"Citizen's arrest" of US soldiers in Shannon

oscarBravo

Ennis? Shannon Airport? Iran? British sailors?

Unless I'm missing something significant, this has gone waay off-topic. I'm splitting the irrelevant posts off to a new thread though, as they're interesting in their own right.

oscarBravo

On the topic: it seems to me that the activist in question exceeded his authority in performing the citizen's arrest. Under section 4.4 of the 1997 Criminal Law Act, it is only permissible to arrest someone if you believe, with reasonable cause, that the person to be arrested would otherwise attempt to avoid, or is avoiding, arrest by a Garda.

The correct procedure in this case would have been to phone the Gardaí, inform them of the perceived breach of the law, and let them handle it.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

was this reported in any us media? would love to see their reaction

brianthebard

Manic Moran wrote:

Long enough.



Ennis is the nearest notable town to Shannon Airport, 13 miles according to the marker. We're not exactly talking all the way to Limerick here, and as such does qualify under 'immediate vicinity'

If the troops weren't permitted to leave the airfield under any circumstances, they wouldn't say 'immediate vicinity'. If they are permitted to leave the airfield, it must be for a reason, the most likely one being acommodation for a delayed flight. Ennis, being the nearest town, would be that location. Unless you suggest they want permission to go down the road half a mile to get some mingies at the local Shell station.

NTM

You really are pulling the p!ss if you think 13 miles is the immediate vicinity.

newby.204

RedPlanet wrote:

Not "guys", idiots : Frontline Soldiers for Freedom

i think you should get yourself a life my friend and stop hassling the frontline soldier on a forum where you have anonnimity!!, they are merely doing their JOB, yes that happens to be partaking in war, however it is their job and as such you should direct your verbal assaults at US administration. And not at Joe Bloggs doing his JOB!!, Also the git who put them under "citizens arrest" should get himself a life also!!!

Dr_Teeth

Wow, what a dickhead this Conor Cregan guy is.. he even wrote the article in the 3rd person haha.. christ!

Now I'll agree that invading Iraq was the worst thing the U.S. could possibly do, and that their foreign policy is ****ing up the world big time, but acting that way toward a few lads out the stretch their legs and have a smoke after being in a warzone is just ignorant.

He could have said "Hi lads, you know, I believe you're not supposed to be walking around in uniform, you should head back to where you're staying and make sure it's ok with the police or one of your officers". But no, he puts them under (citizens) arrest and dials 999.

Dickhead!

Ru

Manic Moran wrote:

And as mentioned, is the closest town of any note. On a national, or even international level, Limerick is 'in the vicinity of Shannon'. Ennis, being the nearest town, would be the immediate vicinity, by virtue of necessity as there's nowhere else which could count

I can see where this is going......
Korea was in the vicinity of Vietnam
Iraq is in the vicinity of Afghanistan
Iran is in the vicinity Iraq.....

of course, this would be on an international level !!!



All nations are born of horror and violence; most of them have grown up by now!!!

Liam Byrne

Manic Moran wrote:

Ennis is the nearest notable town to Shannon Airport, 13 miles according to the marker. We're not exactly talking all the way to Limerick here, and as such does qualify under 'immediate vicinity'

And you said that "I" don't research things......Limerick is 8 miles from Shannon, Ennis is 13.......so we ARE talking "all the way to Limerick", and then some! Also Shannon Town is in the "immediate vicinity" of the airport, and includes shops, facilities, hotels and accommodation, not to mention Newmarket-on-Fergus (IMHO, outside the "immediate vicinity", but nearer than Ennis).

Manic Moran wrote:

If the troops weren't permitted to leave the airfield under any circumstances, they wouldn't say 'immediate vicinity'. If they are permitted to leave the airfield, it must be for a reason, the most likely one being acommodation for a delayed flight. Ennis, being the nearest town, would be that location. Unless you suggest they want permission to go down the road half a mile to get some mingies at the local Shell station.

If that's what the LAW OF THIS COUNTRY says, then that's what they should do......but the law - as adjusted for the American troops - incidentally, DOESN'T say that, because the "immediate vicinity" reference that you like quoting so much presumably DOES cover them for that half a mile.....it DOESN'T cover them for going 13 miles away!

Mind you, considering that the U.S. Administration ignored even INTERNATIONAL law, should we be surprised ?

Imagine this scenario : two Mexicans stray over the border into the U.S; one is found 500 yards inside the line, saying he was there by accident....the other was found 13 miles inside the border....would Fox News report that both were found in the "immediate vicinity" of the border ?

Likewise, if someone under house arrest was found half-a-mile away at the local shop, they MIGHT get away with it, but if they were 13 miles away, forget it....they'd be done for it.

