.

http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/2006/11/20/story18672.asp

Liam you said up to 90% of the cities pop lives outside the city, as you later prove, that's just plain wrong and takes away from the rest of your argument, regardless of how you try and change the obvious meaning of what you typed.

We as a city need to face up to the fact that we're home to some of the State's most violent persons. The Prime Time pointed out that it was localised to 4 estates, if anything, they were being overly fair.

Liam Byrne

Amazotheamazing wrote:

Liam you said up to 90% of the cities pop lives outside the city

No I didn't - you're misquoting me.

I said, and I quote: "90% of Limerick's suburban population is outside the "official" total"....

I was implying that if you took the areas commonly viewed as "the suburbs", you would find that most of them are actually outside the city altogether.

e.g. Raheen/Dooradoyle are 99% in the county, Castletroy/Groody are 100% in the county, Southill is in the city, Fr Russell Road and environs are 100% in the county, Caherdavin is (I believe) in the county, Shannon Banks is not in the city, etc, etc.

So if there's already a 58/42 split between city and "areas of 'city' in the county" [census figures], I was suggesting that maybe about that 8 of that "city" figure is actual suburbs (possibly areas like Rosbrien, some of Ennis Rd/Caherdavin, The Island, Rhebogue, Moyross). The 42 is roughly 84% of the 42+8, and I said 90% and later admitted that I was 6% out, so my statement is, I believe, reasonably accurate. Completely scientific ? No - I'll admit that. A rough approximation of reality ? I think so.

To quote directly from a Limerick City Council Report:

Between 1996 and 2002, a total of 6,514 dwellings were recorded by the DOEHLG as having been built in Limerick City. However the Census
of population for the year 2002 records that only 2,248 houses were
built within the City and the total number of houses rose by only 1,800
during the period. The discrepancy arises because many people living
in the suburbs incorrectly believe themselves to be living within the
City.

I'm not sticking my head in the sand here.....just looking for the actual crime stats (and accurate reporting of same) so that we can stand over them and work from there, without constantly being defensive and saying "it's not as bad as reported, so therefore maybe it's not so bad"......in reality, Limerick's crime is comparable to every other city bar Dublin (which is a lot worse but appears better because it's a percentage of "the greater Dublin area" population), but in my view even that's not good enough, since overall the levels of serious crime is rising unabated and must be stopped somehow.

Sierra Oscar

Darn I missed it - anywhere where I can watch it?

Poxyshamrock

Sierra Oscar wrote:

Darn I missed it - anywhere where I can watch it?

Possibly on www.rte.ie

Amazotheamazing

Liam Byrne wrote:

No I didn't - you're misquoting me.

I said, and I quote: "90% of Limerick's suburban population is outside the "official" total"....




I'm not sticking my head in the sand here.....just looking for the actual crime stats (and accurate reporting of same) so that we can stand over them and work from there, without constantly being defensive and saying "it's not as bad as reported, so therefore maybe it's not so bad"......in reality, Limerick's crime is comparable to every other city bar Dublin (which is a lot worse but appears better because it's a percentage of "the greater Dublin area" population), but in my view even that's not good enough, since overall the levels of serious crime is rising unabated and must be stopped somehow.

Say Limericks population is (truly) 90,000. 90% of that is 81,000 people. There are not 81,000 people in Limericks immediate suburbs. At a pinch, some 40,000 people are not included in the city stats, as the official city figure is 54,000, so 40,000 is about 45%. Unless you can find a way to make 54,000 people only 10% of Limerick's population, the entire premise is flawed, as clearly, only 45% of Limerick's suburban population lives outside the city boundary. I can see what you're trying to say by stating the population of the suburbs is 84% of the city's population, but it honestly looks like you're back-tracking, as that inference cannot be reasonably drawn from the line you quoted above.

Getting back to comparing like with like, I've never argued there is a media bias but we let that obscure the fact that there's also a lot of horrific things happening in these estates that we've no way to deal with. We need to stop saying "everywhere else is as bad" and start asking "how can we stop things from getting worse".

Sierra Oscar

Poxyshamrock wrote:

Possibly on www.rte.ie

I searched in the Prime Time archive - what week was it?

Liam Byrne

Sorry Amazo - again, that's not what I said, and what we are both saying is almost equivalent.

There are not 81,000 people in Limericks immediate suburbs.

Agreed.

At a pinch, some 40,000 people are not included in the city stats, as the official city figure is 54,000, so 40,000 is about 45%.

Agreed

Unless you can find a way to make 54,000 people only 10% of Limerick's population, the entire premise is flawed, as clearly, only 45% of Limerick's suburban population lives outside the city boundary.

This is where we seem to have our wires crossed.

54,000 is the WHOLE city (inside the boundary). Some of those are in suburbia, but most are not. The people who would view themselves as being "in the city", not suburbia, are excluded from the equation that I had - people living within the city - apartments, estates within the city not bordering the county, etc.

I said "90% of Limerick's suburban population is outside the official total"; I did not say "urban", but "suburban".

If that 90% should indeed be 84%, then the calculation is as follows:

Your figures: Population is 90,000, 54,000 inside the city boundary, with another 40,000 in "the suburbs" outside the city.

Of the 54,000, lots of those are not in suburbia, but in the city centre or estates within the city. Since very few areas of the city border the county, I was suggesting that only about 7,500 people within the boundary can be classed as being in the suburbs. So with 40,000 + 7,500 in the suburbs, the 40,000 is 84% of the total suburban population.

But it is roughly 42% of the OVERALL population.

The problem is that viewing Limerick as 50,000 people gives double the percentage of crime stats.

Regardless of the intricacies of the calculation, the resultant comparision of Limerick to Blanchardstown (as posted) or wherever is completely wrong, and even if we ignore my over-simplification and take your straightforward figures, the crime rate would appear to be almost doubled.

Add to that that Limerick's crime rate is exaggerated by a feud that affects only a tiny, tiny minority (as distinct from more general crime which would put everyone at risk) and you could almost remove that from general crime stats....anyone will agree that Limerick is as safe as, if not safer, than most places.

But I do agree that in an ideal world even one crime should be dealt with, and the time taken up by Garda resources on the feud is likely to mean that we have less Gardai available to look after normal, law-abiding people, so it is actually in Limerick's interests to somehow get it sorted out.