Aer Lingus transfer SNN-LHR flights to BFS

Schuhart

According to RTE

Aer Lingus is set to cease direct flights between Shannon and Heathrow and transfer the link to Aldergrove airport in Northern Ireland.

The official announcement will be made by the Aer Lingus chief executive Vermot Mannion after he meets Aer Lingus personnel in Shannon on Tuesday morning and then attends a news conference at Stormont on Tuesday afternoon.

Sort of changes perceptions of what 'Ireland' is when you forget the border.

As for Shannon, given the amount of business they lost the country because of their penchant for transatlantic piracy, all I can think is 'Ha Ha'.

Sarsfield

It's going to be fun watching the reaction to this. The local pols Shannonside must be apoplectic.

Irish Wolf

It actually will be very intersting to see how our minister of defense reacts to this decision.. it's not in his constituency but it will affect a lot of people who are..

Seems like an odd decision to me as the flight was pretty much always full anytime I took it.. and it cuts everyone off in the Mid West region who are hoping to get a connection through LHR..

Zoney

Sarsfield wrote:

It's going to be fun watching the reaction to this. The local pols Shannonside must be apoplectic.

Quite right. It's a disaster for quite a large part of the country. We should really all just give up now and move to Greater Dublin and resign ourselves to several hours commuting each day.

Irish Wolf- the decision isn't entirely about patronage of the route - it's about the limited slots at Heathrow. Aer Lingus figure they can make more money servicing a route entirely outside this State. If they had enough slots they'd probably keep Shannon-Heathrow *and* run Aldergrove-Heathrow.

Victor

Zoney wrote:

Quite right. It's a disaster for quite a large part of the country. We should really all just give up now and move to Greater Dublin and resign ourselves to several hours commuting each day.

Why not move to greater Belfast?

Shannon still has lots of destinations http://www.shannonairport.com/flight-info/index.html?interest=%2Fflight-info%2Findex.html&imageField.x=12&imageField.y=8 (click on View Route Map)

markf909

At least when the WRC opens folks in the west will be able to utilise it to take the train to Knock or Cork to get their flights to London.

NewDubliner

Zoney wrote:

the decision isn't entirely about patronage of the route - it's about the limited slots at Heathrow. Aer Lingus figure they can make more money servicing a route entirely outside this State.

Well, everyone's been calling for public-sector privitisation and for public-sector outfits to behave more like the provate sector.

Sometimes, if you're unlucky, you get what you wish for.

There was talk on the radio, that local interests in Limerick would call on the government to subsidise the Shannon-Heathrow route.

FlutterinBantam

Why all the fuss.???

Aer Lingus Mgmnt are doing what they are paid to do,manage the resources of the airline to provide the best return for the shareholders.

Tough on Shannon, but the folk in Mullingar and Carlow havn't a direct service to LHR either.

Get over it and get on with it.

antoinolachtnai

The issue is that the whole point of the State maintaining a 25 percent share in the airline was that stuff like this wasn't supposed to happen. Now it has happened. It turns out that Aer Lingus can do anything they like with those Heathrow slots.

It happened this way because the government didn't structure the sale of the company properly. Now the government is sitting with a useless, worthless 25 percent stake in the company which is of no use whatsoever to influence the airline and is nothing but a political liability.

Hagar

I think that there is a longer term agenda for Shannon that is not being made public. I think we will see it becoming more militarised and not by the Irish Army. I suspect it may well become a permanent major staging post for the US with a full time military base there. It's being drained of all other viability so that when the military option is put forward, no matter how un-palletable it is, it will have to be accepted or close down the place completely.

Crackpot conspiracy theory? Maybe. Time will tell.

bowsie casey

... and now a large number of displaced SNN-LHR travellers will have to travel via Dublin, adding to an already over-crowded mess !!

I think it's a disgrace for the people of the West of Ireland that such essential infrastructure facilities can be taken away. Aer Lingus is now a private companym and can do what it likes, but the Government needs to ensure in some way that further marginalization of people in the Mid West is not allowed to continue.

Schuhart

bowsie casey wrote:

... and now a large number of displaced SNN-LHR travellers will have to travel via Dublin, adding to an already over-crowded mess !!

