Shannon-Heathrow discussion [merged]

1huge1

Squid ive heard that before about it being the world second busiest route aswell actually, can't remember where though sorry.

ninty9er

Liam Byrne wrote:

Can you give CONCLUSIVE EVIDENCE that a MAJORITY of 4.5 million people wanted the Government to buy out the M50 using OUR money so that the Dubs could get to work quicker/easier ?

Majorities don't work that way - or at least they shouldn't......there are a million other factors than simple majorities, but then maybe you've just given us an insight into how FF manages to make such crap decisions.

Did a MAJORITY want Aer Lingus sold in the first place ?
Did a MAJORITY want the U.S. to use Shannon ?
Did a MAJORITY want e-voting machines ?
Did a MAJORITY want zero-tolerance on crime ? (er, yeah, but that's the only one of the above that FF actually reneged on)

Well that's the majority the government was elected on, so unless you want to change the whole definition of a majority that's the way it operates.

I imagine the majority of 4.5 million people use the M50 at least once a week so yes in answer to that one. It also frees up traffic on the surrounding road network so conclusively I can't give an answer, but probably...yes

I can't even provide evidence that any Aer Lingus staff outside of Shannon could be arsed about the Shannon LHR route. Just anti-Belfast, which are 2 different things

I didn't want Aer Lingus privatised...I'm now being proven right in that matter with this whole debacle. If I had my way, I would have sacrificed HSE administrators, a few hospital consultants, the Social Welfare budget for long term unemployed and Revenue mandarins to finance a complete nationalisation of Aer Lingus with the Minister for Transport as Chairman of the Board.

Liam Byrne wrote:

Ah yes, the FF-reasoning for allowing this to be done NOW, instead of before the election. The inference being that Irish people are as thick and forgetful as our Taoiseach........sorry, mate - that might have worked before (and for some reason it worked in this year's election too) but the backlash against FF's arrogance and hand-washing is MUCH bigger this time, and I for one will make damn sure that a COMPLETE list of FF's activities is available on the net (and elsewhere) in the run-up to the next election.

And no (before you do a Bertie and claim an agenda or a bias), I'm not anti-FF; I'm anti-arseholes in Government.

It's pathetic, though.....heard a re-run of Willie O'Dea's interview on The Last Word this morning, and he was going on about it being unfair because of a family funeral.....taking a leaf from Bertie's "it was marital problems" approach and again ignoring the issue; the issue (to me) isn't what Willie did or didn't do in South's - it's what he did and didn't do in the Dail.

And who's the one who did/didn't do what was required ? Willie.

I could see a commercial decision coming a mile off and I even voiced such a concern, but the opposition were explicit in support of the sale of AL too, so don't imagine the situation would be any different with a FG/LAB/PD/SF/GP/IND government, which remains the only alternative to what we have. I imagine that government would have collapsed long ago over this issue.

Don't kid yourself, I can promise you. If FF were in opposition, we'd be shouting the odds at FG and Labour and the rest for inaction on this. Because they would most likely have don less that the government we have...who knows....but they certainly wouldn't have **forced**an AL turnaround.

People are blind to this....they can see only faults and are very slow to praise. In fairness when was the last time a government TD was priased for lobbying for DAST grant funding or legislative breakthrough.

After all, we elect our government to legislate, yet we expect x,y and z but nothing in the line of legislation. Can you blame TD if they play the system by "getting x done for y". The people get what they deserve and I still believe they got the best available. Now I'm not by any means saying that's all rosy, but yet again we're the best of a bad bunch. I didn't get involved in politics to accept the status quo, but the status quo isn't going to change overnight and it's certainly not going to be changed by a 20 year old student.

cancan

ninty9er wrote:

.

3. Can ANY of you give CONCLUSIVE EVIEDENCE that a MAJORITY of 4.5 million people in the country want the government to intervene. As many of you have been keen to point out it is a government's responsibility to represent the views of the majority. The Mid-West and West serviced by the SNN-LHR route comes to no more than 750,000 tops

Hmm - if we held that logic, the disabled, umemployed, immigrants and sick would have no representation. The majority rule way of ruling does not make a country better.
Do you honestly believe that what is happening in shannon is for the good of the country in the long run? Do you not realise that mannions bad management has cost the tax payer 76 million this year alone?
If not, then it's obviously a bad thing overall - and if it is a bad thing, the 4.5 million will suffer to some degree because of this decesion, whether it's higer taxes because of a bigger mid west unemployment rate, or higher living expenses because ireland has no alternative home to industry than the pale and it's environs, and those living there increase an even greater decline in life quality.

I wish those in charge had the balls to come out one way or the other. It's boardering on pathetic the reaction of the government so far.

Granted the extra flights from dublin make is easier for them to go pick up their brown paper bags filled with sterling from various "business men" around england whose planning applications in ireland have absolutly no bearing on their contents.

