The Enemies of Reason

Dades

DaveMcG wrote:

Just found this video, an interview with RD on Richard and Judy!
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1964171996506271039&hl=en

Twas all a bit slow moving last night - I preferred the Richard & Judy version DaveMcG posted as it cut it down nicely!

Bottle_of_Smoke

Think he was a bit over the top.

People who go to tarot readings etc for the most part do it for a bit of a laugh & the experience.

As for "spiritualists" I've aalways got the impression they don't really believe, more of a fashion thing for them.

One thing he's right to be boistorous about is those cold readers. I felt really bad when I saw people crying when they thought they were in contact with loved ones. Some day they'll find out it was nonsense & could end up feeling much worse than they originally did.

Hivemind187

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote:

Think he was a bit over the top.

People who go to tarot readings etc for the most part do it for a bit of a laugh & the experience.

As for "spiritualists" I've aalways got the impression they don't really believe, more of a fashion thing for them.

One thing he's right to be boistorous about is those cold readers. I felt really bad when I saw people crying when they thought they were in contact with loved ones. Some day they'll find out it was nonsense & could end up feeling much worse than they originally did.

Believe me mate, most of the plebs who go to Tarot readers, spiritualists and crystal ball gazers do so because they genuinely think there is something to it. No one in there right mind would shell out 80-100 euro to listen to some blatherskite nonsense unless they were either a) incredibly flush with money and taking the p1ss or b) they are incredibly gullible.

But you are right about the cold reading, its a con and a particularly nasty one, preying on the sensitive emotions of vulnerable people.

Tim Robbins

Hivemind187 wrote:

Believe me mate, most of the plebs who go to Tarot readers, spiritualists and crystal ball gazers do so because they genuinely think there is something to it. No one in there right mind would shell out 80-100 euro to listen to some blatherskite nonsense unless they were either a) incredibly flush with money and taking the p1ss or b) they are incredibly gullible.

But you are right about the cold reading, its a con and a particularly nasty one, preying on the sensitive emotions of vulnerable people.

I think if you look at it logically, objectively and fairly most things we spend 100 euro on have an element of irrationality to it.

Scofflaw

Tim Robbins wrote:

I think if you look at it logically, objectively and fairly most things we spend 100 euro on have an element of irrationality to it.

Good point! For example, spending €100 on poisoning oneself with alcohol is hardly sensible.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Crucifix

The Mad Hatter wrote:

I'm standing before the firing line on an atheists forum for saying this, but I'm not really that concerned with truth. Frankly happiness is more important to me. And I think quite a few people are entertained by falsehood, only we call it fiction (and good fiction is the second-most important thing in the world to me, next to good music).

I'd rather know if my girlfriend was cheating on me than be happy and not know. I guess if I never knew it wouldn't matter, but I'd prefer to know the truth about things, regardless of how it makes me feel.

I like fiction too, but I don't think that's the same as believing a falsehood.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

Hivemind187 wrote:

Believe me mate, most of the plebs who go to Tarot readers, spiritualists and crystal ball gazers do so because they genuinely think there is something to it. No one in there right mind would shell out 80-100 euro to listen to some blatherskite nonsense unless they were either a) incredibly flush with money and taking the p1ss or b) they are incredibly gullible.

But you are right about the cold reading, its a con and a particularly nasty one, preying on the sensitive emotions of vulnerable people.

my mother and my aunt went to see a psychic last weekend, mam came back all abuzz that the psychic had mentioned she was having trouble with cars (they are building a quarry near our house and the road will be destroyed with lorries) , and a woman with first name starting with 'A' is giving her hassle.

she was honestly considering moving house because of what this idiot said.

I nearly threw up.

Tim Robbins

Crucifix wrote:

I'd rather know if my girlfriend was cheating on me than be happy and not know. I guess if I never knew it wouldn't matter, but I'd prefer to know the truth about things, regardless of how it makes me feel.

I like fiction too, but I don't think that's the same as believing a falsehood.

Fiction is and myth believing are both just the suspension of disbelief.
While different, they share a lot in common.
Humans crave the suspension of disbelied whether through fiction or myth to escape from the humdrum of reality.

