Retrospective Bookings for Diving in Scotland

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http://www.football365.com/story/0,17033,8652_2635974,00.html

The Scottish Football Association have revealed ground-breaking plans to clamp down on cheats by handing out retrospective bookings for diving.

Referees will watch recordings of the games they officiate and award yellow cards for incidents of 'simulation' they may have missed.

Now, this is excellent news, and something, which if proves successful, should be introduced everywhere.

Kingp35

That's a great idea. Hopefully it works out.

Mitch Connor

Agreed - I wonder what the yellows will mean though.

If the player was booked in the match for a bad tackle or something, does the retrospective yellow make it a red?

I can also see the system failing a lot of the time. I think most of the time, there will be at least some element of doubt involved, and can they retrospectively book a player if there is any doubt? Also, what exactly will they be booking? Plain and simple diving, or player 'going down' easily too - I don't particularly like players going down easily, but for the term to be applied, they actually do have to have been obstruckted or fouled, they are just making the most of the contact to insure the ref saw it and gives a free. Should they be yellowed for that too? And if so, how and where do you draw the line. remember, a player doesn't have to be touched for a foul to be commited - they opposing player only has to commit to a challenge that obstructs the player in a way that stops them continuing their run (easy example in my head is Robbie Fowler getting a penalty for Liverpool years back having jumped over Seaman. No contact was made but a foul was technically commited due Seaman forcing Fowler to hurdle him, and lose possesion, without getting the ball)

I would say there are very few clear cut cases in a season.

One Cold Hand

I think it's a great to see this coming in. Hopefully it will be successful. Obviously in the past there were a few debatable ones, but the point is that if players know there is a chance that they will be booked after the game, then hopefully they will be less inclined to either dive or go down easily.

LostinBlanch

Great idea, and about time too. I assume the yellows won't count for subsequent matches, but will just go on the players disciplinary record and they will be suspended when they get to five yellows. Or something like that.

PDN

If they bring this in to the English Premiership then Drogba will only get to play about 6 matches per season in between all his suspensions.

PauloMN

PDN wrote:

If they bring this in to the English Premiership then Drogba will only get to play about 6 matches per season in between all his suspensions.

Ditto Ronaldo.

I think it's a great idea.

Mr Alan

Think its a great idea, but to be honest I'd have my doubts if it would work. Too hard to call wats a dive and wats not in most circumstances.

Zapp Brannigan

Tauren wrote:

(easy example in my head is Robbie Fowler getting a penalty for Liverpool years back having jumped over Seaman. No contact was made but a foul was technically commited due Seaman forcing Fowler to hurdle him, and lose possesion, without getting the ball)

Wasn't that the one where Fowler instantly got up and told the ref there was no foul?

Mitch Connor

Zapp Brannigan wrote:

Wasn't that the one where Fowler instantly got up and told the ref there was no foul?

Yep - but it technically was still a foul, according to the rules.

PHB

When you attempt to dive you can either

1. Con the ref
2. Kinda get half and half, to make it need a second look.
3. Completly **** it up and look stupid

Number 3. isn't always booked. Number 3. will now always be booked. This in turn will reduce the numbers of 1. and 2. cause they know it will have consequences.

ROCKMAN

idea seems ok

but few concerns

what happens if say Player A cons ref and is rewarded freekick or peno, and they score, PLAYER A is later found guilty of diving, and is booked, will this open up a can of worms ,ie other team have grounds to appeal result etc

PHB

I doubt it. I think the only thing that would happen is that the player is booked.

Personally, I think a 5 match ban for a definate dive would stop all diving completely.

ROCKMAN

PHB wrote:

I doubt it. I think the only thing that would happen is that the player is booked.

Personally, I think a 5 match ban for a definate dive would stop all diving completely.

Personally argee first saturday of season, in all match and leagues, come down hard, ie straight red followed by five match ban and for good measure fine the club. This will stop it

PHB

Well I mean retrospective. I don't think a 5 match ban in a game will work cause no ref would do it and risk being wrong. Retrospective 5 match bans for shocking dives will stop all forms of diving, because players just won't risk it except in a hugely important match like a cup final. We would never see it in normal league games ever again.

Personally I don't have a huge problem with going down easy. If you don't go down easy sometimes you won't get the free kick you deserve. Diving and going down easy are completely different things though.

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PHB wrote:

Diving and going down easy are completely different things though.

Yes indeed they are.

IMO, there isn't a whole lot wrong with 'going down easy', especially if there is constant fouling, and the player is actually staying on his feet, but getting nothing from the ref. If he takes a tumble the next time the defender puts a hand on him, kicks him or whatever, then fair play I say.

