Shannon-Heathrow discussion [merged]

Liam Byrne

Amazotheamazing wrote:

Infacta, Bertis himself could probably walk up some people, kick them in the face and they'd still think he's the best thing to ever happen this country.

Wouldn't surprise me, Amazo.....and in all fairness Bertie has hardly been seen or heard since this controversy arose, so he can't be to blame

Maybe if all those nasty tourists and business people flew into Dubbelin then they'd fund his Bertie bowl or something ?

Still, at least poor aul' Bertie has his helicopter or speeding Garda driver to ferry him from East to the Wild West......shure what would we need an airport for at all at all ?

And if we can't work here because of the lack of flights and broadband, we can all move to Dubbelin and save the Government a fortune in expensive stuff like roads and trains outside the Pale......

ninty9er

Now that I'm back from my long weekend in the sunny south-east I'm going to once again state that resignations of anything less than 7 TD won't matter, because they'd still be a part of the government, but not a party due to the issue. They would still be more likely than not to support other govt. proposals and there is a majority of 12 over the opposition, meaning all of the opposition plus 7 govt TD need to vote against the government to win anything:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Now if you can point out 7 TD that you realistically think will resign then you have a valid argument, but there's only 6 in the core of the region, and not all or any of them would be amenable to such a course of action.

Anyhow, my own personal opinion on the matter is that Bertie's head rolls if they vote with the board. The statements released before now stated that intervention wasn't an option, and therefore the only course of action as regards the shareholding is no action at all. That way the icing on the cake is that not only does Mannion have to tell Belfast they're not getting a LHR connection from AL (they can have any other European roiutes they want), but he'll also have to resign as he doesn't have the confidence of a majority of the shareholders:D

This was about getting money out of the govt. for new aircraft from the start so that SNN could keep LHR and Belfast could get some new planes. It has backfired and I hope Mannion is made to pay.

It was bad enough that he let down the West, but much worse in my opinion, as I have had it done to me; he plain straight lied to and double-crossed his staff and THAT is the act of scum!!

Pure Mule

Belfast gets the slots. Mid-West hits the doldrums. Bertie includes the North in the electoral register to ensure an overall majority ....or he stands in Belfast for election to the Commons

phog

Liam Byrne wrote:

I think it made perfect sense.....tell AL that if they treat us as disposable on the flights that suit them to do so, we'll treat them as disposable on the other flights too!

The aim was to get all the councillors to avoid booking AL flights for official business, and possibly for personal business too. The actual aim was to show AL that they can't have it all their own way, and the hope was that the boycott would never have to be followed through as the lack of business might force them to reconsider.

Seemed like a top-notch proposal to mer....if AL don't want our business on specific flights, and they've certainly proven that, then they don't get it AT ALL!

Mind you, with one of the biggest shareholders still pretending that AL are doing this in the interests of their shareholders and saying they can't interfere (despite being one of the biggest shareholder groups), I can't see this going any other way....

Stand by for the election campaign of the next decade, though - there will be ABSOLUTELY NO POINT in a FF/PD/Green representative bothering to travel west of the Shannon (assuming, that is, that there will still actually be a way for them to do so).

In percentage terms how much of ALs revenue in Shannon came from the city council in the last 10 years? Close to zero I'd guess - so the boycott would have a huge effect on AL.

The boycott proposal was withdrawn not defeated so it's hard to blame FF for it, they are certainly in the minority on the council.

phog

Amazotheamazing wrote:

You're wrong Liam, people like Phog and ninety-nine will vote FF regardless of what they do or don't do on this. Infacta, Bertis himself could probably walk up some people, kick them in the face and they'd still think he's the best thing to ever happen this country.

What makes you think you can second guess my voting intentions for the next election or how I decide who to vote for in any election?

Liam Byrne

ninty9er wrote:

The statements released before now stated that intervention wasn't an option

That's what I can't understand......as shareholders, they have a right to put forward whatever they want, but FF are saying "Aer Lingus is now private, and must act in the interests of its shareholders".....forgive me if I'm dumb, but isn't that a contradiction ?

ninty9er wrote:

and therefore the only course of action as regards the shareholding is no action at all

According to the Government, yes, but that's by no means "the only course of action" in the true sense of the phrase.

ninty9er wrote:

This was about getting money out of the govt. for new aircraft from the start so that SNN could keep LHR and Belfast could get some new planes.