Hivemind187

Tim Robbins wrote:

I think if you look at it logically, objectively and fairly most things we spend 100 euro on have an element of irrationality to it.

Yes but normally when I am done masturbating I have something to show for it.

These charlatans do nothing if not masturbate ones ego, they tell you things about yourself that are immensely vague (to make it easy to swallow) and yet positive (so that you feel good). Really, thats all there is to it.

Personally, I would rather spend the €100 on something a lot more fun like new DVD's or a meal in a decent restaraunt.

MoominPapa

My favorite was the woman at the fair
"Sometimes you can trust your feelings better than.....your..." points, roughly, in the direction of her head "...head"

But joking aside, spiritualists make steam shoot out my ears. People close to me lost a loved one and were persuaded to seek the "help" of one of these f*ckers, really made matters much worse for a time but made the people who persuaded them feel better about themselves in some twisted sort of way and the charlatan 50 quid richer

Nice dig at pm too, looking forward to next week

Beruthiel

MoominPapa wrote:

My favorite was the woman at the fair
"Sometimes you can trust your feelings better than.....your..." points, roughly, in the direction of her head "...head"

I loled at that one.
I find those guys who pander to weak people in need of comfort to be leaches on society.

Crucifix

Tim Robbins wrote:

Fiction is and myth believing are both just the suspension of disbelief.
While different, they share a lot in common.
Humans crave the suspension of disbelied whether through fiction or myth to escape from the humdrum of reality.

Agreed

Tim Robbins

Tim Robbins wrote:

I think if you look at it logically, objectively and fairly most things we spend 100 euro on have an element of irrationality to it.

Hivemind187 wrote:

Yes but normally when I am done masturbating I have something to show for it.

You shouldn't have to pay 100 euro for that.

aidan24326

Tim Robbins wrote:

You shouldn't have to pay 100 euro for that.

Was thinking that myself.

Hivemind, how exactly does it cost you 100 euro to masturbate?! I thought it was 'the most fun you can have for free'!

Missed this docu as I was out irrationally spending money on poisonous alcohol. But I gotta say these new-age spiritualist types rile me more than any religious person. They often seem to think of themselves as more high-brow than the typical churchgoing god-fearing types but the garbage they spout is every bit as bad if not worse.

In the case of 'psychic channelers' or whatever they call themselves it is more than just harmless nonsense as they are playing on the emotions of people in a vulnerable state of mind. I was delighted when the old hag that was on the late late show got exposed for the blood-sucking fraud that she is. But no doubt she's probably still in action.

Calibos

For anyone who missed it, its already up on the usual torrent sites. Just starting to watch it myself now. Like Mysyk I browsed the forum last night and as soon as I saw this thread again..........Ahhh...b0ll1x! Very embarressinging as I gave a heads up about the programme on the skeptics forum.

Hivemind187

aidan24326 wrote:

Was thinking that myself.

Hivemind, how exactly does it cost you 100 euro to masturbate?! I thought it was 'the most fun you can have for free'!

Bastards ... what will I do with the receipts??? :eek:

Zillah

Scofflaw wrote:

Good point! For example, spending €100 on poisoning oneself with alcohol is hardly sensible.

Ah here now! It is true that spending 100 euro to get pissed all alone in a dark room would be a waste. But thats not what most people do. That money is spent on a whole night's entertainment, filled with revelry, friends and new people, lasting as much as six hours or more. Thats worth a hundred quid to me. Not too often mind you, I'd usually like to keep it to around 50/60...

stevejazzx

edit: fixed link



watch it here

http://www.videosift.com/?domains=www.videosift.com&search=enemies+of+reason



I thought it was very good...

daveirl

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Zombrex

daveirl wrote:

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That is the thing I think a lot of people miss. Some of this stuff does seem to work. But that isn't the point. The point is that it doesn't work (or has never been shown to work) in the way that those who sell it claim it works.

If I have a stomach problem and I take a homeopathic medicine and it "works" (I feel better) it most likely has been a placebo effect. It would be rather premature and silly of me to proclaim that it has worked because the "water memory" or some such nonsense.