Or they could try Cork. But you are right. We should see Dublin as a national resource and invest in it accordingly, instead of hamstring it like we did with the Shannon stopover.

bowsie casey wrote:

the Government needs to ensure in some way that further marginalization of people in the Mid West is not allowed to continue.

Like hijack planes and force them to land there, like they used to do to transatlantic flights?

bowsie casey

Schuhart wrote:

Or they could try Cork. But you are right. We should see Dublin as a national resource and invest in it accordingly, instead of hamstring it like we did with the Shannon stopover.

That is not what I said....there is no need for Ireland to have most of the population going through Dublin airport. A more balanced approach with support for regional airports will improve the economic development opportunities throughout Ireland, rather than just in the Pale.

As for flying from Cork....it would be quicker to drive to Dublin for anybody north of Limerick. Of course, this is only adding to the already congested roads....

Schuhart

bowsie casey wrote:

A more balanced approach with support for regional airports will improve the economic development opportunities throughout Ireland, rather than just in the Pale.

Shannon got the breaks and failed to deliver. Time to give someone else a chance.

I'm not sure mindsets have quite got the message - we're now in a situation where we are looking back at the failure of the policy of dotting the Western seaboard with airports. Why did the Mid West fail to leverage the expensive benefits given to it?

bowsie casey wrote:

As for flying from Cork....it would be quicker to drive to Dublin for anybody north of Limerick. Of course, this is only adding to the already congested roads....

Unfortunately, fantasy has to meet reality at some stage. As you know, road journey times are being addressed so this picture of congested roads is hardly meaningful as people are already talking in terms of the Cork alternative.

At present, its a choice if you really need to be in LHR. Drive to Dublin if that's truly quicker and put up with congestion or drive to Cork and avail of their nice new terminal. That's as much choice as people in Mullingar have.

Flukey

They could reduce, but not withdraw. There is no need to cut the service completely. If it is not paying its way, but they are getting passengers, then just reduce the Shannon service and start a Belfast service too.

FlutterinBantam

They could reduce....... yes they could..... but....

Its the cost of maintaining ground coverage and handling that dictates this decision. People work 8 hrs a day irrespective of the workload and to reduce would bring in a part time situation which would not be viable in the long run.

Its a commercial decision which was inevitable once the airline was privatised.

it would be like the GAA using Cusack Park Ennis capacity say 20,000 for a big Dubs game,when Croker with an 80k+ capacity lay fallow.

Shannon has very little commercial importance as a MAJOR Intl airport due to geographical reasons. Its future lies in low cost regional traffic.

Let's get a bit real here please.

gjim

antoinolachtnai wrote:

It happened this way because the government didn't structure the sale of the company properly. Now the government is sitting with a useless, worthless 25 percent stake in the company which is of no use whatsoever to influence the airline and is nothing but a political liability.

Absolutely correct. The 25% is worthless; it's worse than worthless because it encourages ineffectual politcal meddling. The landing slots should have been hived off into a separate holding entity. This holding company would be 100% publicly owned while the actual airline could have been sold off completely. The holding company could lease the slots to Aer Lingus (or any other airline, for that matter) which would retain public control of the Heathrow slots without any state ownership of any airline.

BuffyBot

Its the cost of maintaining ground coverage and handling that dictates this decision. People work 8 hrs a day irrespective of the workload and to reduce would bring in a part time situation which would not be viable in the long run.

Not nessecarily. That's what groundhandling companies like Aviance etc are for.

FlutterinBantam

And Aer Lingus have a big history in using ground handling companies IN IRELAND have they???

PhoenixRising

The public got what the public wanted - a privatised Aer Lingus. You can't cry foul when Aer Lingus now acts in the interests of it's shareholders and not the State.

antoinolachtnai

Flukey wrote:

They could reduce, but not withdraw. There is no need to cut the service completely. If it is not paying its way, but they are getting passengers, then just reduce the Shannon service and start a Belfast service too.

Well, this is supposed to be a service for business passengers. If you don't have a certain level of frequency, it's just not worth bothering. You're better to close it up completely. (It becomes like the 86 bus route in Dublin.)

BendiBus

Maybe Shannon Airport could get out there, act like a business (like Aer Lingus is doing) and compete for some business instead of demanding it as a God given right.

There are plenty of airlines and other hubs (Amsterdam, Paris, Frankfurt). Or Heathrow with another carrier.

