Quick Q' for coolwings.

vectra

As you know I bough a new Hong Nor CRT truggy. with a GO.28 engine installed.
I was reccomended to use 25% nitro in it as it is big block.
anyhow. you know it is difficult for me to get nitro down here so i got some 20% coolpower from Noel Barret today. You reckon it would be ok?
Guy in th euk says it is heli fuel and would not be good enough for the truggy engine but i think he is only dreaming..

g5hn710m4xpdwy

Gwan, Try it out. You can only have a disaster:p

vectra

Flunked wrote:

Gwan, Try it out. You can only have a disaster:p

I intend trying it out.. Just wondering what the Doctor of Nitro thought about it..

g5hn710m4xpdwy

I predict:

<long theory about the oil to nitro ratio and what type of oil is in it and more of it>
But try it out!
/end Coolwings moment

coolwings

As far as I know Coolpower has 15% or 17% oil depending on which one you got.
That is enough lubricant to safeguard your engine provided you don't lean it out too far.
But you'd never do that, just to go faster, eh? :-)

Should be fine ...

vectra

coolwings wrote:

As far as I know Coolpower has 15% or 17% oil depending on which one you got.
That is enough lubricant to safeguard your engine provided you don't lean it out too far.
But you'd never do that, just to go faster, eh? :-)

Should be fine ...

No, I dont think I will need to lean this one out too much. .28 should be fast enough for me this time..:D

Yeah, I think it is the 17% oil one I got. Must check tomorow.

Thanks

coolwings

Actually ... if it is set rich .. 10% oil is enough.
Not many have the dicipline required for it though!
I myself would rather run on low nitro juice leaned out, than high cost high nitro juice set at very rich.

vectra

€35 for this gallon..
Yes I know..American Gallon..:D

Still cheaper than the Tornado I bought last year.. €60 a gallon :eek:

coolwings

Yes .. the high nitro costs a bit as most Irish shops don't have significant volume in to to get costs down..

But from Green Hobby in Dublin:
Bekra 20 20% nitro 18% EDL/Klotz 4.551L 1 gall E32.50

4.551 liters Imperial gallon = 30% more than 3.5 litre US gallon container.
So that Bekra 20 is E12.50 lower cost than the Coolpower 20 when measured in full gallons.

Not sure how much you use but at that difference it would be worth your while to get it by the case of 4 galls from Green Hobby and save almost 50 smackerooneys per case. A pal who commutes is what you need.

vectra

Never heard of Bekra..!
But still . as you said yourself.
Nitro is Nitro..:cool:

And 50 Smackers is 50 Smackers at the end of the day :eek:

Will see what I can do about transport.

coolwings

GoGlo Plus and Bekra are identical in the way the engine runs.
They are both designed for high revving engines, and therefore they work well in helis and trucks where nitro is over 16%.
GoGlo Plus uses EDL synthetic oil Bekra uses Klotz synthetic oil. Both are top class oils.

The synthetic fuel at GreenHobbyModel with 16% nitro or under, is GoGlo Plus.
The synthetic fuel at GreenHobbyModel with 20% - 25% nitro is Bekra, GoGlo Plus and Unlimited Race Special (also used by YS engines).
The synthetic fuel at GreenHobbyModel between 30% - 65% nitro is Unlimited Special.

vectra

OK,
Is there any way you can send down a small quantity even to me as a test ? I will pay all costs.
I just dont want to end up with 4 gallons if I cannot get my engines running right on it.

coolwings

I'll see what I can do after the weekend.

vectra

coolwings wrote:

I'll see what I can do after the weekend.

Good stuff.

We can then work on getting 4 or more gallons down :cool:

vectra

coolwings wrote:

I'll see what I can do after the weekend.

Did you check anything out for me yet?
Few lads down here with nitros now and will be needing fuel for them. :cool:

vectra

A guy in the UK that mixes his own fuel gave this description of MT Heli fuel..
What do you think Coolwings?

As far as aero fuel goes, it is not the correct fuel to use in a high reving serface engine. Aero fuel uses different oil in and a different blend oil and it breaks down a lot earlier than surface oil, even though aero fuel has a higher oil content it is far less effective at protecting your engine because the oil that is in has broken down thus rendering the oil useless.