Again, there isn't a lot wrong with 'going down easy' in the box either. If the defender is going to be silly enough to foul in the box, then a penalty is the proper punishment. If the attacker does take a bit of a tumble to bring the referee's attention to said infringement, then again there's not a whole lot wrong with it.

Also, if a defender is silly enough to go put himself in a situation that means an attacker can 'go down easy' then more fool the defender, especially against a player with a reputation for it.

odonnell

Tauren wrote:

Agreed - I wonder what the yellows will mean though.

If the player was booked in the match for a bad tackle or something, does the retrospective yellow make it a red?

I can also see the system failing a lot of the time. I think most of the time, there will be at least some element of doubt involved, and can they retrospectively book a player if there is any doubt? Also, what exactly will they be booking? Plain and simple diving, or player 'going down' easily too - I don't particularly like players going down easily, but for the term to be applied, they actually do have to have been obstruckted or fouled, they are just making the most of the contact to insure the ref saw it and gives a free. Should they be yellowed for that too? And if so, how and where do you draw the line. remember, a player doesn't have to be touched for a foul to be commited - they opposing player only has to commit to a challenge that obstructs the player in a way that stops them continuing their run (easy example in my head is Robbie Fowler getting a penalty for Liverpool years back having jumped over Seaman. No contact was made but a foul was technically commited due Seaman forcing Fowler to hurdle him, and lose possesion, without getting the ball)

I would say there are very few clear cut cases in a season.

Without quoting the fifa rules and regs - there actually exists a cut and dry rule concerning diving, and other forms or feigning to gain unfair advantage. All this playback evidence will do is provide referees a chance ot look at dubious incidents and decide there and then if said player SHOULD have been booked for diving (a rule already supposedly implemented by fifa but rarely adhered to - a diving player is supposed to receive a straight yellow).

Any cards issued retrospectively obviously wont affect the eventual outcome of the game in question - but in Scotland we work on a points system and by crossing a threshold you incur a ban - 3 match, 5 match and so on... by having retrospective yellow cards dished out, any player runs the risk of incurring a ban and this being the case - theyd be mad to dive.

It cant fail... it seems fool proof enough to me and i welcome the idea. Without singling out teams *cough HEARTS cough* there are a growing number of diving players coming into the SPL right now.

I doubt ANY ref in Scotland would award a penalty for a keeper going to ground and the striker hurdling him - this happens every single week...and in Scotland we go by the rule of thumb - if you play the ball first, youre legal, and no keeper would be held accountable for a striker not getting to a ball first... its hardly obstruction.

eirebhoy

FIFA ISSUE SFA WARNING ON DIVING

By Martyn Ziegler, PA Chief Sports Reporter

FIFA have warned the Scottish FA that their plan to use videos of matches to hand out retrospective yellow cards for diving would contravene the rules of the game.

Scottish FA chief executive Gordon Smith yesterday announced a pilot scheme where referees would watch DVDs of their games and decide if any acts of simulation warrant cautions.

However, FIFA’s rule-book states that if a referee has seen an incident and decided it was not a dive then he cannot change his mind after the match.
Smith’s aim to introduce the scheme in January now looks to be in jeopardy.

The Scottish FA would first have to propose a rule change to the International FA Board and that does not meet until March. There is no guarantee either that they would get the rule change through what is a notoriously conservative body.

FIFA confirmed the initiative would fall foul of the current rules.

The world governing body said in a statement to PA Sport: “FIFA takes very seriously the matter of simulation and of any form of cheating in football, and actively supports and participates in many initiatives to promote fair play and eliminate cheating from our sport.

“Nevertheless, regarding this specific initiative, according to the FIFA disciplinary code, article 79, the disciplinary decisions taken by the referee on the field of play during a match are final.

“Only in certain circumstances, according to article 84, can a disciplinary committee apply certain measures. This refers specifically to incidents which have escaped the match officials’ attention.

“Taking this into account, if a referee has seen an incident during a match but determined that it was not a case of simulation, this decision taken by the referee should be considered final.”

FIFA’s stance will not go down well with Smith, who had claimed his plans to clamp down on cheats could eventually help clean up the world game. In response to today's statement from FIFA, Scottish FA Chief Executive Gordon Smith said: "I will happily discuss our plan with FIFA to explain the thinking behind it and what we hope to achieve.

"I am confident that they will see the benefits in supporting an initiative that aims to crack down on cheats in football and eradicate a widespread problem. This is a serious issue that needs to be confronted, and Scottish football could set the standard for many other countries whose game is also suffering.

