Aer Lingus transfer SNN-LHR flights to BFS

fitzyshea

antoinolachtnai wrote:

The issue is that the whole point of the State maintaining a 25 percent share in the airline was that stuff like this wasn't supposed to happen. Now it has happened. It turns out that Aer Lingus can do anything they like with those Heathrow slots.

It happened this way because the government didn't structure the sale of the company properly. Now the government is sitting with a useless, worthless 25 percent stake in the company which is of no use whatsoever to influence the airline and is nothing but a political liability.

Why should the government have any say in a commerial airlines business? The board of aerlingus is there to get the best return for there sharholders money! Even if thats the government or ryanair or the staff of aerlingus.

Patrickof

smccarrick wrote:

Simultaneously they banned it from raising passenger fees to pay for it- ...
Corks new terminal is brilliant by the way- I very much doubt that Dublin airport will manage to build anything similar to it in terms of functionality and facilities.

This always gets to me, why should they be allowed to raise passenger fees to pay for a new terminal? The idea of a new terminal is to increase traffic, and this increased business should justify the increased investment on its own - otherwise it shouldn't be done.

I don't remember Arnotts putting up their prices to fund the refurbishment of their store a few years back.

ednwireland

MG wrote:

ednwireland wrote:

as far as i can see this is a commercial decision by AL because of the inherited cost base at shannon easier to start afresh at belfast.
QUOTE]

Interestingly the share price didn't seem to reflect it being a good commercial decision with a small gain in share price on around the day of the announcement attributed to Oil price falls.

yeh they also announced reduced load factors due to new planes on transatlantic if the stock market thought this was a bad decision i think youd have seen more movement

On short-haul flights the load factor rose to 82.2 percent from 81 percent, and on long-haul flights slipped to 80.8 percent from 87.5 percent.
the share price has hardly moved see attached gif

The_Conductor

Patrickof wrote:

This always gets to me, why should they be allowed to raise passenger fees to pay for a new terminal? The idea of a new terminal is to increase traffic, and this increased business should justify the increased investment on its own - otherwise it shouldn't be done.

I don't remember Arnotts putting up their prices to fund the refurbishment of their store a few years back.

They weren't able to raise the funding privately- as a state body with massive debts already (as the government is not allowed to underwrite the debts- once again under State Aid rules). So they were left to go and find the money- but simultaneously had the method of finding the money pulled from them.

Its no wonder that the board of Aerlingus wanted out, and the boards of the other State Bodies are hopping. There seems to be a policy- if at all possible, do nothing for as long as possible, and only when everything grinds to a halt should you go in fire fighting. Dublin airport is at firefighting stage- its simply incapable of handling its passenger numbers. You shouldn't have to be at the airport at 4AM for an 8AM flight- but thats the way it is.

I do feel sorry for Shannon's predicament, but do feel that instead of the usual wallowing in a "Poor us" sentiment- why not take the bull by the horns and use it as an opportunity to get out from under the government's apron strings and really invent itself into a viable freestanding operation. It does have the potential to be a viable commercial operation- whether this means it has to put greater emphasis on military traffic (as it already controls the western airspace approaches to Europe anyway- its not too big a swing for the airport to develope in other directions).

This little country of ours is in one hell of a mess, and no-one is answerable to the people.

mike65

Ha! Its amazing what a small crisis can do, suddenly Shannon reckon they can squeeze 4 million euro per year of savings out of thier operations.

Mike.

fly_agaric

NewDubliner wrote:

Well, everyone's been calling for public-sector privitisation and for public-sector outfits to behave more like the provate sector.

Sometimes, if you're unlucky, you get what you wish for.

So true. I wonder do any of the govt./semi-state bad private sector good people (IBEC?) complaining about this see their own hypocrisy?
Perhaps they should really just stfu and take their lumps from the invisible hand.:p [-which doesn't care about lesser objectives like balanced development or any of that other "do goody good bullshít!"]

dowlingm wrote:

smccarrick - antoin is in his own little world, circa 1960. Don't disturb him with stuff like EU competition law.