Funny, that, considering AL is now privatised and the Government (in their own words) are "not allowed to interfere" :rolleyes:

Do AL want it both ways or what ? Roll on BMI !!!!!

billy the squid

http://www.examiner.ie/irishexaminer/pages/story.aspx-qqqg=ireland-qqqm=ireland-qqqa=ireland-qqqid=41202-qqqx=1.asp
My heart bleeds

Amazotheamazing

phog wrote:

What makes you think you can second guess my voting intentions for the next election or how I decide who to vote for in any election?

Because it's easier to convince a brick wall to get up and walk away than it is to make a Ff'er see the damage they've done to the midwest.

sioda

billy the squid wrote:

http://www.examiner.ie/irishexaminer/pages/story.aspx-qqqg=ireland-qqqm=ireland-qqqa=ireland-qqqid=41202-qqqx=1.asp
My heart bleeds

Classic. Billy I hope you get that bleeding under control.

Well I believe this shows that they have enough Heathrow slots already brilliant

phog

Amazotheamazing wrote:

Because it's easier to convince a brick wall to get up and walk away than it is to make a Ff'er see the damage they've done to the midwest.

I take it from your posts that you are happier to be FF bashing than to giving support to finding a resolution to the lost slots. If that makes you happy than you can sleep easy in your bed.

BTW - rather than diviating on this thread with your anti FF and anti anyone who doesn't agree with you why don't you start a thread on all the damage that FF have done to the Midwest?

Liam Byrne

phog wrote:

I take it from your posts that you are happier to be FF bashing than to giving support to finding a resolution to the lost slots. If that makes you happy than you can sleep easy in your bed.

Funny, that - "not giving support to finding a resolution" ??

There IS a fairly simple and straightforward solution available - the FF Government get off their arses and use the votes that they deliberately kept so that they WOULD have a say in how AL operates.

So, rather than attacking Amazo for not coming up with an ALTERNATIVE solution, why not query why your own organisation not only REFUSES to support a resolution that they don't have to "find", but they also trot out the line that they CAN'T INTERFERE, even though as SHAREHOLDERS they CAN ??

OPTION 1
OBVIOUS, IN FRONT OF THEIR NOSES & DO-ABLE, BUT IGNORED BY FF, PLUS THEY LIE ABOUT HOW THEY "CAN'T INTERFERE"......CHECK YOUR SHAREHOLDER DOCUMENT, BERTIE!!!!!

OPTION 2, 3, 4, etc...
FF URGING US TO KEEP SEARCHING FOR THESE, WHICH MAY OR MAY NOT EXIST, COMPLETELY UNKNOWN AS TO WHETHER THEY'RE FEASIBLE, CANNOT BE FULLY EVALUATED BECAUSE OF THE URGENCY AT WHICH AN INTERIM SOLUTION WILL NEED TO BE FOUND

Which would you back ?

phog

Liam Byrne wrote:

Funny, that - "not giving support to finding a resolution" ??

There IS a fairly simple and straightforward solution available - the FF Government get off their arses and use the votes that they deliberately kept so that they WOULD have a say in how AL operates.

So, rather than attacking Amazo for not coming up with an ALTERNATIVE solution, why not query why your own organisation not only REFUSES to support a resolution that they don't have to "find", but they also trot out the line that they CAN'T INTERFERE, even though as SHAREHOLDERS they CAN ??

OPTION 1
OBVIOUS, IN FRONT OF THEIR NOSES & DO-ABLE, BUT IGNORED BY FF, PLUS THEY LIE ABOUT HOW THEY "CAN'T INTERFERE"......CHECK YOUR SHAREHOLDER DOCUMENT, BERTIE!!!!!

OPTION 2, 3, 4, etc...
FF URGING US TO KEEP SEARCHING FOR THESE, WHICH MAY OR MAY NOT EXIST, COMPLETELY UNKNOWN AS TO WHETHER THEY'RE FEASIBLE, CANNOT BE FULLY EVALUATED BECAUSE OF THE URGENCY AT WHICH AN INTERIM SOLUTION WILL NEED TO BE FOUND

Which would you back ?

Where have you read that I'm a member of FF? That's my argument with "amazo" in the first place. He mentioned me in a earlier post as would be FF voter regardless of what they did - up to and including getting a kick in face from Bertie.

To get back to the issue - I want the government to get directly involved and solve the lack of slots to Heathrow. I don't care if thats AL or any other airline but we need the connections.