People seem to think that if it does something it must by doing what it is claimed it is doing, or otherwise it wouldn't do anything.

It is medieval reasoning going on (I burn wood there by releasing the "fire" element that exist in side it), seeing a result and just guessing at what is happening.

Tim Robbins

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

Was he in studio? I wonder what else he is up to over the weekend? We should get him out for beers?

Beruthiel

Tim Robbins wrote:

We should get him out for beers?

Now that would be an entertaining evening!

Dades

Beruthiel wrote:

Now that would be an entertaining evening!

I have my doubts about that...
Unless we invited Chrisianity and Islam along too.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

MoominPapa

Talking of Newstalk did anyone catch that piece on sextrology on the Life show on wednesday(not Orla Barry whoever is covering for her)? It was a f*cking disgrace. The shams touting this claimed to have taken a more scientific approach to astrology so relationships involving two fire signs will be too hot, a fire sign and a water sign will be a damp squib, etc that sort of scientism, all the while the presenter is laughingly going along with this and seemed quite put out reading a text afterwards slating her for allowing these charlatans to use the words scientific and astrology in the same sentence. I reckon of it was Moncrieff he would have taken a harder line with them, but newstalk certainly has its fair share of f*ckwits

Dr Pepper

On a side note.. Anybody (who doesn't have a pole stuck up their a$$) care to explain postmodernism to me in plain/simple English? Thanks

Here's the Wiki definition and other definitions I have found are similarly obscure (to me!):

The term Postmodernism (sometimes abbreviated Pomo[1]) was a reaction to modernism (not "post" in the purely temporal sense of "after"). Largely influenced by the disillusionment induced by the First World War, postmodernism tends to refer to a cultural, intellectual, or artistic state lacking a clear central hierarchy or organizing principle and embodying extreme complexity, contradiction, ambiguity, diversity, and interconnectedness or interreferentiality.[2]

5uspect

Postmodernism is a style of writing in which most of the rules or narrative, structure and theme are ignored. John Banville is a well known Irish Postmodernist.

Its bullst!t TBH. Here is a Postmodernism Essay generator:
http://www.elsewhere.org/pomo
Basically all the sentences are grammatically correct but are utterly meaningless.

There is a famous experiment by Alan Sokal debunking it.
Basically he made up a random paper of grammatically correct sentences that he said was about quantum physics. (Postmodernists love QT)
He submitted it to a postmodernist journal after which be published another paper debunking it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sokal_Affair
http://physics.nyu.edu/faculty/sokal/

Scofflaw

You may be wondering what a literary style has to do science...this page contains a neat summary of the "postmodernist critique of science".

In essence, post-modernists believe that because science is a human construct, it is full of human presuppositions, including, but not limited to:

1. an external world exists
2. nature is understandable
3. the rules of logic are valid
4. language is adequate to describe the natural realm
5. human senses are reliable.
6. mathematical rules are descriptive for the physical world
7. unexplained things can be used to explain other phenomenon (e.g. gravity is thus far unexplained but it is used to explain the movement of planets and the bending of light)
8. observable phenomenon provide knowledge about unobservable phenomenon (e.g. cosmic background radiation provides insight into the Big Bang)

If this sounds to you remarkably like the philosophical 'musings' of undergraduate literature students, you'd be not far off the mark. The 'post-modern critique' of science has yet to add a single useful thing to the world - but then, they would probably claim that's beside the point.

Creationists like to use this sort of post-modernist rubbish as a stick to beat science with, which seems fair enough, given that both positions are based on an almost complete ignorance of science.

It may be quite true that the kind of science a scientist does, and the sort of hypothesis he/she comes up with, are influenced by his/her cultural and personal history, but the whole shebang falls down when you realise that the same experiments can be repeated by scientists of any cultural background...

The whole thing is a pile of steaming horse c0cks, if you'll pardon my French.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Dr Pepper

Thanks chaps,

Still somewhat confused but I'll take a fresh look on Monday and try and pin it down to a question or two!

5uspect

Dr Pepper wrote:

Still somewhat confused

I think thats the idea with postmodernism...:D