I thought that the govt. actually could have invested in Aer Lingus or loaned it money to enable it to purchase new aircraft (rather than privatising it) because it was profitable + a going concern at the time.
Govt's bailing out loss-making airlines was forbidden by the EU.
Am I wrong abut this??

parsi

Patrickof wrote:

I don't remember Arnotts putting up their prices to fund the refurbishment of their store a few years back.

They might have. The fact is that unlike the airports they don't have to publicly apply for a price increase - they can just add it on without anyone being much the wiser...

dowlingm

fly_agaric - you are I'm afraid. Even when profitable governments are not allowed to preferentially treat state airlines compared with private sector ones. There are still strokes pulled but not billions like there used to be.

ircoha

mike65 wrote:

Ha! Its amazing what a small crisis can do, suddenly Shannon reckon they can squeeze 4 million euro per year of savings out of thier operations.

Mike.

It is wonderful to see them scurry around like lemmings. By the time they get it sorted global warming will have the airfield flooded anyway so it will be back to

which is what they are at now anyway

Slice

Another article in the SBP today about it:

http://www.sbpost.ie/post/pages/p/story.aspx-qqqt=NEWS-qqqs=news-qqqid=25845-qqqx=1.asp

This is the most interesting quote from the topic:

Aer Lingus is expected to benefit from lower costs associated with more favourable work practices at its new Belfast base. Among the cost advantages are the ability to outsource ground operations, such as check-in facilities, to third party providers as well as a requirement for fewer staff due to more flexible arrangements regarding holiday entitlements.

Shannon have obviously priced themselve out of the service and now unions are saying they will push for similar conditions for staff in Belfast instead of facing up to the reality that it's these very conditions that caused IE to move away from Shannon in the first place...

Red Alert

There's an interesting paradox in Aer Lingus - it's private but the moaners and groaners in Shannon would prefer it to act like it wasn't so, as would many of its staff. Yet I suspect a lot of them had FF as number one on their ballot paper last June. Then the government get cold feet when Mick O'Leary offers to lend a helping hand.

jrar

Conspiracy theory #4783

In the run-up to getting final agreement on power sharing in the North, Bertie's mob promise Tony Blair et al a number of carrots. On the transport front, lots of co-operation on crossborder routes plus an announcement to part-fund further capital projects in this area. Bertie also promises big Ian to have Aer Lingus reflect a new all-island approach and provide services from Belfast to the "mainland". Bertie's mob use minority share-holding plus political influence to get move announced, timed to co-incide with Bank Holiday, the start of the silly season in the media, and with all the cabinet ministers safely ensconced in their holiday boltholes.

Pesky Shannonsiders start to kick up fuss - Dempsey eventually told to get out there, defuse the situation, and to tell them to hush up and stop giving radio interviews left, right, and centre. O'Dea censured for making moronic comments as per usual.

AlekSmart

Slice wrote:

Another article in the SBP today about it:

http://www.sbpost.ie/post/pages/p/story.aspx-qqqt=NEWS-qqqs=news-qqqid=25845-qqqx=1.asp

This is the most interesting quote from the topic:


Shannon have obviously priced themselve out of the service and now unions are saying they will push for similar conditions for staff in Belfast instead of facing up to the reality that it's these very conditions that caused IE to move away from Shannon in the first place...

This cuts to the chase I feel and has the capacity to pulsate out far beyond the Airline Industry.
Does anybody have the current State of Play concerning the UK Government`s position on the "Social Charter" aspects of the various EU Treaty`s we all rushed out to embrace in recent times.

I am particularly interested in the differences in Irish and UK practices regarding the "Working Time Directives" and several other well meaning but hugely expensive "entitlements" other EU workplace laws.

Given that the Land Frontier remains a legal border,perhaps it should be remembered that the Northern Ireland Pillar Boxes remain Red ...?

BostonB

The other angle is that it could be the start of a new cost cutting strategy at Aer Lingus internally. Basically copying The Ryan Air model. Fire and move (literally) to keep costs down, externally of course, but also internally. It will put pressure on the unions internally. Theres been some noises in that direction in the press of late. Shannon could be just unlucky to be an easy target as AL management start making moves against internal staff costs. Ryan Air use these tactics to start basing staff out of Ireland, and bringing new staff at lower cost.