Liam Byrne

I stand corrected and apologies for the insult / slur on your intelligence level.

You'd have to admit that it's strange to see a neutral defending FF, with their track record, but sorry again.

highlydebased

On RTE Radio 1 they are discussing Shannon at the moment

Amazotheamazing

phog wrote:

I take it from your posts that you are happier to be FF bashing than to giving support to finding a resolution to the lost slots. If that makes you happy than you can sleep easy in your bed.

BTW - rather than diviating on this thread with your anti FF and anti anyone who doesn't agree with you why don't you start a thread on all the damage that FF have done to the Midwest?

Typical FF, refuse to admit the many mistakes they've made.

I told you we could force a solution very quickly if the FF TD's threatened to walk out of Gov, and bring down the Gov, but they won't. Instead we have laughable situation where FF-lead Gov are being forced to abstain in a vote on AL future.

5h4mr0(k

Amazotheamazing wrote:

... situation where FF-lead Gov are being forced to abstain in a vote on AL future.

If FF abstain, and don't vote in favour of AL management, then there's only 75% if the votes remaining. Would that mean the Ryanair 29% and the unions few percent, I think it's 8 or 9, would be enough to overturn the decision? Does it require 50% of the total share holders, or just 50% of the votes on the day?

hobie

Wednesday, 29th August, 2007
Minister for Transport Noel Dempsey insisted today the Government would do all it could to assist the Shannon Airport Authority in finding another airline to operate the Shannon-Heathrow route following the decision by Aer Lingus to scrap its service.

he said while the Government recognised the decision by Aer Lingus would have "some impact", it was important not to over-emphasise the effect on Shannon Airport and the region as a whole.

It makes you sleep well to know the man in control knows what he is talking about ....


http://home.eircom.net/content/irelandcom/breaking/11005964?view=Eircomnet

phog

Amazotheamazing wrote:

Typical FF, refuse to admit the many mistakes they've made.

I told you we could force a solution very quickly if the FF TD's threatened to walk out of Gov, and bring down the Gov, but they won't. Instead we have laughable situation where FF-lead Gov are being forced to abstain in a vote on AL future.

Who's FF? if you read my posts you'll should see that I'm not FF, just becasue I mentioned the I thought the boycott proposal by the former Mayor of Limerick was a publicity stunt doesn't make me FF.

On your other point do you honestly believe that threat by FF TDs to walk away from supporting the government would bring down the government your more gullible than I thought, they would at least have to vote against the government on an issue that the rest of the opposition would support, even then I'm not sure how many people would want an election so soon after the recent one.

hobie

Has anyone actually seen Bertie? ......

I'm not sure if anyone has seen him since the LHR news broke?.....

ninty9er

On Bertie, I'm not sure when I last saw him, but then again it's definitley been longer since Enda Kenny, self proclaimed champion of the west was seen and I don't see Amazo or anyone bitchning about that despite displaying obvious signs of having voted for the "alternative". So where is this man you love so much

Now I could continnue along this line of questioning like your drivel against Phog, but I won't.

I'm not a very happy camper at the moment as regards the Aer Lingus decision,

BUT if you take your head out of the sand (I'm being polite here:mad: :mad: ) long enough to check; the primary purpose of the governments stake in Aer Lingus is to preventg a merger/take-over and NOT to control the copmpany. This was quite publicly clear at the time.

Ryanair and the Govt own approx 55% of the compnay meaning there is only a max voting power of approx 45% at any EGM as both have to abstain (as the EC would deem Ryanair to be interfering with a competitor and the govt. can't support or vote against the board). The unions have been buying up shares for weeks. ESOT has 12% meaning that only a further 14% is needed for a watertight reversal of the decision.

Therefore less than 1/4 of the company's shareholders can reverse this decision.

billy the squid

ninty9er wrote:

BUT if you take your head out of the sand (I'm being polite here:mad: :mad: ) long enough to check; the primary purpose of the governments stake in Aer Lingus is to preventg a merger/take-over and NOT to control the copmpany. This was quite publicly clear at the time.

Funny you should say the same thing as dempsey hours after he said it, and not before.

The horse **** about the hostile take over is moot as Ryanair, the only company which seems to be interested in Aer Lingus, is blocked from buying more than 29.9 percent by the eu.

A hostile take over would be unlikely anyway given that Esot, the pilots and the institutions own more than 25 percent. The institutions would do what the board tell them, and if the board tells them not to accept a take over offer, they wont.