"It is important to remember that we are trying this in-house to begin with, so that any issues such as this can be ironed out by a working party before the system is formally introduced in January."

ziggy

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odonnell

Sorry ziggy, but the only people worrying about impartiality are celtic fans....everyone else seems to think its a good idea to have a footballer in charge for once, and everyone knows from his commentary through the years that he is very much in favour of making changes at the highest level to get Scottish football back on the map.

Coming from a country where the two top teams are Rangers and Celtic - it isnt surprising he would have played for one of them.

Seriously - the paranoia exhibited by some of the Celtic mob back home is legendary - even when it comes to referees and tabloids.

Even if Smith IS a bias Rangers fan in charge of the national sport - you think he can exert that sort of control down to match level? Doubt it mate.

Eirebear

ziggy67 wrote:

Wouldn't happen? This is an organisation who had a previous Chief Exec fired after Celtic had to take them to court after he deliberately held up Jorge Cadette's transfer registration so he would miss an Old Firm game.
Good idea in principal though

When will they ever move on?
Gordon Smith is a football man, he has done a lot of work with celtic in his days as an agent, and hasnt screwed any team he has worked with in the way that a more "celtic minded" agent like Willie McKay has.

Should it be the case that no player who ever plays for either Rangers or Celtic can ever become an official in the scottish game?
Would that keep everyone happy?

eirebhoy

odonnell wrote:

Even if Smith IS a bias Rangers fan in charge of the national sport - you think he can exert that sort of control down to match level? Doubt it mate.

There's no "if's" about it. Smith was commentating on a Celtic game last season. While he thought he was off air the opposition had a chance. He said something like "Oh, pity they didn't score that". Of course he's biased. A similar dive from a Rangers player and a Celtic player will look different to the Rangers fan obviously. Anyway, I'm not worried about it. I'm trying to justify ziggy's paranoia though. Anyway, I think 99% of Celtic fans are happy with this. Obviously I feel Celtic paranoia is usually more justified than Rangers paranoia...but I'm biased.;) I thought Graham Speirs' comment the other day was great - "Isn't follow follow just an asylum of paranoiacs?"

ziggy

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ziggy

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Eirebear

ziggy67 wrote:

Anybody who has seen Smith doing his media work for the BBC would have no doubt that this guy has a problem with partiality. He doesn't see anything wrong with some of Rangers fans "party tunes" either which is frankly very worrying.

Time will tell whether i'm paranoid or not and i hope i am.

I don't think any football agent be it Smith, McKay, McMurdo or whoever is the right man to take over a football organisation. Can you imagine Pini Zahavi taking over the FA? Laughable! Lunatics running the asylum.

Nothing new really then

ziggy

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odonnell

hes a football man, in charge of Scottish football.

thats what everyones been crying out for, for years...and now we have it - i think we should give the man some credit as to his integrity, and give him the benefit of the doubt in that he will approach this position with the utmost professionalism to the BENEFIT OF SCOTTISH FOOTBALL ..... not to the benefit or detriment of a particular team. To believe this would be the case is very short sighted... for the first time - im disappointed in yous lads.

eirebhoy

odonnell wrote:

for the first time - im disappointed in yous lads.

I think you'll find it's only ziggy.

ziggy

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A Dub in Glasgo

Good to see this being introduced.

From the evidence of seeing Smith on football programmes in Scotland over the last decade, impartial he is not. Let us hope he surpresses that bias when in charge of the SFA.

odonnell

well...donald findlay is as orange and as bigotted as they come - but hes Queens Council and feckin good at his job. Would you object to taking his services incase hes bias against you lads? I wouldnt... cos telly is telly, a fan is a fan - but cmon guys seriously - professionalism wins through when its your work ..

eirebhoy

odonnell wrote:

well...donald findlay is as orange and as bigotted as they come - but hes Queens Council and feckin good at his job. Would you object to taking his services incase hes bias against you lads? I wouldnt... cos telly is telly, a fan is a fan - but cmon guys seriously - professionalism wins through when its your work ..

odonnell, Celtic fans are in favour of this ffs.

odonnell

dont give me smileys! argue with me dammit!!! hehe

ziggy

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eirebhoy

ziggy67 wrote:

Are you saying Celtic fans are in favour of the diving rule (which they are) or Smiths appointment (which the vast majority aren't)?

Everyone on the KDS forum is in favour of the new proposal.
The majority of Celtic supporters don't like Smith because of his obvious bias. Is that odd?

ziggy

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eirebhoy

Don't mind me. I thought I was replying to odonnell in the previous post.