FlutterinBantam

I think thats the plan BB.
No way the unions will"back down" and accept lower costs on a partnership basis.As I have stated many times on these forums Ei need to cut their cost base,and rejig work practices,to remain profitable in low cost carrier mode. The unions wont agree,this is one way to force some action from the entrenched ones.

jimmycrackcorm

the Shannon outcry is ridiculous when you take into account that other parts of the country make a noise out of how useful the subsidised access is to regional airports.

If I want to fly to a major city in the U.S. it will usually involve a changeover and for a lesser known destination it will mean more than one so what's the big deal over someone flying into dublin and then a changeover to shannon.

Serves shannon right imho for having us put up with the stopover for so long, a legacy way of thinking from the times that aircraft could barely fly that distance over the Atlantic.

antoinolachtnai

The big deal is that

- it is no longer possible to get up in the morning, go to the Airport, spend the day in London (particularly West London) and be back for dinner (or 'tea' as they say in the West). A two day trip becomes necessary.

- there is no longer direct access to all the connections that are available from London Heathrow

Of course there is a broader problem. As a nation, we are not taking regional development seriously (and that includes the people in the regions).

Slice

Th

e big deal is that

- it is no longer possible to get up in the morning, go to the Airport, spend the day in London (particularly West London) and be back for dinner (or 'tea' as they say in the West). A two day trip becomes necessary.

London is still served by Shannon to two other airports, and one of them (Gatwick) happens to be the second busiest airport in Britain.

Red Alert

Would the very well run Gatwick Express be too much for the pampered people of shannon? Honestly, they expect barefaced special treatment and then wonder why nobody else really cares about them!

lostinsuperfunk

Yes, Gatwick has much better rail connections than Heathrow, you can easily get to London, the south coast, Surrey and even Reading from there.
The only loss with Heathrow is the possibility of making onward flight connections, but if Air France step into the fray with a Paris-CDG service I think SNN would be even better off than it is now with the Heathrow service.

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2007/0813/breaking8.htm

OTK

antoinolachtnai wrote:

The big deal is that

- it is no longer possible to get up in the morning, go to the Airport, spend the day in London (particularly West London) and be back for dinner (or 'tea' as they say in the West). A two day trip becomes necessary.

There is a morning flight from ryanair arriving at 8:00 in Stansted. There are flights home in the afternoon and evening from Gatwick and Stansted.

Of course there is a broader problem. As a nation, we are not taking regional development seriously (and that includes the people in the regions).

Would you consider Northern Ireland part of the 'Irish Nation'. We still issue passports to anyone from NI and I would hazard that a majority of NI residents consider themselves 'Irish', even those who also consider themselves British. Belfast is a deprived area of this island.

I have been told that the decision was made solely on cost grounds. Part of the high costs of operating from Shannon were due to the unco-operative approach of the unions. EI's ground staff numbers have already been seriously reduced in recent years as they have lost business they used to provide to other airlines. This should have been a profit centre for Aer Lingus but it appears that the worker's shop stewards have negotiated their way to the dole queue.

popebenny16

Empty vessels make the most noises, as my mother used to say.

I heard one Clare politician mentioning on Saturday morning that Limerick, Clare, Galway and North Tipp would be very adversely affected by this.

Really. I work in Nenagh and I can tell you that it's a big non story - apart from the professional whingers who take take take (see the WRC). Why? Well, maybe not that many people actually depend upon it in the way this has been exaggerated.

Yes, there is a tradition of "what we have - we hold" - well, sorry lads, shows over. I laugh at the fact that it appears that some companies in the private sector want another one (AL) to take it hit on their behalf.

So, a hotel has put on hold its great plans to expand. Nothing to do with the gross costs of living in this country, nothing to do with the fact that we've become such a nasty shower that failte Ireland has to spend money on a billboard campaign telling us to be nice to tourists? There are many reasons why a hotel may not expand, AL is a cheap and easy way of escaping the blame.