Ryanair and the Govt own approx 55% of the compnay meaning there is only a max voting power of approx 45% at any EGM as both have to abstain (as the EC would deem Ryanair to be interfering with a competitor and the govt. can't support or vote against the board). The unions have been buying up shares for weeks. ESOT has 12% meaning that only a further 14% is needed for a watertight reversal of the decision.

This is a lie. The government and Ryanair are perfectly entitled to vote as the EGM as they are shareholders. They do not have to abstain.

ninty9er

billy the squid wrote:

Funny you should say the same thing as dempsey hours after he said it, and not before.

The horse **** about the hostile take over is moot as Ryanair, the only company which seems to be interested in Aer Lingus, is blocked from buying more than 29.9 percent by the eu.

A hostile take over would be unlikely anyway given that Esot, the pilots and the institutions own more than 25 percent. The institutions would do what the board tell them, and if the board tells them not to accept a take over offer, they wont.



This is a lie. The government and Ryanair are perfectly entitled to vote as the EGM as they are shareholders. They do not have to abstain.

Bull...you and I both know that the Management of Aer Lingus would go screaming and shouting to the EC if Ryanair blocked a set-up in Belfast to feather it's own nest.

And...Just because Ryanair is barred from swallowing Aer Lingus doesn't mean other airlines that don't currenlty operate in Ireland are.

hobie

On Bertie, I'm not sure when I last saw him, but then again it's definitley been longer since Enda Kenny

What the $$$$$$$$$ has Enda got to do with it ..... It's Bertie who's running the $$$$$$$$$$$ show ......

ps. for all Enda's fans ..... think he is just back from his Hols and where is he going now? .....

why, the Mid West of course and fair play to him ...... I think he is coming down this evening ? .....

Maybe he could give Bertie a lift down ..... we would all love to see the guy we voted for and ask him what the hell he is doing these days ...... :mad:

5h4mr0(k

Since the government has said that they couldn't/wouldn't interfere in the running of a private company, then I presume that they won't be voting in favour of the AL proposal - since that would be interfering as well, wouldn't it?!

ninty9er

5h4mr0(k wrote:

Since the government has said that they couldn't/wouldn't interfere in the running of a private company, then I presume that they won't be voting in favour of the AL proposal - since that would be interfering as well, wouldn't it?!

finally, someone who's listening!!

hobie

ninty9er wrote:

finally, someone who's listening!!

and me too .......

I listened to the Government doing it in its pants when they realized their 25% strategic share of EI would be taken from them under compulsory takeover rules, in Ryanair's takeover of EI ..... Goverment interfering in a private companys actions was fine then ..... :rolleyes:

Remember .... the 25% startegic stake in EI is considered very important .... $$$ knows why ....

maybe it makes the fact that they gave Aer Lingus 3/4 Billion euro's worth of Heathrow slots for nothing, a tiny bit easier to swallow ....:p

billy the squid

What is this Mary o rourke is supposed to have said on Today FM. the government should not assist shannon in getting heathrow flights.

Looks like we are going to have to erm "work like blacks" to stop her getting her way.

highlydebased

Minister for Transport (Forget his name, haha!) Said today he has expressed his disappointment to Aer Lingus, who clearly, dont really give a toss anymore re Shannon

billy the squid

"the government is united" is fianna fail speak for "willie has been put back on his leash."

Liam Byrne

Always thought of Noel Dempsey as a crap arrogant, do-nothing gob****e (his inaction and statistical lies on Broadband were laughable) but his statement this morning that the fiasco was "fun and games" and that the FF TDs will "meekly troop back into line" is astonishing.

FF must obviously have given up on getting any votes in the Mid-West next time around.....

His other statement - "we are not going to collude with a rival of Aer Lingus"......forget the promises to the Irish people - saving face is more important.

Of course, according to the rewritten history, the government apparently "kept its shares in order to prevent a hostile takeover of Aer Lingus and to prevent the Heathrow routes being sold off completely" - forget the fact that that's not what they said at the time, it's what they're saying now, so it must be true [like a Bertie "where did I get the cash" question] and if it suits them later, they'll change "the truth" again.

Once upon a time, it seemed like it was policy that anything an FF TD wrote down needed to be written in invisible ink; now, having had the people vote for them regardless of the cock-ups, corruption and lies, they don't even bother doing that anymore.....[most of] the electorate don't care about truth, consistency, promises and ethics, so why should they ?