If Shannon has a good case to make then they can win these routes. If not, then why should they get them?

testicle

Schuhart wrote:

As for Shannon, given the amount of business they lost the country because of their penchant for transatlantic piracy, all I can think is 'Ha Ha'.

That was the Government. Shannon didn't have the authority to do anything on its own until a few years ago

antoinolachtnai

BendiBus wrote:

Maybe Shannon Airport could get out there, act like a business (like Aer Lingus is doing) and compete for some business instead of demanding it as a God given right.

There are plenty of airlines and other hubs (Amsterdam, Paris, Frankfurt). Or Heathrow with another carrier.

If Shannon has a good case to make then they can win these routes. If not, then why should they get them?

The problem with other hubs is that you won't be able to fill a plane to these destinations or anything like it. The longer flight time means that a lot more capital is required to service these routes to the same frequency. And not everyone is flying east.

And getting to Heathrow with another carrier just won't happen, because all of the landing slots are already committed to other things.

dowlingm

If the Government want to prop up Shannon, they should move the Air Corps HQ and fixed wing ops to SNN, rotary to the Curragh, the Government jollyjets to DUB and close/sell Baldonnel. (If the Navy can call Cork home...)

Messing around in commercial ops should be resisted by EI as well as FR and the other commercial operators to UK dests.

Schuhart

testicle wrote:

That was the Government. Shannon didn't have the authority to do anything on its own until a few years ago

Lets not be disingenuous. The stopover was the result of loobying by Shannon airport advocates - who even got our Government to use up political capital in Washington to lobby to keep the stopover for as long as possible.

Shannon was quite happy with politically motivated decisions so long as they were the beneficiaries, and regardless of the costs on anyone else.

FlutterinBantam

Exactly!!!

The_Conductor

Personally I think that it is a shame that the routes are to be closed and moved to Belfast instead. The idea of the government subsidising a Shannon to LHR route, is unfortunately, a total non-runner. Aside from the legalities- it would by definition be an illegal state aid, not covered under the De Minis rules.

As others have pointed out again and again on this thread- Shannon is an unusual airport. Its being and raison d'etre are political in nature, and down the years it was supported through actions that had no economic reasoning in nature.

What we really have to remember is that Ireland is a tiny country- and its simply not possible to have an airport, a hospital, a university, a manufacturing base etc- in every county and consituency. Ireland seems to operate on the basis of parochial politics- where everyone wants everything in their immediate vicinity and doesn't really care what the implications of policies such as that are on the rest of the people in the country.

Despite the loss of the LHR slots from Shannon- instead of wailing to our politicians to try to do something- why not proactively try to see what could be done to capitalise on the situation? I.e. LHR is full, but the other London airports are not- and Stansted is due to open a second runway and have a dedicated rail-link to Paddington by 2014 (funding was approved in February of this year).

A conscious decision to invest all our political capital at Shannon over the years has meant that the other 2 main airports are dreadfully under developed (with the exception of the lovely new terminal at Cork- which is brilliant). Cork badly needs its main runway elongated, so it can handle new A300 and future style aircraft, Dublin needs both a new terminal along with massive elongation of its runways.

By rights if the budget airlines were shifted out of Dub (along the lines as was proposed by Ulick McEvady)- and viable raillinks between the two airports established, Dublin might be able to function (its not functional at the moment- its a sodding disaster).

The big problem here in Ireland is there is no joined up thinking, and there never has been. Its a series of plastering over cracks as they occur, and pandering to local politicians demands and bargaining. What we really need to do is recognise that we are a small little country operating in an open economy- and buckle down and act like one- helping each other out rather than moaning and bitching and backstabbing each other at every opportunity. So what that the Dubliners have an international airport- they also have average 3 hour commutes every day. So what that Cork has a new terminal- and it hasn't been paid for- I don't remember anyone holding up a sign to say Sligo people aren't allowed to use it. So what that we don't have cancer care facilities in every county in the country- as a country as a whole, Ireland and France are considered to be yards ahead of the rest of Europe.

The degree of pettiness in this country never ceases to amaze me.......

BuffyBot

FlutterinBantam wrote:

And Aer Lingus have a big history in using ground handling companies IN IRELAND have they???