Well, finna fail and aer lingus will loose in the long run. As a budget airline air lingus doesn't stand a chance competing with ryan air - their share price is proving this. With their structure, they are attempting to open up a two euro shop next to a one euro one, while attempting to sell the same rubbish. The management fails to see that their cost base is so high, and will continue to be so, that their current cost cutting is an exersize in futility.


After our current leaders are ousted because of their amazing ability to take credit for the good, while ignoring the bad, I'll put money down that you will not see a FF majority in this country for 30 years. They had an amazing opportunity, and they blew it, and history will judge them as such...
A generation of back slappers has managed to turn a whole new generation off public service, and for that, they can be proud

billy the squid

A solidarity demonstration is being organised for Limerick City for the retention of Shannon heathrow

When: 1400 hrs 20 October
Where: O'Connell Street, Limerick

highlydebased

The ACA has now applied for slots (Not much of a chance of getting them, mind). And Astreaus Airlines would be interested flying the route if they do get the slots. Not much point- no codeshare etc etc

http://www.pr-inside.com/campaign-to-retain-shannon-heathrow-service-r244324.htm

Lazers pew pew

Can we get the thread title amended to highlight the march in town on saturday

I hope we'll all be there

Edited for mongy spelling

billy the squid

Done

hobie

Oh good'y ..... :rolleyes:

someone in power did know about it weeks before the decision was confirmed and made public .....

The Minister for Transport, Noel Dempsey, has blamed human error as the reason he did not immediately get a file showing that Aer Lingus intended to end the Shannon to Heathrow link.

His department received the file in early June, six weeks before the minister learned of the decision.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/1018/aerlingus.html

billy the squid

hobie wrote: »

Oh good'y ..... :rolleyes:

someone in power did know about it weeks before the decision was confirmed and made public .....



http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/1018/aerlingus.html

hobie

Do you know something .....

I've never felt so angry about anything as this debacle, in my whole $$$$$$$$$$ life .... :mad:

panda100

hobie wrote: »

Do you know something .....

I've never felt so angry about anything as this debacle, in my whole $$$$$$$$$$ life .... :mad:

And so you should!
I urge everyone to get to the streets this Saturday to show their solidarity with the aer lingus workers and show their disgust at the handling of this whole affair by the goverment.
People power thats what we need!

Lazers pew pew

there's a good day of sports on though

panda100

billy the squid wrote: »

Oh by the way...ROFL!

highlydebased

Dowjones report: Cityjet to make decison in next month

ATHENS -(Dow Jones)- Dublin-based regional carrier CityJet, a unit of Air France-KLM (AKH), will decide within the next four weeks whether to start flights linking Ireland's Shannon Airport with Charles de Gaulle airport in Paris.

The route would give Shannon a critical link to an international hub -something it will be without from the start of 2008 when Ireland's flag carrier, Aer Lingus Group PLC (EIL1.DB), moves operations from Shannon to Belfast and replaces its Shannon-Heathrow routes with direct flights from Belfast to Heathrow instead.

"We are evaluating the economics of the route," Geoffrey O'Byrne White, Chief Executive of CityJet, told Dow Jones Newswires late Thursday on the sidelines of a regional airlines conference in Athens. "Within the next four weeks we will decide."

Labor unions and business groups have said axing the Shannon-Heathrow link will hurt Ireland's midwest region and seriously damage the capacity of the region's business and tourist sectors to maintain current commercial activity.

Shannon is currently served by low-cost carriers who fly mainly point-to-point and do not have the global network of one of the major airline groups. As a result, a businessman flying from, say, Shanghai, would have to change carriers to reach Shannon.

Earlier this year, the Shannon Airport Authority approached the Air France-KLM group with a special offer to initiate flights between Shannon and either Charles de Gaulle or Schiphol/Amsterdam.

"With a network carrier you have a global distribution system -at least you are on the radar," said O'Byrne White. "We would switch from traditionally connecting people through Heathrow, to connecting people through Charles de Gaulle."

EDIT---- Aer Lingus pilots have voted 80% in favour of a move from Shannon

phog

panda100 wrote: »

And so you should!
I urge everyone to get to the streets this Saturday to show their solidarity with the aer lingus workers and show their disgust at the handling of this whole affair by the goverment.
People power thats what we need!

I thought this was all about the Mid West losing connectivity if it's to show solidarity with Aer lingus employees then I think I'll head to Coonagh to support the other "Shannon" in their bid to beat Garryowen in the 1/4 Final of the Munster Senior Cup.

MonsieurD

Willie O' Dea is Limerick's highest placed politician. Limerick has delivered his success to him by giving him quantities of votes that are only the dreams of politicians in other parts of Ireland.

He owes Limerick big time!!! For years, FF ignored him (even with his huge vote turn out at election time) - but Limerick continued to back him. Eventually, FF had to give him a ministership - it became an embarrassment not to! So they gave him Defence - the portfolio nobody else wanted.