The key word is "immediate", and even that - undemocratic - concession was abused by these guys.....but as usual, Bertie & Co decide to lick the U.S. Army's arse just in case they'd stop spending €20-odd at the Midleton Duty Free.... :mad:

Our laws say "no foreign army uniforms whatsoever" (so I was right in my statement); the U.S. curiously request a derogation from that (wonder why that's required ?); that derogation is granted, but only in the "immediate vicinity" (so even though I hadn't included this in my post, I was still right); and these U.S. troops then go one step further and then wonder why the public is annoyed ??

So if you want to discuss an actual point, feel free - it is a democracy here, after all - we haven't offically been invaded by a foreign force, even though it might look like it if you're in Shannon or its "immediate vicinity" - or even as far away as Ennis.

But don't question my knowledge of our laws and don't make excuses for people who broke the law (even despite the leeway of the derogation).

Dr Teeth wrote:

a few lads out the stretch their legs and have a smoke

Jeez, I know soldiers are trained and fit, but a 26-mile round trip to "stretch their legs" ???? That's stretching credibility to the point where the next thing they'll be claiming is that there are WMDs in.......oh - I get your point!

And keeping your example in mind, leaving aside the clothes for a sec - if you or I had a smoke somewhere that was against the law, we'd be fined or arrested......and if, for example, we were doing that while wearing something we shouldn't (since I can't think of a relevant example, let's say we were naked while in a public place) we'd be arrested.

The law is the law. If you requested (and were somehow granted) a derogation for the 120kmph speed limit on a motorway to 140kmph, and were then clocked at 150kmph, not only would you (rightly) be done for it, but I can guarantee you that the law would come down even harder on you because you were blatantly abusing the level of goodwill shown to you in giving you that derogation.

Liam Byrne

Lemming wrote:

Ummmm ... didn't Manic just point out the whole "nothing else in between Ennis & Shannon airport" thing? Thus falling under your very own words of "Having no intervening medium" :rolleyes:

Well, Manic did - but he/she was wrong, ignoring both Shannon Town and Newmarket-on-Fergus - either because it suited his/her argument to do so, or because the American army's intelligence and research isn't accurate....so no surprise with either of those, really - we've seen it all before.

Lemming wrote:

or are you so quick try and "win an argument on t3h 1nt0rw3b" that you can't see the wood for the trees?

No, as far as I see it, FYI was sticking to the facts and was 100% correct in their post; Manic adjusted the facts to suit his/her argument. Hardly a reason to attack FYI's motives, or question their reason for posting ?

P.S. I just read that government page again, and it says....

But the possession of these dreadful weapons is the immediate threat which must be dealt with.

So, since it's in the same speech, I assume that this fictional WMD threat was part of the reason for facilitiating the U.S. Government and allowing the derogation to make life easier ? And since there were/are no WMDs, should the derogation now expire so that we can go on holidays without being reminded that we are being implicated in an illegal war ?

SeanW

RedPlanet wrote:

I think the FACT, that the Gard ushered the dopey troops inside as soon as the infraction was brought to attention; and there was no protest on the part of the soldiers, or their commander's, or the US Embassy...is conclusive proof that Ennis town is not considered within the "immediate vicinity" as refered in the 29 January 2003 Government Press Release - Statement by the Minister for Foreign Affairs.

Has anybody been seeing dopey American Soldiers in Ennis, dumbing around in their ugly uniforms?

Do us all a favour and take your idiotic anti-American insults elsewhere.

Sand

In response to the events in Ennis referred to by the OP, theres a lot Id like to say but I think it can be summed up simply enough by the abbreviation "LOL".

The great thing is the protestor did it all deadpan.

Victor

In fairness, the government and the Garda come out of this rather badly. Rather than making jokes to (at?) a complainant, the sergeant or the detective sergeant or any one other of the gardaí should have explained that the soldiers had permission. That they didn't is damning. That they didn't is symptomatic of a 'ah sure it'll be alright' attitude, which is unacceptable for a contentious issue.

The complainant had no way of knowing that they had permission.

Manic Moran wrote:

In any case, let us hypothetically stipulate that Ennis is not covered by the blanket permission for wear of the uniform. Has anyone, anywhere, submitted any evidence, or even hypothesis to show that in such a case the US did not make, a 'request for exception', and indeed receive such? After all, if they were nice enough to request permission for the airport area, why wouldn't they request for Ennis?

Ddin't they forget to request permission to transfer a prisoner?

Liam Byrne

Victor wrote:

...the sergeant or the detective sergeant or any one other of the gardaí should have explained that the soldiers had permission

Isn't that the whole point ? That they DIDN'T (and don't) have permission ?

Are you suggesting that the Gardai should lie ?

I'm anti-invasion, but not anti-American (there is a distinction, and as was pointed out the soldiers that do go through Shannon - those that go through without breaking our laws - are only doing their job; the fact that their leader is either an idiot or a conniving potential world dominatrix isn't really their fault). I don't agree with Bertie's unilateral decision not to ask us if he could allow our airport to be abused, but he did; I don't agree with the actual derogation which emphasises that Shannon is being abused due to the uniformed troops there; but they got the derogation, for better or worse.