In the past, no. But that's the past.

dowlingm

Zoney wrote:

Aer Lingus figure they can make more money servicing a route entirely outside this State.

Well... there are *at least* 4 TDs that don't consider BFS "outside the State".

The_Conductor

dowlingm wrote:

*at least*

Lol.....
Most of the rest of the population doesn't either
We've all had history rammed down our throats afterall!

Slice

Aer Lingus haven't yet said if they're withdrawing the service completely or just reducing it. Ryanair also fly Shannon to London so this is really a non-issue. It will become even more of a non-issue once Terminal 5 and the additional runway is build at Heathrow because if there was any unsatisfied demand in Shannon more routes would open up.

billy the squid

Shannon to London isn't shannon to Heathrow though is it. you have a connecting long haul flight from heathrow, you will have to trapse accross the city of Londong.

And anyone coming in the opposite direction from a distant country, say russia, would require a visa for both ireland and the UK to get to shannon.

marmajam

Hagar wrote:

I think that there is a longer term agenda for Shannon that is not being made public. I think we will see it becoming more militarised and not by the Irish Army. I suspect it may well become a permanent major staging post for the US with a full time military base there. It's being drained of all other viability so that when the military option is put forward, no matter how un-palletable it is, it will have to be accepted or close down the place completely.

Crackpot conspiracy theory? Maybe. Time will tell.

This is no crackpot theory Hag. The problem with modern 'terror' conflict is that a minimum No. of operatives can pursue it. So essential to take all out if possible with 1st strike. Recent reports that CIA want Shannon to launch coordinated attacks Europe wide with fleet disguised in Ryanair livery. It seems Al-Queda is really grand extraterrestial alien plan gradually infiltrating planet through RTE radio waves.

MG

I see this as a very worrying development for the country outside of the Greater Dublin Area and Northern Ireland. Transport links are one of the fundamental building blocks of economic development and I can’t see it being easy to attract investment to the South and west if the transport links continue to be cut. I wonder how much of this move is based on Government subsidies from the UK and the South pouring in to the North. As a taxpayer I find it very worrying that our government seems to be overly concerned with the economic development of the North. Motorway standard road to Belfast are hardly what the taxpayers of the Cork, Limerick, Waterford and Galway etc routes need, yet this is the one which seems to be getting most development. On top of the attempts to hamper Cork airport, this is another blow which makes me worry about the future of the economy in the South and West if this continues.

The_Conductor

Its not the government who are cutting transport links- its private industry and private companies. The government has been very reasonable with road links for the most part- more worrying than the closure of the Heathrow routes, would be the preoccupation with PPP (Public Private Partnerships) as a manner of funding infrastructure in the country. Thus- we have the private hospitals on public hospital grounds- without any great hopes of improvement in service provision for the taxpayer (as private health care is a must for anyone who values their health- and don't get me started on the VHI, the largest supplier of private health care in the state, which just happens to be a wholly owned state body.......). Most new roads are being tolled, and even where tolls have a proven track record to being a disaster (ala the M50 tollbridge in Dublin) instead of learning from its mistakes the government is simply moving the toll elsewhere (from August 2008 its proposed to toll anyone approaching the M50, irrespective of whether they are going over the bridge or not). We're the only country in the world where the main arterial routes into our capital city are tolled...... If there were alternates, ala what they have on the continent- it would be livable with, but there are not.

I do not see the Shannon-Heathrow slots, and there potential demise, as benefitting the greater Dublin region and Northern Ireland at all...... The last thing that Dublin city needs is more people clogging up its roads on a trek to its pathetic airport. Dublin is a planning disaster, and at serious risk of implosion. Hell, the EU Commission hold a series of tours of the Dublin region for planning officials in the 10 new member states to show them what could potentially happen to them if they don't get their planning together.

The north is getting its "peace dividend" as politicians are so fond of putting it. The finances being invested there by the government is not large, its mostly EU money. Of far greater importance to the north than Irish taxpayers money are the proposals for equalisation of the tax regimes between the two jurisdictions- particularly corporation tax rates. The north is still an economic basket case, whether people like to admit it or not- with over 65% of employment in the public sector. There simply is no incentive for private companies to go in and set up (or indigenous industry to flourish)- much as could validly be argued for the rest of Ireland too. Its not as expensive to do business there as in the Republic, but the rewards simply aren't there. The development of the private sector (including Aerlingus' little stunt) is an attempt to try to break the stranglehold of apathy that they have been wallowing in.