Here's the interesting bit. All of a sudden Shannon releases the news that AL can save €4million (with some part of that being apparently on the AL side- how would Shannon know that?) Well, AL must be kicking themselves so because that implies that Shannon has been ripping them off, and also implies that other airlines using Shannon are being likewise ripped off.

I think that the Shannon Management may have let a cat out of the bag with their panic stricken press conference last Friday. I'm sure that Ryanair and the likes may have some questions as to how such savings can suddenly appear.

Are there alternatives? Well, I'm sure that Cork will now buy loads of advertising in the regional papers and point out that they can get you there. I'm sure all the other carriers into London from Shannon will do likewise.

Meanwhile, Shannon will have to get its act together. They should now get on with attracting KLM and point out that Amsterdam is a better alternative to Heathrow. They have to do something that they have never had to do before - justify their existence. And, sorry lads, that means bringing in the cold hard cash to run the place - not rely on political favours and priests in pulpits saying that a private company has a "moral obligation" to provide a service to the West of Ireland. Those priests may be interested to hear that no matter what the position of the meek may be in the afterlife, in this life they go to the wall.

jrar

popebenny16 wrote:

And, sorry lads, that means bringing in the cold hard cash to run the place - not rely on political favours and priests in pulpits saying that a private company has a "moral obligation" to provide a service to the West of Ireland. Those priests may be interested to hear that no matter what the position of the meek may be in the afterlife, in this life they go to the wall.

Benny, will you ever issue an edict or papal bull to your first line mgmt. to tell them to stick to the fire and brimstone stuff, but to leave the social diatribes to others who actually live in the real world..................ta

antoinolachtnai

OTK wrote:

There is a morning flight from ryanair arriving at 8:00 in Stansted. There are flights home in the afternoon and evening from Gatwick and Stansted.

Sure, that's fair comment. But still, it isn't convenient for a large part of London. Ryanair isn't a business airline either, and doesn't claim to be.

Would you consider Northern Ireland part of the 'Irish Nation'. We still issue passports to anyone from NI and I would hazard that a majority of NI residents consider themselves 'Irish', even those who also consider themselves British. Belfast is a deprived area of this island.

I have been told that the decision was made solely on cost grounds. Part of the high costs of operating from Shannon were due to the unco-operative approach of the unions. EI's ground staff numbers have already been seriously reduced in recent years as they have lost business they used to provide to other airlines. This should have been a profit centre for Aer Lingus but it appears that the worker's shop stewards have negotiated their way to the dole queue.

The west as a region has far less infrastructure than Belfast.

I fully agree that the local players down in Shannon have a lot to answer for in this.

bill_ashmount

I see on the Irish Examiner that AL are now looking to pull flights from Cork:

"AER LINGUS last night dramatically axed a plan to cancel Cork’s early-morning flight to London Heathrow and run the service from Belfast instead."


They backed down. I assume they are just waiting for the noise to die down from the Shannon move before axing cork.....

FlutterinBantam

jrar wrote:

Benny, will you ever issue an edict or papal bull to your first line mgmt. to tell them to stick to the fire and brimstone stuff, but to leave the social diatribes to others who actually live in the real world..................ta

I think Benny just issued a papal bull there jrar... I would call it... "Maximus Dose di Realitus" !!

mike65

Aer Lingus have not cancelled anything twas a software glitch ("oh thats what they say now!" ).

Mike.

dowlingm

*cought* bullsh!t *cough*

lostinsuperfunk - interested to know why you think CDG a better outcome than LHR - are we talking about services or about ease of transfer?

BostonB

I think the route profitability is a smokescreen. Its about about breaking the pay and terms and conditions throughout the company. They've been trying to do that for years. Hence the IFALPA recruitment ban for Belfast based positions.

McSpud

This the wake up call Shannon Airport Management & Staff should have received 5 years ago. The stopover is dead & the easy gravy train that accompanied it is to go too. Shannon has a runway that can support long distance flights & probably 1m population catchment area so why no new destinations & airlines? Most of the country would prefer to fly from Shannon than Dublin given a choice.

The people in the Mid-West deserve what they get as they voted for FF. Sure only 4 1/2 years to the next General Election

Shannon Airport gave 100k redundancy to catering staff to more to private operator a few months ago. Sure even the staff that stayed with the Airport for a 16k payout. Why should the rest of us continue to subsidise such waste.

