Ireland Manager not attending matches involving Irish teams in European action

_blank_

Hmm.

Link

This is indicitive of the pure contempt in which the FAI and it's employees hold the league.

My comments about Steve Staunton are beyond the allowable on this board at this stage.

:mad:

Spud83

He as already said that he prefers to pick players playing the premiership or at least the championship. So why would he go and watch games and players that he is not going to pick? Too right that he should concentrate on the players he feels can play at the international level, and I'm sorry but these dont exist in League Of Ireland.

~Rebel~

It is kind of stupid to have no representitive watching though, especially at a time when Doyle, Bennett and O Donovon were all judged by english teams to be worthy of a championship/premiership move. If they're scouting our players and thinking their capable, then surely we should be too!

event

~Rebel~ wrote:

It is kind of stupid to have no representitive watching though, especially at a time when Doyle, Bennett and O Donovon were all judged by english teams to be worthy of a championship/premiership move. If they're scouting our players and thinking their capable, then surely we should be too!

maybe he has though?

i wont always believe what dermot keely says

_blank_

No, no, no. You see, Irish players playing in the LoI only become good enough for the Irish team when they fly through the Magic Make Me A Better Player Portal located half way accross the Irish Sea that they pass through on their way to play in Britain.

It is also passed down through generations, so that players with Irish ancestors, who also passed through the portal, are good enough also.

In the land of the lepregoon, this magic doesn't exist.

Spud83

~Rebel~ wrote:

It is kind of stupid to have no representitive watching though, especially at a time when Doyle, Bennett and O Donovon were all judged by english teams to be worthy of a championship/premiership move. If they're scouting our players and thinking their capable, then surely we should be too!

But you cant just jump from league of ireland to internationals or to the premiership/championship. You need time adjust which you dont get at international level, but you can get after joining an english club.

If the English clubs bring them over then great but then they need to prove themselves over there by getting into to the team and doing well (like Doyle) before they should be considered for internationals. Also the level of training and prepeartion in the League Of Ireland is no where close to the standards of Premiership/Championship clubs ensure an even harder step up to international level.

Spud83

seansouth wrote:

No, no, no. You see, Irish players playing in the LoI only become good enough for the Irish team when they fly through the Magic Make Me A Better Player Portal located half way accross the Irish Sea that they pass through on their way to play in Britain.

It is also passed down through generations, so that players with Irish ancestors, who also passed through the portal, are good enough also.

In the land of the lepregoon, this magic doesn't exist.

That was honestly the most idotic attempt at making a point I have ever seen.
Its not not even an argument, just spouting a load of crap.

Off course players improve when the move to English clubs, better training, preperation, coaching, being beside better players thats what helps them make the step up.

~Rebel~

alanmurphy83 wrote:

But you cant just jump from league of ireland to internationals or to the premiership/championship. You need time adjust which you dont get at international level, but you can get after joining an english club.

If the English clubs bring them over then great but then they need to prove themselves over there by getting into to the team and doing well (like Doyle) before they should be considered for internationals. Also the level of training and prepeartion in the League Of Ireland is no where close to the standards of Premiership/Championship clubs ensure an even harder step up to international level.

thats all well and good, its a very good reason to not select them for full international duty, it is not however a reason to completely ignore them. How do you ever know how players are progressing if you never even watch them. Surely it makes much more sense to have a dosier made up on all of these players so if they make a move you know their starting position, you know their rate of development in Ireland and following this you know how much they develope in the weeks and months in England. Football is a science now, you cant just ignore the Irish teams and let the english managers do all the work, then trusting their judgement when they think they're ready for their teams

Bottom line is we should know our own players better then the english scouts, we should already have plenty of knowledge in the event of them doing something to show they mite be ready. It just strikes me as a bit lazy and ignorant the way they go about it.

(Now of course as Event points out, maybe they are doing this, but i haven't heard anything of it. To be honest Id be delighted to be corrected.)

astrofool

It's cos they're sh*te. Happy?

Spud83

~Rebel~ wrote:

thats all well and good, its a very good reason to not select them for full international duty, it is not however a reason to completely ignore them. How do you ever know how players are progressing if you never even watch them. Surely it makes much more sense to have a dosier made up on all of these players so if they make a move you know their starting position, you know their rate of development in Ireland and following this you know how much they develope in the weeks and months in England. Football is a science now, you cant just ignore the Irish teams and let the english managers do all the work, then trusting their judgement when they think they're ready for their teams

Bottom line is we should know our own players better then the english scouts, we should already have plenty of knowledge in the event of them doing something to show they mite be ready. It just strikes me as a bit lazy and ignorant the way they go about it.

(Now of course as Event points out, maybe they are doing this, but i haven't heard anything of it. To be honest Id be delighted to be corrected.)

All good points put giving out that the manager isn't doing it is wrong. First of all it would be the job of the underage setup to track the developement of the younger playes and then it would be their job to pass up all knowledge of players the feel are worth tracking to the senior set up. The continued tracking of these players would then be the focus of senior scouts who I'm sure are part of the current set up.

The manager should concentrate on a core group of players that are in contention for his squads, after that is up to his assistants and scouts to track the other players and keep the manager informed. Football is a science and thats why he needs to know his starting eleven and squad members inside out. Which is a big enough job.

~Rebel~

I wasn't talking about the manager, i was more saying Representitives in general, which as i said im open to correction that there may be but it doesnt seem like it.

Mr Alan

I see where both sides are coming from. But i for one, would prefer to see Stan (who, for the record i dislike as much as the next man!) spend his time scouting players at the highest possible level. ie. Premiership and Championship.
His chances of finding future successful international players there are 1000 times better than him scouting the LOI week in week out in order to appease LOI fans.
Playing for ones country is a massive achievement, and i would be of the opinion that in order to play for Ireland, you would need to be good enough to be playing at a high level in England.