Its not reasonable to try to break Ireland up into regions and focus on employment generation, provision of transport links, tax breaks etc on a region by region basis. Certainly there are lack of employment opportunities in many regions- but the much despised Dublin region, for all its purported employment opportunities, actually has far higher levels of unemployment than any other region in the country. Of the 22,000 people made redundant since the beginning of the year- over 14,000 were in the Dublin region (the next largest block being the 2,350 who were made redundant in the Cork region).

We have to stop playing the Cork and the South East, The greater Dublin Region, The Border-Midlands-West (BMW) region etc off against each other- and sit down and compose a joined up strategy for making this country of ours work. At the moment you have Udaras and other development boards stabbing each other in the back every day of the week as they try to differentiate themselves from each other and portray their particular region as a more important objective or target, than other regions. Its almost comical from a neutral perspective to see how the Jackeens are viewed by many people as sucking the life out of the rest of the country and how on a local level parochial, constituency and county rivalries spill over into an all-out grab for whatever is perceived to be going.

Under current proposals (part of Open Skies) Aerlingus is due to loose a number of its Heathrow slots, one way or the other, come what may. The proposals to built further runways at Stansted capable of being used by the latest Airbus and Boeing behemouths is what should be looked at. This means that within 12 years- Stansted will have developed into a competition international hub for Heathrow- only one with capacity, as opposed to Heathrow which is by virtue of its location hamstrung for future development (despite the proposals to build another run-way there which have subsequently been shot down).

Why focus on the negatives of the current situation with Aerlingus- why not instead view it as an opportunity to refocus what Shannon is, and what people want it to be- where it should go in the future, and how to get there.

Shannon airport was created as a political gesture in 1947- and it has developed very well since. If its to further develop- it needs to find a new reason for being. Originally aircraft had to stop there for refueling, it was simply far too expensive to try to carry sufficient fuel to land anywhere else. That was an economic reality that Shannon catered to. Modern aircraft do not have this problem- yet Shannon has not awoken to this new reality. Shannon has so much going for it- if only people would sit down and refocus what its meant to be, and for whom.

antoinolachtnai

How would Open Skies cause AL to lose Heathrow slots?

The government is directly responsible for this. It sold Ireland's rights to the slots with Aer Lingus for a knock-down price and it hasn't been able to use its 25 percent stake to control what happened to them.

The_Conductor

antoinolachtnai wrote:

How would Open Skies cause AL to lose Heathrow slots?

The government is directly responsible for this. It sold Ireland's rights to the slots with Aer Lingus for a knock-down price and it hasn't been able to use its 25 percent stake to control what happened to them.

Because the mixed mode operations which limit flights into Heathrow (particularly in the afternoon) will become a lot worse in the short run, when terminal 5 opens next March and BA transfers its operations there. The other terminals are due to be divvied up on an alliance basis, with Star Alliance in Terminal 1, One World Alliance in T3 (+ about 10% of BA), Skyteam Terminal 4, BA dedicated T5. Terminal 2 and most of the central airport is due to become a building site (possibly for 3-4 years- or however long it takes to develope it).

The proposals as they stand, will change the mixed mode flights, turning many of the short-haul and domestic slots (which includes Aerlingus under short-haul) into international slots. Aerlingus will still own the slots, but as they will then be international slots, as oppossed to short haul slots, in prime afternoon locations- the writing is on the wall.......

When T5 is properly populated and T2 redeveloped, the situation may change. The most immediate effect of Open Skies however, is the conversion of a number of the shorthaul slots into international ones.

I don't argue with you Antoin, that the Government botched the sale. Just as it did Eircom, PMPA and many other sales. However- the economic reality of life is- why land a plane from Dublin or Shannon (or Belfast) at Heathrow, when you can land a transatlantic one which is far more profitable (or so they hope......)

The reasons that Aldergrove makes immediate sense- is its a domestic flight- it does not incur necessarily high charges that make the use of Heathrow for other carriers very pricey. Aerlingus hope to cater to a business clientele, who are willing to pay a lot more for their flight, than the customer who is on a budget.