Aero fuel for aerovehicles.

Surface fuel for serface vehicles.

And use Byron fuel if you can't mix it yourself.

coolwings

If he was right, we would need different fuel for automobiles, different fuel for motorcycles.

Quote:even though aero fuel has a higher oil content it is far less effective at protecting your engine
So higher oil content is LESS effective at protecting (ie lubricating) engines? Really?

Quote: because the oil that is in has broken down thus rendering the oil useless Hmmm ... oil doesn't break down (like a car? ), it lubricates and cools. Oil burns if it goes over 800 degrees celsius, or oil deteriorates if mixed with water, but we don't do that in our model engines, except when they run out of fuel ... when no fuel (and no oil too) enters the engine just as it runs out of juice, raising temps and decreasing lubrication just before the cutout, which is how most beginners get a seize while running in.

Quote: Aero fuel for aerovehicles. So he is telling us a high revving heli with a cooling fan and a heatsink head is same as a low revving aircooled aero propeller aircraft engine. Really?

Think about it a little .... Maybe the heli high revver with cooling head might just be more like another high revving truck engine with a heatsink head? :-)

BTW ... is a boat engine a aero or a surface engine according to this source?

The bottom line ... it doesn't matter what you use an engine for ... you have to lube and cool it, and feed it methanol and oil.
If air is in short supply, given the rate you want to burn the fuel at, a little nitro helps substitute for oxygen which is free, at a cost.
If cooling air or water is in short supply given the heat you generate doing the job required, then more oil helps to take heat out when it is discharged from the exhaust. But the oil doesn't burn and make power, so you try to prevent using too much oil.
Finally if the temps get too high, castor oil burns at a higher temp than the "superior" synthetics, so castor based fuel is more robust than synthetic fuel ,however at correct temps the synthetic fuel lubes beter, so it is preferable when things are set right, to use synthetic with a trace of castor added.
To put it another way, synthetic fuel is better after you know what you're doing.

All the rest ... marketing talk .... designed to make people pay over the odds for fancy label fuel, and pay for the sponsorship at races that then catches the easily impressed "beginners who copy the winner" because they don't know he is being paid to say "this label is better fuel than all the rest".
If any one label was truly better ... all the others would be gone out of business long ago. can you imagine Esso saying Texaco or Shell is no good .. they would never do that because drivers would consider such a statement laughable. But modellers are younger and still have a lot to learn.....

vectra

I actually went to Galway yesterday to see the National round and was quite impressed by the performance of a buggy running an OS21 engine running on Coolpower 20% Heli fuel..
You could spot that thing a mile off.. HUGE trail of smoke out of it..
There was another lad running 15% coolpower and he was going well also.

The rest were using either Byrons or O'Donnells. To be honest I could se little or no difference between them except for the lovely trail of smoke..

Actually..
This is..( SORRY ) WAS the buggy running on the heli fuel.. He was gone past before i got the pic but you will notice his trail of smoke left behind..



Spot the one running on the Heli Fuel here in this line-up :rolleyes:


Plenty of pics here..
GALWAY PICS 12-08-07

Had a great day out.. even when it was Pi$$ing out of the heavens..

No, He is not drilling for oil..
Just trying to drain off some rainwater from the track


Got a few nice truggy shots here






Looking forward to visiting Navan for their opening of the new track soon..
:cool:

hobie

vectra .... definetely warrants something on YouTube etc ..... is anyone going to put something up?....

I rem commenting on the smoke from heli's flying at the local RC field and was told it was the best way to fly them ..... I got the impression it was to provide better lubrication ? .....

coolwings

Not setting myself up as an expert on Coolpower. (My experience with it is from using other peoples engines, on the fuel they were using at the time, and I ended up working on it, or tuning it for them, etc. )
But looking at the smoke... he has I guess 15 to 18% oil ... an oil type that makes some smoke.
But the smoke is because he is burning the oil. So engine is LEAN - TUNED VERY HOT.