Hobart

seansouth wrote:

No, no, no. You see, Irish players playing in the LoI only become good enough for the Irish team when they fly through the Magic Make Me A Better Player Portal located half way accross the Irish Sea that they pass through on their way to play in Britain.

It is also passed down through generations, so that players with Irish ancestors, who also passed through the portal, are good enough also.

In the land of the lepregoon, this magic doesn't exist.

Are you even half serious? (And I'm not talking about your attempt at irony here)

Keely seems to have an issue with the "lack of respect" that stan has shown because he has failed to attend any meaningless games that involved UEFA cup qualification or, shame upon shame, intertoto cup matches!!!

And yet, Stan has wasted his time looking at Irish qualified players playing in the premiership with Sunderland in friendlies.

I'm a long term follower of a LOI team, who happened to have quite a successful run in Europe last year, but I know as a punter where my priorities are. And I have to be honest, if I thought Stan was looking to the LOI for "up and coming players" he's more of a fool than I actually thought he was.

Spud83

~Rebel~ wrote:

I wasn't talking about the manager, i was more saying Representitives in general, which as i said im open to correction that there may be but it doesnt seem like it.

Sorry for what was probably an aggresive tone towards your post. But the OP was about the manager and thats where i was coming from.

jesus_thats_gre

seansouth wrote:

No, no, no. You see, Irish players playing in the LoI only become good enough for the Irish team when they fly through the Magic Make Me A Better Player Portal located half way accross the Irish Sea that they pass through on their way to play in Britain.

No, this is when they actually prove they are anyway decent.

The LOI is light years behind the PL or Championship and always will be. Time to accept it.

Mezcita

astrofool wrote:

It's cos they're sh*te. Happy?

Agreed.

Jonny Arson

seansouth wrote:

Hmm.

Link

This is indicitive of the pure contempt in which the FAI and it's employees hold the league.

My comments about Steve Staunton are beyond the allowable on this board at this stage.

:mad:

of course Dermo 100% spot again, it's absolutely madness that the manager of the Irish national football team 1)won't bother to analyze prospective international talents by attending matches involving teams from his own nations league 2) (the insane bit) while there is absolutely zero cross channel competitive football happening..... what the hell has he being doing during June/July :rolleyes: , Steve Staunton is the philosophical god of the barstoolers

Zebra3

In fairness, the standard of the league is piss poor this year compared to the last few years.

There is no-one good enough (who's eligible) at Drogheda, Pat's, or Derry to play for Ireland and as for the players at Cork...I wouldn't judge anyone on Intertoto performances. Joke competition.

Tbh, it's probably just as well he hasn't gone to any of the games.

LostinBlanch

Jonny Arson wrote:

of course Dermo 100% spot again, it's absolutely madness that the manager of the Irish national football team 1)won't bother to analyze prospective international talents by attending matches involving teams from his own nations league 2) (the insane bit) while there is absolutely zero cross channel competitive football happening..... what the hell has he being doing during June/July :rolleyes:

Exactly, four hundred grand a year and you expect him to work??? God forbid! But don't worry he'll roll up to RTE for another pitifully easy interview with Des Cahill just to prove he's alive and not one of the waxwork dummys that was stolen / damaged last week.

Common sense would dictate that he should bring someone like Roy O'Donovan over to meaningless matches like the USA tour rather than bring some US college kid who no one had ever heard of before or since, and is now apparently opting to play for the US (if I heard right on newstalk during the week). It's not like players were queueing up to go was it?

GuanYin

Was thinking about this the other day. I was at a SuperLiga game the other night in a brand new MLS stadium.

Stadium holds around 20K so its comparable to LoI stadia I imagine. The facilities were fantastic, there was a big screen, music, good policing and a carnival atmosphere for what was effectively a jumped up friendly game.

Anyways, the traing and preparation by the players in the hour or so preceding the game was far above anything I've seen in LoI before games or in sessions (and I used to watch UCD train the odd time). So I quite happily agree that the training and coaching in the premiership and championship would be above LoI, hell if MLS is above it, then the championship must be.

When LoI start running their shop properly, then they will get the respect they deserve.

Jonny Arson

Zebra3 wrote:

In fairness, the standard of the league is piss poor this year compared to the last few years.

There is no-one good enough (who's eligible) at Drogheda, Pat's, or Derry to play for Ireland and as for the players at Cork...I wouldn't judge anyone on Intertoto performances. Joke competition.

Tbh, it's probably just as well he hasn't gone to any of the games.

no one is disputing the standard amongst the top teams has dropped this season but there are still players playing in eL that could be of potential to play international level, Gamble, O'Donovan to name a couple

my gripe is that no Irish manager has ever given the eircom league a fair crack of the whip and sadly with Staunton this is not changing

Staunton picked Joe Gamble for the US tour in June and Graham Gartland i believe was planned to be in that same squad..... surely as a practice of competent management Staunton should have been checking up on these players and other eL players like Roy O'Donovan during June/July especially when there is no English football happening?

is the whole Kevin Doyle saga not enough of a lesson for Irish management? Kevin Doyle should have been long overdue wakeup call for the FAI that are talented, International standard players in this league.

all i want to see is Irish management take the league seriously and give the players a chance by watching their progress, not bothering your hole to go and watch some matches is unacceptable. it is a shame that the Irish national team has missed out on talented players such as Wes Hoolahan and Owen Heary in favour of talentless muck such as Gary Doherty and John Macken because of pure ignorant attitudes by FAI management towards the dmoestic league and this is continuing under Staunton.

lets just see how long after Roy O'Donovan pens his contract for an English team that he suddenly is good enough for Irish national team!

Jonny Arson

psi wrote:

Was thinking about this the other day. I was at a SuperLiga game the other night in a brand new MLS stadium.