By all accounts (and that includes friends of mine who have gone to Willie for assistance in a variety of matters) he is both a good local politician and a very amicable guy.

Today (21/10/2007) may prove a very costly day for Willie. The march in Limk city has shown that the spirit of revolution is alive in the people of the Midwest. Willie needs to repay the people of Limk for their many years of loyalty to him, by coming out strongly in support of the retainment of the Snn-Heathrow slots.

great unwashed

Just like to know if anyone has an opinion on the 'commerciality' (free market and all) of Aer Lingus having Heathrow slots but not Ryanair? After all it is the biggest hub etc...

therecklessone

great unwashed wrote: »

Just like to know if anyone has an opinion on the 'commerciality' (free market and all) of Aer Lingus having Heathrow slots but not Ryanair? After all it is the biggest hub etc...

What makes you think Ryanair want to fly into Heathrow?

panda100

Would really like to know what numbers turned out today for the protest in Limerick?If someone could give me a rough estimate? thanks

highlydebased

great unwashed wrote: »

Just like to know if anyone has an opinion on the 'commerciality' (free market and all) of Aer Lingus having Heathrow slots but not Ryanair? After all it is the biggest hub etc...

Do you realise how much slots cost in Heathrow? At least 2million PER PAIR! Plus landing fees, pax fees may be too high, and, the time spent getting in and out of Heathrow is too much for Ryanair.


Around 4000 marched yesterday I believe

limerick_man

Official Garda estimates are at 10,000. RTE seem to actually be playing down the entire event, they reported 4000 (they are the only ones to report such a low figure) and when reporting about John Cregan they said he was jeered at times during his speech but they showed a peaceful crowd and even edited in the crowd clapping at him to end the piece?!?!!?!?!??! What the hell is going on??

He was booed off, he spoke for about 50secs and was taken off stage... why are RTE going against official figures and even editing it so it looked like the crowd appauldded (sp?) Cregan??

1huge1

Anyone got any pics or videos of the event?

panda100

limerick_man wrote: »

Official Garda estimates are at 10,000. RTE seem to actually be playing down the entire event, they reported 4000 (they are the only ones to report such a low figure) and when reporting about John Cregan they said he was jeered at times during his speech but they showed a peaceful crowd and even edited in the crowd clapping at him to end the piece?!?!!?!?!??! What the hell is going on??

He was booed off, he spoke for about 50secs and was taken off stage... why are RTE going against official figures and even editing it so it looked like the crowd appauldded (sp?) Cregan??

Ah yes our delightful democratic media!I wouldnt believe anything I watch on the rte news as they constantly distort things to make the goverment look better.
John Cregan gave a speech?!What was he thinking?!I thought he voted against the retention of shannon/heathrow?
Wow 10,000 on the streets.Fair play to the peopple of Limerick.Lets hope this action acheives something though I dont hold out much hope.The power of the buissness men over our goverment is a lot stronger then the power of us people. You only have to look at the people of Rossport to see this.

Just out of intrest If this debacle had erupted before the elections would the boardies of Limerick have voted diffferntly?

highlydebased

Theres probably clips on the RTE website


Indeed garda stats are 10k while RTE reporting 4k

Estimated I presume?

billy the squid

1huge1 wrote: »

Anyone got any pics or videos of the event?

I have the entire event bar the last two speakers (siptu guy and rugby guy) uploaded on to google video but it is "processing." the first two parts of the event are availible through the blog. john Cregan getting booed off was in part three, which is almost ready to be posted.

1huge1

Thanks Squid

billy the squid

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3833558287330207218&hl=en

Here is the clip of Creegan being booed off.

hobie

What conclusions would you draw from this ......

http://www.aerlingus.com/cgi-bin/obel01im1/bookonline/index.jsp?campid=50off_eircom250x250

hobie

Neon-Circles wrote: »

Do you realise how much slots cost in Heathrow? At least 2million PER PAIR! Plus landing fees, pax fees may be too high, and, the time spent getting in and out of Heathrow is too much for Ryanair.

LHR slots are rougly 20 million pounds stg each ..... call it 30 million euro each ....

SNN slots value ...... call it 120 million ..... EI were given the best part of one billion euro's worth of LHR slots for nothing as part of privatization .... nice deal .... :rolleyes:

see the problem in getting a new carrier ........

vkid

well this stinks from high heaven. Sure if the DAA told Shannon they might have been able to do something about it..ie..reduce costs. Absolute disgrace!!! The DAA are still in control and they were quite happy to see SNN's slots go


DAA kept Shannon threat confidential
Monday, 22 October 2007 07:28

The Dublin Airport Authority did not tell management at Shannon airport of a threat to the future of flights to Heathrow.

The Authority learned of a possibility the service was to be discontinued in the middle of June.

A spokesman for the DAA said it did not pass the information on because it had been given to it by Aer Lingus in the strictest confidence.