So the first suggestion based purely on the photos is to say, "try richening it up to reduce the temp" and thus not burn the oil.
Now he is racing so why did he lean it out so the oil burns? To go faster of course....
So can it possibly go just as fast but burn less oil? Maybe ... Imagine he had less oil, and more methanol, the propellent in model fuel. That would be more propellent in each drop of fuel. Less oil makes the engine hotter.
Now imagine he tunes it richer to cancel out the higher temp caused by having less oil. So now it runs at the same temp again.
But more methanol gets burned, and less oil.
The methanol makes no smoke. Sovwe have engine at same temp but less smoke.
More propellent burned than before, should make it go faster even though it would be a click or two richer.

Now that is all said without knowing what kind of oil is in the Coolpower fuel. As you know for synthetic oils I personally prefer, EDL, Klotz and ML70. But it might interest some readers to see it put like that.

Looks to me like the Coolpower oil might have a low-ish burning temp (assuming yer man hasn't leaned it out to the nth degree!). Hence the smoke.

I heard of an occasion where a heli flier was hovering on (Model Technics) Go Glo Plus. Not making much smoke.
A Tornado fuel heli user ran out shouting stop, land, you have it too lean you are damaging your engine, etc.
The GoGlo Plus flier landed and they checked by putting a finger on the cylinder head, but the engine was cool and just fine.
The other guy assumed because there was no smoke that the engine was too lean. Incorrectly assumed. ... Because GoGlo Plus makes less smoke than the fuel he was used to - at the correct running temp. He assumed you have to see smoke to know you are rich enough. He was correct with his Tornado juice, but not with the Model Technics GoGlo Plus which makes less smoke/oils are more robust. Nitro was the same in both cases by the way.

So does smoke mean it is set rich and lots of oil is going in ..... or does it mean that most of the oil going in boiled into a gas, failed to lubricate because it's no longer wet, and then burnt together with the methanol-nitro aersol gas to make power and heat? It can be either.

So with synthetic oils, the quality of the synthetic oil is very important. Saying "synthetic" on the label doesn't tell enough, there is low grade synthetic and high grade synthetic oil.
Factors that matter are solubility, covering power, viscosity at working temps, boiling temp, combustion (burn) temp, cost.
Notice I put cost last! For a superior synthetic fuel, the synthetic oil used should be the best synthetic, not just say "this is the best" on the label, or marketing hype!

However the lower grade fuels seem to get huge hype, and be sold for outrageous prices every day, based on the claims, not the performance. This is because modellers are novices at the technology they use.

Myself .... I would prefer castor to low grade synthetic. But after it is run in (always on castor), I prefer synthetic.

vectra

Damn you and your confusing replys.. :eek:

Bottom line then

I think I saw 20% oil on his canister ?

The one I bought is
Coolpower 20%
even though on Morgans website MORGANFUELS It only shows 20% Heli fuel
Which has the following ingredients
20% Nitro... 20% Lube.. High Viscosity.
From what I can gather on their website coolpower is purely Synthetic.

Just read the details of the Sidewinder (Backyard Basher) fuel
Sounds exactly like the Heli blend


Outside of the fact that

A) Bekra is cheaper

Bekra is supplied by GMH

C) We can possibly organise transport down for the Bekra to me

Which do you think I should use?


Simple answer please..

coolwings

How about ... try the Bekra 20, see if you like it.
Sometime later play with the others too.

I would be inclined to guess differences would be detectable but minor. Your own personal tuning style or nuances would probably account for more variation than differences between different premium fuel brands, once you compare one synthetic 20 with another synthetic 20.

vectra

coolwings wrote:

How about ... try the Bekra 20, see if you like it.

How about we try to get a litre down to me so as I can try it.?

vectra

coolwings wrote:

I'll see what I can do after the weekend.

Any update on getting this down to me?

I have used a couple of tanks of the 20% coolpower and it runs quite good on it considering it is on its run-in phase.

OH,!
By the way
When you asked about which oil content one i got ?
well. not too sure actually but I looked at the label and it says. 20% Heli fuel.

Still like to try a litre of your Bekra 20 on both engines.

coolwings

I checked on it ... smallest unit I can get is 1 Gall (4.55L)

On the Morgan 20% . I assume that means 20% nitro, and their 20% nitro mix also has 20% oil in it. Not sure which oils, prob a synthetic-castor mix.

vectra

coolwings wrote:

I checked on it ... smallest unit I can get is 1 Gall (4.55L)

And to get it to me ??