Stadium holds around 20K so its comparable to LoI stadia I imagine. The facilities were fantastic, there was a big screen, music, good policing and a carnival atmosphere for what was effectively a jumped up friendly game.

Anyways, the traing and preparation by the players in the hour or so preceding the game was far above anything I've seen in LoI before games or in sessions (and I used to watch UCD train the odd time). So I quite happily agree that the training and coaching in the premiership and championship would be above LoI, hell if MLS is above it, then the championship must be.

When LoI start running their shop properly, then they will get the respect they deserve.

RESPECT??? comparing the richest nation of 250+ million to a nation of 4+ million where 95% of their football ''supporters'' don't support their own league is frankly outrageous!

can you please tell me where LOI clubs are meant to get this money to improve stadia, improve entertainment and to improve coaching when a small minority of Irish football ''supporters'' bother come through the turnstiles? I've got some breaking news - Money does not grow on trees especially in Irish football

the MLS is franchise league with a serious amount of investor and corporate dollars behind it, the money is there for them to build 20k seater stadia, the money is there to have large screens and provide a carnival atmosphere...... and the money is somehow there to pay David Beckham's wages! All of this in place before anyone comes through the turnstiles, lucky them.

some people can't grasp the simple and obvious fact that football depends on people supporting their league come rail, hail, shine or **** facilities. England and Scotland (similar population to us) had crap facilities pre-90s but because they had a dedicated solid base of supporters over the decades then the money, the facilities and the investors flowed like no tomorrow. If so many Irish football fans had not dumped supporting their own league from the 80's onwards for the colour of Sky Sports football through their TVs screens and the resulting English football obsession culture then this league would be in better shape, better facilities, better marketing all what the barstoolers demand before the actual football on the pitch.

also on your point about UCD and their training sessions, UCD are a fully part-time team with a tiny shoestring budget and they simply cannot employ expensive coaches. UCD probably operate on budget of around 300k per annum at most, MLS clubs probably have a budget 30 -50 times that. Taking into consideration the relative standard of leagues, an MLS side (Championship standard) and UCD (mid table League 1 to League 2 standard) are competing in, UCD and all Eircom League clubs are seriously punching above their weight under difficult circumstances.

Is that not enough to gain ''respect'' or do you have to have all expensive fancy materialistic facilities from money that grows on trees to gain ''respect''?

gustavo

millersangel wrote:

the LOI week in week out in order to appease LOI fans.
Playing for ones country is a massive achievement, and i would be of the opinion that in order to play for Ireland, you would need to be good enough to be playing at a high level in England.

Are you allowed to play in any other country or is England the only country on which you can be judged to play for our country?

GuanYin

Jonny Arson wrote:

RESPECT??? comparing the richest nation of 250+ million to a nation of 4+ million where 95% of their football ''supporters'' don't support their own league is frankly outrageous!

Well thats the odd thing, soccer is a minority sport in the US, americans, quite frankly, aren't interested, yet somehow they manage to get more bums on seats than a football mad nation. Of course, your assertion is that its the supporters fault for being disloyal, but as has been said before, football is a business, at least it seems to be viewed as a business everywhere else but LoI...where the fans see it as some sort of national duty to support the league (but, ironically, not the national team).

can you please tell me where LOI clubs are meant to get this money to improve stadia, improve entertainment and to improve coaching when a small minority of Irish football ''supporters'' bother come through the turnstiles? I've got some breaking news - Money does not grow on trees especially in Irish football

The FAI for one, better TV rights deals and investors. But for any of that to happen, the LoI needs to look at things such as "promotion", "marketing" and "business plans". Maybe if they started doing the simple basics of business right and sold their product well, they may get more of these "supporters" you feel they deserve.

the MLS is franchise league with a serious amount of investor and corporate dollars behind it, the money is there for them to build 20k seater stadia, the money is there to have large screens and provide a carnival atmosphere...... and the money is somehow there to pay David Beckham's wages! All of this in place before anyone comes through the turnstiles, lucky them.

Yes, but it is still a profit making business enterprise and they're getting the investment because they are smart people with business. The MLS know that the league has alot of work to do to catch up with other fan sports here and make money back for their investors. They do this by promoting the sport and doing it well, going to schools, appearing in adverts, TV shows, whatever they can get. Do you see LoI sending players out or marketing players? No.
What schoolboy wants to support a player they've never heard of?

Not so long ago, Jason Sherlock was a household name for the GAA, where and when did he ever appear in LoI colours? What about Geoghan, WOH etc etc etc?

some people can't grasp the simple and obvious fact that football depends on people supporting their league come rail, hail, shine or **** facilities.

No, football depends on marketing a business product, the big clubs realised this and hence we got the premiership. The EL didn't accept this and hence you have the LoI.

When UK attendances fell lately, did they blame the fans? No, the clubs knew it was *their* job to do something to get people back in the stadiums. Why? Because football is a business and football clubs are businesses.

England and Scotland (similar population to us) had crap facilities pre-90s but because they had a dedicated solid base of supporters over the decades then the money, the facilities and the investors flowed like no tomorrow.

Rubbish, the reason the premiership was formed was for precisely the opposite reasons, the attendances were at an all time low and they clubs we're making money.

If so many Irish football fans had not dumped supporting their own league from the 80's onwards for the colour of Sky Sports football through their TVs screens and the resulting English football obsession culture then this league would be in better shape, better facilities, better marketing all what the barstoolers demand before the actual football on the pitch.

If the LoI ran the league like a business and the clubs followed suit, then maybe more people would have stayed with LoI clubs.

also on your point about UCD and their training sessions, UCD are a fully part-time team with a tiny shoestring budget and they simply cannot employ expensive coaches. UCD probably operate on budget of around 300k per annum at most, MLS clubs probably have a budget 30 -50 times that. Taking into consideration the relative standard of leagues, an MLS side (Championship standard) and UCD (mid table League 1 to League 2 standard) are competing in, UCD and all Eircom League clubs are seriously punching above their weight under difficult circumstances.