Nope, unfortunately all of the above are done deals by our lame-ass Government, and are beyond the topic of this discussion, which is specifically related to the guys who chose to ignore our laws......personally, I'd prefer to put Bush in prison than these guys, but unfortunately the small guy is always the fall guy; having said that these guys did break the law, and just because the UN chickened out of jailing Bush doesn't mean that we should start ignoring our laws too....

RedPlanet

SeanW wrote:

Do us all a favour and take your idiotic anti-American insults elsewhere.

Oh my!
I think i've outed one of them!

My comments are not idiotic, they are not necessarily even insults, rather they are observations.
You should watch this probably, and reflect.
http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=fJuNgBkloFE

Manic Moran

brianthebard wrote:

You really are pulling the p!ss if you think 13 miles is the immediate vicinity.

Depends on your relative scale. I drive more than that just getting my tank from the motor pool to the range.

Limerick is 8 miles from Shannon, Ennis is 13

Granted, I eyeballed it on the map. http://www.tipp.ie/map_ireland.jpg which shows Shannon as being far closer to Ennis. So in view of the above I had a look at viamichelin.com, which makes it as near to a dead heat as makes no difference. (24.5km Limerick, 23.2km Ennis).

Also Shannon Town is in the "immediate vicinity" of the airport, and includes shops, facilities, hotels and accommodation

Do you think it is reasonable to find accommodation for a hundred fifty people (At least, that's how many my 'plane carried) on a couple of hours' notice at Shannon town? I wouldn't be surprised to find an excess which would need to be put up elsewhere. After all, Shannon Town's hotels would not be empty, waiting for a bunch of American troops to show up.

That they DIDN'T (and don't) have permission ?

An issue which still appears to be under some dispute when it comes to Ennis, but is under no dispute when it comes to Shannon Airport which appears to be your primary point of objection.

If that's what the LAW OF THIS COUNTRY says, then that's what they should do......but the law - as adjusted for the American troops

"As adjusted?" Damn. Talk about advance planning. The law (Particularly noting subsection 3: The exemption) was written in 1954.

317. —(1) No person shall, save with the consent in writing of a Minister of State, enter or land in the State while wearing any foreign uniform

(2) No person shall, save with the consent in writing of a Minister of State, go into any public place in the State while wearing any foreign uniform

(3) A Minister of State may from time to time direct that subsections (1) and (2) of this section shall not during a specified period apply in respect of any particular class (defined in such manner as he thinks fit) of persons, and in that case the said subsections shall not apply during that period in respect of that class of persons

Indeed, my understanding is that the current situation is unusual not because the Minister granted permission, but that anyone asked for it in the first place. Foreign military uniforms have been in Shannon for decades, just nobody seemed to make a big deal of it.

As an aside, an interesting note is that the excemption clause allows for exemptions based on category of person, but says nothing about geographic restrictions. It seems likely that the only way to be sure is to actually get a copy of the note the Minister sent. Perhaps some newspaper would be good enough to do a FOI request?

NTM

Moriarty

€15 will get you a FOI request all of your own.

Perhaps if anyone's actually particularly intrested in finding out exactly what the note said they could make a request and publish what they recieve here?

oscarBravo

SeanW wrote:

Do us all a favour and take your idiotic anti-American insults elsewhere.

Do me a favour and leave the moderating to me. If you've something to contribute on-topic, feel free.

RedPlanet wrote:

Oh my!
I think i've outed one of them!

My comments are not idiotic, they are not necessarily even insults, rather they are observations.

On the contrary, you've already sweepingly referred to all members of the US armed forces (at least one of whom has been posting on this thread) as "idiots". That's not an observation, it's an insult.

Moriarty wrote:

€15 will get you a FOI request all of your own.

Perhaps if anyone's actually particularly intrested in finding out exactly what the note said they could make a request and publish what they recieve here?

Now there's an idea.

Dr_Teeth

Liam Byrne wrote:

Jeez, I know soldiers are trained and fit, but a 26-mile round trip to "stretch their legs" ???? That's stretching credibility to the point where the next thing they'll be claiming is that there are WMDs in.......oh - I get your point!

What? They were on a plane, then on a bus to the hotel, then in the hotel. If I was them I'd be glad of a little walk to stretch my legs, around some GREEN countryside where no-one was trying to shoot me.

Ru

RedPlanet wrote:

POW's?
Naw, we'll just declare them "unlawful combatants" and ship them all to Craggy Island.