AL are clearly setting up a hub at Belfast so they will pay people via AL UK company with pay & conditions that comes with that. If they setup a hub in Spain they will employee people on Spanish conditions & pay.

Its difficult to describe how stupid Willie O'Dea is. :eek:

Zoney

McSpud wrote:

The people in the Mid-West deserve what they get as they voted for FF. Sure only 4 1/2 years to the next General Election

People in Limerick East voted not for FF, but for Willie O'Dea. He's the Bertie of Limerick.

Unless Willie puts up a good enough show, the penny will drop with the voters that however much they like him, a vote for him was/is a vote for Fianna Fáil's PD-esque policies, which include abandoning Shannon, the Midwest, and pretty much the entire country, to market forces.

Still, at least there aren't any actual PDs elected in Limerick now.

dermo88

I like the sensationalism, but the whole mezzogiorno assistance package of give the west more money is a proven failure, and the sooner that the work of the spud blight is finished, the sooner that the rest of the country that works can succeed.

Good luck to it, you can keep it, to hell or to Connaught, and I'm picking hell.

markpb

McSpud wrote:

Its difficult to describe how stupid Willie O'Dea is.
:eek:

I think you over-estimate the Irish voters and under-estimate our politicians. I can guarantee you there are people in the Shannon area right now thinking the Moustache is the only politician standing up for them and will happily vote for him again because of it. If he wins, he's "a great man for the people" and if he loses "well at least he tried, them people up in Dublin don't care about us".

Red Alert

Just thinking out loud here, but imagine had the irish government held the Heathrow slots as a separate company (maybe Irish Landings PLC) or similar, then they could offer them to whoever it believed should have them - such as Ryanair, Aer Lingus or Aer Arann.

markpb

Red Alert wrote:

Just thinking out loud here, but imagine had the irish government held the Heathrow slots as a separate company (maybe Irish Landings PLC) or similar, then they could offer them to whoever it believed should have them - such as Ryanair, Aer Lingus or Aer Arann.

Would have been a much better way of doing it but:

- Knowing our government they'd have made a cack-handed mess of it, screwing over passengers and airlines, delaying everything when they decide to commission another consultants report, defer making a decision until after the summer holidays and probably end up being taken to court by the EU for doing it improperly the whole time.

- The local lobby groups would be out in force, Shannon wanting all the slots for "regional development", Knock wanting them for "west aid" and no-one wanting Dublin to have them.

- Aer Lingus wouldn't have sold for half as much if it lost its most valuable assets and wasn't guaranteed to be able to rent them back from the government.

lostinsuperfunk

interested to know why you think CDG a better outcome than LHR - are we talking about services or about ease of transfer?

I've found CDG easier to negotiate than LHR for transfers. I'd imagine the choice of European routes from LHR and CDG is similar but I never fly long haul so I don't know how they compare on that. Also, there are good rail connections from CDG. Maybe Amsterdam would be even better?

I agree with McSpud, Willie O'Dea is exceptional, even by the standards of Irish politicians. It's our fault for electing people like him though.

RedAlert's idea is interesting. Would a foreign EU government be allowed to control the use of Heathrow slots? BAA mightn't like it, but maybe there would be nothing they could do about it.

dowlingm

I also wondered about that before - they could have put the govt jets and some civil SAR helicopters on the AOC - but as markpb said the flotation was probably the reason.

bill_ashmount

Belarus airline suspends winter service into Shannon.

Story on breakingnews.ie

Traffic

From www.shannonairport.com

European Hub Airport Incentive
Shannon Airport has specifically identified airline services to the key European Hub airports of London-Heathrow (LHR), Paris (CDG), Amsterdam (AMS) and Frankfurt Main (FRA) as being of key strategic importance to its ongoing development.

In this regard an airline that initiates a service schedule that maximises the connecting opportunities for business and tourism development, in accordance with the scheme criteria, will benefit from reduced airport charges over a five-year period.

http://www.shannonairport.com/documents/EuropeanHubAirportIncentiveScheme2008.pdf