And yet US college football teams, hell US college highschool teams can afford professional coaching staff.... of course thats because of the magic money trees that grow in the US, because you know, the US became a huge corporate capitalist state by just dumping money into things that make no profit and don't run businesses well... Oh no, wait.....

Is that not enough to gain ''respect'' or do you have to have all expensive fancy materialistic facilities from money that grows on trees to gain ''respect''?

Its not about fancy materialistic things, its about offering the punter value for money. LoI don't. Certainly I'd have huge reservations about taking kids to many LoI grounds, I can only imagine how the training facilities are.

You seem to think that Irish people are obliged to to follow Irish LoI teams no matter how much they dislike how the league is run. Yet many LoI teams shun the national team because they don't like how the team is run.... some irony there.

If someone wants to choose to spend their money on sky sports or a trip to the UK over going to an LoI team, all that says is the LoI are doing something wrong.

If LoI fans are happy to overlook the absolute money draining black hole that the LoI is and put up with poor running of clubs and poor standards and facilities, that is their look out. Its like battered wife syndrome, in for the penny, in for the pound.

They shouldn't expect everyone else to blindly support a league that is managed in a manner inferior to many school teams in other countries.

As such, the Irish manager may see no reason to pick EL players based on the lack of quality opposition they face and, lets be honest, when they come across poor-mediocre european opposition, they crumbled this season.... maybe Stan just had foresight, not ignorance of the LoI.

_blank_

psi wrote:

maybe Stan just had foresight,

rofl.

John_C

I don't think Keely had a point complaining that Stan wasn't scouting players in the league. He set up a B international team and appointed Devo manager largely for that reason. From that he's taken the top few league players into the senior squad to give them a chance in friendly games. That's all exactly as it should be.

I agree with Keely though that it is disrespectful of Stan to only attend an Irish ground when an English club is visiting. No one expects him to pick a Bohs player for the international squad but showing up for the friendlies against english clubs and no other games is poor form.

Aside, I don't know why anyone's having a go at the UCD training facilities, they're probably the best in the league. You'll often see a player do well at UCDD only to turn crap when he leaves to a professional club.

GuanYin

seansouth wrote:

rofl.

Yeah, thats was a stretch, but you get my point

John C wrote:

Aside, I don't know why anyone's having a go at the UCD training facilities, they're probably the best in the league. You'll often see a player do well at UCDD only to turn crap when he leaves to a professional club.

Sorry, I didn't mean to have a go, what I'm saying is, the training is nowhere near the level it should be.


Don't get me wrong guys, MLS is a crap league... the football is slow, defensive and technical... it's boring. It's like watching a Warnock managed team play a Charlton managed team. I find the eL game sto be faster and more enjoyable. They management of the league is a sham and likewise the clubs though.

KdjaCL

There were 3 Prem scouts at the match last night all looking at Borring


kdjac

Galvasean

If I were the Ireland manager I wouldn't bother personally scouting Eircom league matches either. You'd be better off scouting friendly matches between Championship (and probably League 1) teams. When the very rare decent eircom league players show up they get snapped up by an English club's scouts, so they in essence are doing the scouting work for the Irish national team.

KdjaCL

Galvasean wrote:

If I were the Ireland manager I wouldn't bother personally scouting Eircom league matches either. You'd be better off scouting friendly matches between Championship (and probably League 1) teams. When the very rare decent eircom league players show up they get snapped up by an English club's scouts, so they in essence are doing the scouting work for the Irish national team.

Yes as freindly matches really do show how good a player is, that new striker off Spurs is muck seen him a freindly recently and running seemed to be above his level. Cost 20 odd million tho.

I have seen some stupid posts and thats up there.



kdjac

gustavo

Galvasean wrote:

If I were the Ireland manager I wouldn't bother personally scouting Eircom league matches either. You'd be better off scouting friendly matches between Championship (and probably League 1) teams. When the very rare decent eircom league players show up they get snapped up by an English club's scouts, so they in essence are doing the scouting work for the Irish national team.

By that logic then surely its pointless scouting the Championship as their good players would get snapped up by the Premiership

shane86

Jonny Arson wrote:

is the whole Kevin Doyle saga not enough of a lesson for Irish management? Kevin Doyle should have been long overdue wakeup call for the FAI that are talented, International standard players in this league.

Id love to see a huge Irish domestic team develop for Europe but lets face it, at the moment Irish clubs dont have the cash to keep the real talent here. The best of the LOI, English clubs bid for them by their 18th, even if they only intend to have them on the reserves while they try em out, they throw 50K at a LOI club and theyre off. And in an Ireland of house prices where the average working man would have to enter into a morgage still lingering on when your grandkids are buying their first home, who can blame them. LOI club loyalty is all well and good, but braking several future genrations of your family out of the 9 to 5 grind that only makes the boss richer is quite another.

Stan should certainly have his staf at LOI games with camcorder in hand, but he cant be asked to go to each one personally to verify 22 players, the vast majority of whom at international standard would turn out average to poor against the likes of the Czechs and Germans. Im certainly not above the idea in an injury crisis of a reserve back up side of untested prem players, give them a chance over the motley crue of 1 or 2 prems, a few champship of no calibre an maybe 1 or 2 from league 1 that we saw in Cyprus :eek:

Galvasean

KdjaCL wrote:

Yes as freindly matches really do show how good a player is, that new striker off Spurs is muck seen him a freindly recently and running seemed to be above his level. Cost 20 odd million tho.

I have seen some stupid posts and thats up there.



kdjac

Sure they hold back a lot if friendly matches but the overall quality is still miles ahead of Ireland's competitive matches. Oh and learn to spell 'friendly' before calling my posts stupid. :P

KdjaCL

Galvasean wrote:

Sure they hold back a lot if friendly matches but the overall quality is still miles ahead of Ireland's competitive matches. Oh and learn to spell 'friendly' before calling my posts stupid. :P

Sligo are now better than juventus as they beat Cork last night, who drew with sunderland and who are now beating juventus.