We would have to think up some new forms of "legal" torture,

I propose

1) We could not offer extra cheese on their prison food!
2) Remind them that they lost the Vietnam War
3) Get them to name all 50 states, alphabetically for the officers
4) Impose diets...
6) Make them watch “foreigners” speak English without subtitles
7) Make them do exams without multiple choice answers
8) Strip them, sexually degrade them, physically and mentally beat them. Defecate on their religious beliefs… oh wait… that would actually be illegal…

Hagar

If the US Army thinks 13 miles is "immediate vicinity" I think I understand how so many innocent people are killed by their "collateral bombings".

A 13 mile radius cover approx 530 sq miles by comparison all of County Louth is only about 317 sq miles. Way too much freedom if you ask me.

Akrasia

Lemming wrote:

Ummmm ... didn't Manic just point out the whole "nothing else in between Ennis & Shannon airport" thing? Thus falling under your very own words of "Having no intervening medium" :rolleyes:

or are you so quick try and "win an argument on t3h 1nt0rw3b" that you can't see the wood for the trees?

um, I don't think the people of Newmarket, Bunratty or Clarecastle would like you guys referring to their towns and villages as 'Nothing'

Victor

Akrasia wrote:

um, I don't think the people of Newmarket, Bunratty or Clarecastle would like you guys referring to their towns and villages as 'Nothing'

All are bypassed. Clarecastle is contiguous with Ennis.

Do they have hotels? Other than Dromoland Castle.

Akrasia

Victor wrote:

All are bypassed. Clarecastle is contiguous with Ennis.

Do they have hotels? Other than Dromoland Castle.

So when something is bypassed then it stops existing? There are still roads to these places, and If you tell someone from Carecastle that they're in Ennis you'd better have something to defend yourself cause you won't be given any mercy.

Yes there are hotels between Ennis and Shannon, Dromoland and the Clare Inn are two, and there are are also a number of hotels in Shannon and on the limerick side of the airport.

Look, this is a stupid debate. Ennis is not in the immediate vicinity of Shannon.

The Soldiers were breaking Irish law by wandering around my town in full military uniform.

oscarBravo

Akrasia wrote:

The Soldiers were breaking Irish law by wandering around my town in full military uniform.

That's a topic of some debate - care to volunteer to submit the FoI request mentioned above?

Anyway, it seems clear to me that, whatever about the soldiers, Cregan broke the law in performing his citizen's arrest.

Victor

oscarBravo wrote:

Anyway, it seems clear to me that, whatever about the soldiers, Cregan broke the law in performing his citizen's arrest.

Perhaps he did, perhaps he didn't.

So if they were British soldiers wandering around, say Louth, would you have the same reaction?

Hagar

oscarBravo wrote:

Anyway, it seems clear to me that, whatever about the soldiers, Cregan broke the law in performing his citizen's arrest.

If it's that cut and dried why didn't the Garda arrest Mr. Cregan?

RedPlanet

Hagar wrote:

If it's that cut and dried why didn't the Garda arrest Mr. Cregan?

Not only that, but the Gard validated Mr. Cregan by ushering the soldiers inside once the infraction was made known.
Which means the gard accepted Mr. Cregan's position.

oscarBravo

Victor wrote:

Perhaps he did, perhaps he didn't.

He certainly hasn't indicated in his report what gave him reason to believe they would attempt to avoid arrest by the Gardaí.

Victor wrote:

So if they were British soldiers wandering around, say Louth, would you have the same reaction?

Only if some self-important individual decided to take the law into his own hands instead of reporting the incident to the competent authorities.

Hagar wrote:

If it's that cut and dried why didn't the Garda arrest Mr. Cregan?

They are allowed to exercise discretion in such matters. Lack of an arrest doesn't imply lack of wrongdoing.

RedPlanet wrote:

Not only that, but the Gard validated Mr. Cregan by ushering the soldiers inside once the infraction was made known.
Which means the gard accepted Mr. Cregan's position.

That's as tenuous a leap of logic as I've ever seen on this board. If the guard accepted Cregan's position, he would have arrested the soldiers.

RedPlanet

oscarBravo wrote:

That's as tenuous a leap of logic as I've ever seen on this board. If the guard accepted Cregan's position, he would have arrested the soldiers.

Rubbish, the gards would rather avoid causing an international incident.
They won't even search american aircraft when it's been reported to have ferried prisoners.

Insofar as tenuous leaps of logic, i'm sure you'll recall previous discussions here concerning the print media making claims against a certain public figure. And when that public figure didn't pursue a libel case against that media, it was therefore held by posters here(and mods) that the allegation was therefore true. Even though there can be many reasons why a public figure decides against pursing a libel case.

That being a precedent, it is logical to conclude that the gards actions in this case, and the resultant lack of any protest on part of the US Embassy, means that the gard applied the law correctly.
BTW, just because a member of a foreign army is wearing uniforms illegally, doesn't mean the gard must arrest them.

Akrasia

it's not illegal to make a citizens arrest.