Its all in the finances.

Slice

Shannon to London isn't shannon to Heathrow though is it. you have a connecting long haul flight from heathrow, you will have to trapse accross the city of Londong

There are almost as many international flights out of Gatwick as there are out of Heathrow and there are also flights from Shannon to other hub airports such as Amsterdam and Paris. In terms of onward connections to the rest of the world this doesn't exactly herald the dark ages for Shannon that people seem to be making out.

BuffyBot

Shannon to Beauvais isn't any good for connections.

And I can't for the life of me think who does the Amsterdam route (if anyone), but I'm sure it isn't one of the bigger airlines

Chris_533976

I dont think theres a Shannon - Amsterdam route... I couldnt get one a few months ago and had to go via Dublin.

antoinolachtnai

smccarrick wrote:

The reasons that Aldergrove makes immediate sense- is its a domestic flight- it does not incur necessarily high charges that make the use of Heathrow for other carriers very pricey. Aerlingus hope to cater to a business clientele, who are willing to pay a lot more for their flight, than the customer who is on a budget.

Its all in the finances.

So it really costs a lot more to land a plane from Shannon in LHR than it does a plane from Belfast? (I am not doubting you, I'm just surprised.)

Surely Belfast-Heathrow is a highly competitive route to be getting involved in, whilst Shannon-Heathrow, Aer Lingus has to itself?

I just have a feeling this will all end in tears.

In the new Heathrow order you are describing, could EI fly a big plane to London every day, and then fly onwards to JFK, since it has its mitts on the slots?

The_Conductor

BuffyBot wrote:

And I can't for the life of me think who does the Amsterdam route (if anyone), but I'm sure it isn't one of the bigger airlines

I think its Skynet Airlines. Shannon based, they have only two routes, Amsterdam and Moscow......

The_Conductor

antoinolachtnai wrote:

In the new Heathrow order you are describing, could EI fly a big plane to London every day, and then fly onwards to JFK, since it has its mitts on the slots?

Its my understanding that yes, EI could do so. Whether they have any intention of doing so is another question though. BA and Virgin have it sewn up between themselves at present- but with open skies, god only knows what sort of cat that might throw among the pidgeons.

BendiBus

smccarrick wrote:

I think its Skynet Airlines. Shannon based, they have only two routes, Amsterdam and Moscow......

I thought they folded a couple of years ago.

Terrontress

As I understand it there is no route to LHR from BFS or BHD. I think bmi and flybe fly to LGW and Air France to LCY and from BFS EZY fly to LTN but I am not aware of any flights to LHR.

With the new road to Belfast, there will only be a further journey of 2 hours in the car to BFS. When you consider that it can take 45 minutes to park the car at DUB, it is not too surprising to think that people living in Dublin and along the North East will start to use BFS and BHD instead of DUB.

The new Easyjet routes as well as the EI announcement seemed to be announced to coincide with the new road being opened.

antoinolachtnai

I think BMI fly Heathrow-Belfast City. I seem to be able to book that anyway. There certainly used to be a flight.

BuffyBot

smccarrick wrote:

I think its Skynet Airlines. Shannon based, they have only two routes, Amsterdam and Moscow......

I think they are long gone.

The_Conductor

BendiBus wrote:

I thought they folded a couple of years ago.

No I thought Aeroflot bought them out.
They're still listed along with the route on the main Shannon airport page here.
I'm not sure if its current?
The contact details and page for Skynet are now part of the main Aeroflot site (unfortunately for me its in Russian). Its at: http://www.aeroflot.aero/
I'm not sure?

Shane

Victor

bowsie casey wrote:

... and now a large number of displaced SNN-LHR travellers will have to travel via Dublin, adding to an already over-crowded mess !!

Why via Dublin? Aren't Ryanair now doing Shannon-Belfast?

dowlingm

Here's an interesting one - remember the announcement that Aer Lingus was re-opening the Dublin-Gatwick route? According to another forum, the slots are coming from Continental who have Gatwick slots and want them for Heathrow so Aer Lingus have agreed a lease in exchange for a Gatwick slot lease. How quietly will that be announced I wonder?

The plot thickens!
http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2007/0807/breaking73.htm

According to this, Michael O'Leary has called on the govt to use their shareholding with his (total >50pc) to block the move!