Mkaes yor poste all de mor gooder.


kdjac

Zebra3

gustavo wrote:

Are you allowed to play in any other country or is England the only country on which you can be judged to play for our country?

No. Playing for that well known Irish club, Celtic FC*, guarantees you a cap and the automatic adulation of the Irish fans.

*Not actually an Irish club!

KdjaCL

Zebra3 wrote:

No. Playing for that well known Irish club, Celtic FC*, guarantees you a cap and the automatic adulation of the Irish fans.

*Not actually an Irish club!

Heh thankfully they have picked up on Billy Gibson yet


kdjac

s8n

seansouth wrote:

No, no, no. You see, Irish players playing in the LoI only become good enough for the Irish team when they fly through the Magic Make Me A Better Player Portal located half way accross the Irish Sea that they pass through on their way to play in Britain.

Correct.

DSB

Galvasean wrote:

the overall quality is still miles ahead of Ireland's competitive matches.

no.

Galvasean

KdjaCL wrote:

Sligo are now better than juventus as they beat Cork last night, who drew with sunderland and who are now beating juventus.


Mkaes yor poste all de mor gooder.


kdjac

By that logic West Ham are better than Arsenal because they beat them last season. the table disagrees though.

gustavo

KdjaCL wrote:

Sligo are now better than juventus as they beat Cork last night, who drew with sunderland and who are now beating juventus.


Mkaes yor poste all de mor gooder.


kdjac

Wooohoo in your face Alex Del Piero

Jonny Arson

psi wrote:

football is a business

football is a sport

psi wrote:

Well thats the odd thing, soccer is a minority sport in the US, americans, quite frankly, aren't interested, yet somehow they manage to get more bums on seats than a football mad nation.

population of 250+million uninterested in their domestic game versus population of 4+ million uninterested in their domestic game.... hmmmmmmmm who's more likely to get more bums on seats?
Also Ireland a football mad nation? LOL. I thought people who would be mad about something would feel the necessity to watch and support the sport at whatever level no matter what type of facilities, business practices, marketing?

psi wrote:

Of course, your assertion is that its the supporters fault for being disloyal, but as has been said before, football is a business, at least it seems to be viewed as a business everywhere else but LoI...

where the hell are you getting your assertion that LOI clubs don't recognize the important business element of the game? that is complete baloney
of course football is a business to an extent but if you solely view football as a business and all about facilities, marketing etc. and not about competition and passion then you have a distorted view about what the sport is actually about. But sure if you never actually go to football matches at eL level, underage or in your local park then football is just a big business without any substance.

psi wrote:

where the fans see it as some sort of national duty to support the league (but, ironically, not the national team).

ironically? Supporting a football club who you choose and should have an attachment to and comparing that to supporting a national team, where nationalism dictates who you should support are two completely different concepts.
Tell me, what would the grassroots landscape in this country look like if there were domestic football clubs who could invest more money in their own youth systems thus developing more players due to people attending matches and supporting their own league? If people care about the game where it matters (the domestic game) the national team would be in a far stronger position. Football in this country can't survive without strong domestic clubs at all levels and it is struggling.

psi wrote:

The FAI for one, better TV rights deals and investors. But for any of that to happen, the LoI needs to look at things such as "promotion", "marketing" and "business plans". Maybe if they started doing the simple basics of business right and sold their product well, they may get more of these "supporters" you feel they deserve.

Ignorance. Obviously you taken such an interest and know all about the LOI that you have not noticed the vast increase and improvement in LOI TV coverage over the past number of years, not noticed clubs breaking their balls trying to attract sponsors at a serious risk of losing money. Also, lets not forget when you don't have vast amounts of money coming through the turnstiles it's difficult to employ professional marketing teams

psi wrote:

Yes, but it is still a profit making business enterprise and they're getting the investment because they are smart people with business.

smart people with business who you conveniently forgot to mention who happen to have a ****load of cash in their backpockets.

psi wrote:

The MLS know that the league has alot of work to do to catch up with other fan sports here and make money back for their investors. They do this by promoting the sport and doing it well, going to schools, appearing in adverts, TV shows, whatever they can get. Do you see LoI sending players out or marketing players? No.

Your ''NO'' statement is either pure ignorance or a deliberate lie. I can recall this season more than ever players being sent out for promotional work, for one example I saw an article and pictures about Kevin Hunt in a paper the other day doing promotional work with Ford. Clubs were neglecting sending out players into communities, this is improving.

Unfortunately there is something called working within your resources. Most clubs are promoting within their resources. I've been a critic over the level of promotion clubs have been doing regarding this, of course they have do more within their resources and come up with more innovative ways to market without financially crippling themselves but to say to they sit on their arses doing nothing is pure ignorance.
When you have money you can get players on TV, magazines no problem, especially in corporate america. In Ireland, unless you're Roy Keane or Cristiano Ronaldo very few people will touch you with a barge pole. Don't forget, the vast majority of players, clubs, staff in LOI are part-time or voluntary and can't do this expensive and time consuming promotional work.

But this is the really funny thing, you preach here about LOI clubs and their poor marketing efforts and say they should put a ****load of cash into expensive marketing promotions and facilities like in the MLS that they can't afford but yet you preach about the poor organisation of LOI clubs and the poor way they are run and yet you expect them to spend money they don't have. What way do you want it? You don't have the slightest grasp about the reality of football economics for clubs in this country.

psi wrote:

No, football depends on marketing a business product, the big clubs realised this and hence we got the premiership. The EL didn't accept this and hence you have the LoI.

More ignorant BS. Get it our of your head that our population and geographical deomographs will never ever compete with the English Premiership or MLS or ever be anything like them.
You really think no clubs in this country EVER bother to promote anything, EVER bother to market themselves on a local level.... anyone even with a casual interest in domestic football knows that's untrue.
Again, like a broken record, football is a business to an extent but it marketing and facilities should never be the be all and end all for genuine football supporters, football fans who stay away because there are not shiny glosssy stands or overpaid premaddonas are not football supporters. Most clubs in this country acknowledge that clubs have to be run as business and run efficiently to survive, they are improving things off the field but yet you completely avoid the question again of where the money is going to come from to take things to another level.

psi wrote:

Rubbish, the reason the premiership was formed was for precisely the opposite reasons, the attendances were at an all time low and they clubs we're making money.

you completely missed my point. if football English supporters never bothered attending matches and building up a core support base pre-premiership era are you trying to say that there would have been the Premiership we see today? Of course there wouldn't. All nations leagues need a strong base of genuine supporters who will go and watch football under no matter what circumstances in order for the domestic game to prosper before the words ''business'' and ''marketing'' come into the equation.

psi wrote:

If the LoI ran the league like a business and the clubs followed suit, then maybe more people would have stayed with LoI clubs.

so finally, you have acknowledged the tragedy of the domestic game in this country that Irish football ''supporters'' put materialistic factors first before supporting a football club. There's the problem, Irish football ''supporters'' aren't supporting the game out of a genuine passion for the sport, a desire to watch football and what goes on the pitch.

psi wrote:

And yet US college football teams, hell US college highschool teams can afford professional coaching staff.... of course thats because of the magic money trees that grow in the US, because you know, the US became a huge corporate capitalist state by just dumping money into things that make no profit and don't run businesses well... Oh no, wait.....

good one, you quoted my comment which showed up your ignorant first post for what it was and then go an completely spin it by talking about something completely rambling about US universities who have a goldmine of cash and investment compared to Irish universities. I'm talking about UCD AFC so please go back and respond to my criticism of your post about their training methods and my explanation of why they can't afford professional coaches.

psi wrote:

Its not about fancy materialistic things, its about offering the punter value for money. LoI don't.

Since you're so supremely confident that LOI isn't value for money tell me how many LOI matches you have regularly attended over the past 2 years? I hate to think people are making ignorant posts based on no experience...........

LOI is value for money if you don't start going to matches with ignorant and unfounded pre-conceived ideas that everything should be just like the Sky Sports premiership you see through a tv screen. Genuine fans don't go to matches solely based on ''value for money'', unless they are being blatantly ripped off. I consider any match attend of my club to be more of a donation for the running of the club as i know that any club can't survive without fans coming through the turnstiles and i'm sure most other fans would say the same.
I like going to football matches no matter if it's Premiership, LOI or pub league standard, I like going to football matches no matter if it's at Wembley, Tolka Park or on pissing down day in my local park. If people genuinely loved the game they would have a similar attitude, but the majority of Irish football ''supporters'' don't. The sport surrounds people in this country be it at LOI level or local level but yet people ignore it and they call themselves Irish football ''supporters''? It's astonishing.

psi wrote:

Certainly I'd have huge reservations about taking kids to many LoI grounds, I can only imagine how the training facilities are.

Well in your first post on this thread you said about US stadiums....

Stadium holds around 20K so its comparable to LoI stadia I imagine.

so you determine (from experience?) that you would have grave reservations about taking kids to many LOI grounds when you imagine that LOI stadia hold 20,000? Hehe

Also, lets not forget Lansdowne road was a kip for such a large stadium and people went to matches
Leeds fans happily turned up to Tolka Park last month to see them play Shels
Spurs fans happily turned up to Richmond Park to see them play Pats
Sunder(Ire?)land ''fans'' happily turned up to Dalymount Park to see them play Bohs

but surely by your logic that LOI grounds are so unsafe and the Irish/English football ''supporters'' don't go near LOI clubs and grounds because they are so unsafe, rubbish, crap then why did they go to these matches????/ Hmmmm maybe there is the outrageous is a possibility that LOI isn't at all a factor in why Irish people ''support'' English clubs....

psi wrote:

You seem to think that Irish people are obliged to to follow Irish LoI teams no matter how much they dislike how the league is run.

if you support a club you support it through thick and thin unless they do something beyond acceptance
by your logic irish fans of Premiership clubs would stop following English teams for example as seen over the Premier League's handling of Carlos Tevez/West Ham affair

and lets be honest psi by stop making excuses, the vast majority of Irish/English football supporters have never bothered their arses to check out the domestic game, they dont have a clue what goes on in the domestic game (20,000 stadia!), they support English clubs because of the trend, the glamour, the money, the superstars, the backing a winner syndrome, the feeling of being part of something big – all nothing to do with actually supporting a football club
There are many big and well run clubs in Britain and yet the majority of Irish football ''supporters'' support Celtic, Man U, Liverpool, Chelsea, Arsenal, Spurs..... why aren't they supporting the Sheffield United's, Norwich City, Wolves etc. who are all well run, marketed well, great facilities? Is it because they are not one of the BIG clubs who are guaranteed to be successful? The Oirish, back a winner, feel you're part of something big syndrome strikes again!

psi wrote:

Yet many LoI teams shun the national team because they don't like how the team is run.... some irony there.

incompetence by a national association effects every single aspect of the domestic game, incompetence by a single football club is reflective of that club only

but you say English football team supporters dont support Irish teams because teams are being run like crap............. but yet they support the Irish national team who we all know for a massive professional organisation have been run like a disaster over the years. You have contradicted your point.

psi wrote:

If LoI fans are happy to overlook the absolute money draining black hole that the LoI is and put up with poor running of clubs and poor standards and facilities, that is their look out. Its like battered wife syndrome, in for the penny, in for the pound.

Your ignorant knowledge of LOI and condescending attitude right here is frankly embarrassing.
maybe just for one second get it out of your head that football is only a business all about money money money, facilities, marketing etc. and is actually about what happens on football pitch, can you do that?
you have no concept that football is more than marketing, business, facilities...... football is about a lot more than that but in the Sky Sports world nobody feels that, you're just a plain old consumer.

psi wrote:

They shouldn't expect everyone else to blindly support a league that is managed in a manner inferior to many school teams in other countries.

LOL, you really are making a complete fool of yourself now

psi wrote:

when they come across poor-mediocre european opposition, they crumbled this season.... maybe Stan just had foresight, not ignorance of the LoI.

of course, riiight, Joe Gamble and Roy O'Donovan suddenly within 90 minutes of a completely different clubs losing a match are not international standard players anymore? and of course Irish teams successful European campaigns over the past few years never happened right psi?
What about Roma getting thumped 7-1 by Man United, should the Italian coach stop looking at players of Roma because of that match? Of course not.

Anyway, this is wildly off-topic but I'm still waiting in anticipation to hear a rational answer to where will all the money come from for LOI teams to step up to the dizzy heights of Premiership and MLS level that people like psi demand if they are ever going to come through the turnstiles in their own country.

Bubs101

Jonny Arson wrote:

Anyway, this is wildly off-topic but I'm still waiting in anticipation to hear a rational answer to where will all the money come from for LOI teams to step up to the dizzy heights of Premiership and MLS level that people like psi demand if they are ever going to come through the turnstiles in their own country.

Trees:D

GuanYin

Jonny Arson wrote:

football is a sport

Semantics aside (which you shoot yourself in the foot with later in your post by acknowledging football (as in the professionally run sport of football) is a business, I think you knew what I meant, but good start.

population of 250+million uninterested in their domestic game versus population of 4+ million uninterested in their domestic game.... hmmmmmmmm who's more likely to get more bums on seats?

Depends on the quality of the game and facilities.

Put it another way, population of 250+million with well run stadia watching a well run team play in a well run league in a good atmosphere or population of 4+ (closer to 6 now isn't it?) in awful stadia, watching a poorly run team in a poorly run league in a disgraceful atmosphere. hmmmmmmmmmmm who is more likely to get bums on seats?

Also Ireland a football mad nation? LOL. I thought people who would be mad about something would feel the necessity to watch and support the sport at whatever level no matter what type of facilities, business practices, marketing?

The majority of Ireland's sport liking population will have a basic knowledge of soccer and will have at some stage watched a game. Even among the people in the US who play soccer, the number that actually watch or attend MLS games is low, very low.

Your assumption here is your problem. Noone will pay for crap. At least noone should be expected to pay for crap. The state of the eL is a the end product of mismanagment and idiocy over many years by the FAI and the LoI. The best way any fan anywhere can make a protest against their club or leagues inept dealings, is by staying away, which is exactly what is happening. And those who stay behind, blame the population for not supporting and putting their hard earned money into a crap product that is run badly.

where the hell are you getting your assertion that LOI clubs don't recognize the important business element of the game? that is complete baloney
of course football is a business to an extent but if you solely view football as a business and all about facilities, marketing etc. and not about competition and passion then you have a distorted view about what the sport is actually about. But sure if you never actually go to football matches at eL level, underage or in your local park then football is just a big business without any substance.

I don't view football soley as a business, but a club has to be run as a business. A business sets out to make money by selling a product. If the product is bad, people won't buy it. eL is a bad product, the clubs games are a bad product.

ironically? Supporting a football club who you choose and should have an attachment to and comparing that to supporting a national team, where nationalism dictates who you should support are two completely different concepts.

Isn't nationalism an attachment? In any case, football is community based. It's family based. I don't view the eL teams as appreciating this or fostering it, at least not fostering it to any level of note.

Tell me, what would the grassroots landscape in this country look like if there were domestic football clubs who could invest more money in their own youth systems thus developing more players due to people attending matches and supporting their own league? If people care about the game where it matters (the domestic game) the national team would be in a far stronger position. Football in this country can't survive without strong domestic clubs at all levels and it is struggling.

Actually the grassroots is still underapreciated by the eL. People go out and support teams their kids play in, the old brenfer league NDSL and the SDFL. It all ends when it gets to adults.

Again you keep saying that people should support the domestic game, but you don't say why. Why should they support an organisation that does not run itself well?

Ignorance. Obviously you taken such an interest and know all about the LOI that you have not noticed the vast increase and improvement in LOI TV coverage over the past number of years, not noticed clubs breaking their balls trying to attract sponsors at a serious risk of losing money. Also, lets not forget when you don't have vast amounts of money coming through the turnstiles it's difficult to employ professional marketing teams

Oh give me a break, I don't live in Ireland and I still watch eL games and highlights. Setanta and TV3 do not offer quality coverage, its cheap, unprofessional and uninspiring.

Of course, I'm sure you're wondering why it should be materialistic, people should watch it because it's Irish.

The eL, to my mind, made a hash of selling the rights of the game and it's refelected in the quality of the programming covering the eL.

smart people with business who you conveniently forgot to mention who happen to have a ****load of cash in their backpockets.

So? It's not much good trying to attract investors with no cash. There are people out there with money to invest. Look at Drumbville. Was any approach made to them to pump money into the domestic league instead? Why not? what about others like them.

Your ''NO'' statement is either pure ignorance or a deliberate lie. I can recall this season more than ever players being sent out for promotional work, for one example I saw an article and pictures about Kevin Hunt in a paper the other day doing promotional work with Ford. Clubs were neglecting sending out players into communities, this is improving.

How high profile is this? How much of a household name is Kevin Hunt? Do people in Donegal know who he is? I can tell you for certain that Sherlock was known country wide, because I heard his name everywhere at the time.

How many school kids playing soccer know who Kevin Hunt is? You see, this is the point, you say "oh its being done" and whats really being done is a half hearted effort that is nothing more than going through the motions. If the eL wants to make it as a big league, it needs to attract people, the easiest and best people to attract are kids. the eL is in a good position for this, because
amazingly (and I'm amazed they haven't spotted this before) kids like and play football, far more than adults.

Improving isn't good enough, they need to set up an initiative and make it happen.

I managed an under 11s team and an under 10s team for a bigger north dublin schoolboy club and never once saw sight nor light of an eL player. We had one FAI certified couch there only because his son played on the team.

Unfortunately there is something called working within your resources. Most clubs are promoting within their resources. I've been a critic over the level of promotion clubs have been doing regarding this, of course they have do more within their resources and come up with more innovative ways to market without financially crippling themselves but to say to they sit on their arses doing nothing is pure ignorance.

I never said that they were sitting on there arses, what I'm saying is, the level they're doing it at, they may as well be sitting on their arses.

When you have money you can get players on TV, magazines no problem, especially in corporate america. In Ireland, unless you're Roy Keane or Cristiano Ronaldo very few people will touch you with a barge pole. Don't forget, the vast majority of players, clubs, staff in LOI are part-time or voluntary and can't do this expensive and time consuming promotional work.

Oh come on, corporate america gives a rats ass about soccer? there has been more coverage of soccer in the US since Beckham arrived than the entire previous history of the MLS. But they promote in the right places, using the right methods and they get bums on seats.

People want to go to games, sometimes because the satdium atmosphere is cool. Can't ever say that about an eL stadium.

Other amateur leagues get money and manage well. Other professional sports do so. Why is eL doing so much worse than them? Part of it has to do with the EPL, but part of it has to do with the lack of community focus by just about every eL team.

But this is the really funny thing, you preach here about LOI clubs and their poor marketing efforts and say they should put a ****load of cash into expensive marketing promotions and facilities like in the MLS that they can't afford but yet you preach about the poor organisation of LOI clubs and the poor way they are run and yet you expect them to spend money they don't have. What way do you want it? You don't have the slightest grasp about the reality of football economics for clubs in this country.

I expect them to manage their TV rights better, I expect them to promote better at schoolboy level, I expect them to actively look for investers, I expect them to deal with the FAI with more balls. I know the clubs are screwed for cash, but thats largely their own doing. A business is a business and eL clubs are a business. Its up to THEM to sort out their clubs and get bums back on seats. If that means downsizing the clubs or even the leagues for a few years and cutting costs in favour of focusing on community soccer, then so be it, it might just pay dividends.

More ignorant BS. Get it our of your head that our population and geographical deomographs will never ever compete with the English Premiership or MLS or ever be anything like them.

No, get it into your head that the EPL and MLS are both run as businesses. Teams in the EPL have suffered huge losses in fan turnout when they ran the businesses badly, what happens, they do everything in their power to change
things. They don't blame the fans.

You really think no clubs in this country EVER bother to promote anything, EVER bother to market themselves on a local level.... anyone even with a casual interest in domestic football knows that's untrue.

They don't do it well enough. Simple as.

Again, like a broken record, football is a business to an extent but it marketing and facilities should never be the be all and end all for genuine football supporters

Well thats great, because the attendances now consist of all the genuine football supporters each club has, so with attitudes like yours, no wonder the eL is doing so poorly and your pissed. It's your fault.

What you could do, is figure out how to get more genuine fans interested and attending games. These ones will be new, so you're gonna need some incentive to get them to come along. Like maybe, good promotion, marketing and facilities?

football fans who stay away because there are not shiny glosssy stands or overpaid premaddonas are not football supporters. Most clubs in this country acknowledge that clubs have to be run as business and run efficiently to survive, they are improving things off the field but yet you completely avoid the question again of where the money is going to come from to take things to another level.

Or because they don't want to give money to a craply run club that will just piss it away down the toilet.

Or because they don't know the games are on, or because they have no affinity or community connnection to the clubs.

The clubs need investment to start and that is the hard part, but noone will invest in the eL as it is run today. Noone with sense anyway.

you completely missed my point. if football English supporters never bothered attending matches and building up a core support base pre-premiership era are you trying to say that there would have been the Premiership we see today? Of course there wouldn't. All nations leagues need a strong base of genuine supporters who will go and watch football under no matter what circumstances in order for the domestic game to prosper before the words ''business'' and ''marketing'' come into the equation.

Because in those days, it was about the other things that theeL lacks. Community focus.

so finally, you have acknowledged the tragedy of the domestic game in this country that Irish football ''supporters'' put materialistic factors first before supporting a football club. There's the problem, Irish football ''supporters'' aren't supporting the game out of a genuine passion for the sport, a desire to watch football and what goes on the pitch.

They will when the next generation of kids have been supporting the club for their lives, watching players they know by name and seen play and pretending to be on the school pitch. Of course, noone will want to take their kids to the atmosphere at an eL ground, because a) its crap and b) the kids don't want to watch a load of strangers kick a aball about in a dull stadium.

But hey, lets not think ahead. That might get us somewhere.

good one, you quoted my comment which showed up your ignorant first post for what it was and then go an completely spin it by talking about something completely rambling about US universities who have a goldmine of cash and investment compared to Irish universities. I'm talking about UCD AFC so please go back and respond to my criticism of your post about their training methods and my explanation of why they can't afford professional coaches.

I'm saying other universities can. Other soccer clubs can. If UCD can't, they need to look at ways to change things. If that means stepping back before going forward, fair enough.

Since you're so supremely confident that LOI isn't value for money tell me how many LOI matches you have regularly attended over the past 2 years? I hate to think people are making ignorant posts based on no experience...........

3 and I've been out of the country for 18 months.
I've also been to MLS games.

I'll respond to the rest later.