Am I missing something in the whole Heinze transfer saga....

Hobart

PHB wrote:

In all fairness you're not privy to the Heinze situation either.

I never actually claimed i was. I'm commenting on what has been confirmed by Manu officials and what is actually in the public domain.

PHB wrote:

You have claimed that EU law doesn't allow the club to have a say in where the player can go, and hence why United cannot say Heinze cannot go to a domestic rival.
Anelka has a clause which states that a player can only leave if a top 4 club comes in for them, i.e. cannot leave for any of their domestic rivals (albeit for UEFA)

I have already pointed out that while restrictive practicies are illegal under EU (and hence UK) law, it does not necessarily follow that un-restrictive practices are applauded.

PHB wrote:

It is the exact same situation, yet it is allowed..

You are trying to make a mahogany table out of plywood. Your logic is flawed tbh. It is not the "exact same situation" as you put it. In fact the situations could not be more different.

PHB wrote:

Perhaps this would suggest that the EU law you seem to be putting so much faith in doesn't apply in football to the extent you think. Or maybe, and more probably, you have misinterpreted the law

I doubt it tbh, but lets see how the situation pans out.

PHB

I have already pointed out that while restrictive practicies are illegal under EU (and hence UK) law, it does not necessarily follow that un-restrictive practices are applauded.

In case you don't realise this, when Bolton have a clause that says Anelka can be bought by a club in the CL,
it also means,
Anelka cannot be bought any club not in the CL.

That is a 'restrictive clause' as you have called it.

Would United be ok if the clause stated Heinze can be bought by any club not in the CL? That would be 'un-restrictive'

They are both 'restrictive' clauses, there is literally no difference.

Thanx 4 The Fish

MrPillowTalk wrote:

imply racism (which is rich from Liverpool fans anyhow).

Could you explain that comment please Pillow ?

Mitch Connor

millersangel wrote:

Not really a similar example.
A better one would be if a shop advertised something for £500 and then when the person tried to buy it, they refused to sell it to him because of his skin colour or something.

another example would be oputting your house on the market at 400k. It doesn't mean you HAVE to sell it for 400k, or to the person that offers 400k first - right of refusal still exists.

Mr Alan

PHB: i think we really are singing off different hymn sheets here. I understand that football contracts are full of these stipulations and clauses.
My point is, as far as we are aware, they go against EU law, making them unenforcable.
I understand 100% that they are in existence, no one is arguing with that.
My point is that, when someone does challenge these clauses in a court, they will win (if they do go against EU law).Then a precedent will be set.

My point is simply, will Heinze be the one to challenge them?

Tauren: Your point is totally different. As your house has no rights, whereas a person (heinze) - does.

Mr Pillowtalk: Still awaiting clarification of what you meant by that?

PHB

millersangel wrote:

PHB: i think we really are singing off different hymn sheets here. I understand that football contracts are full of these stipulations and clauses.
My point is, as far as we are aware, they go against EU law, making them unenforcable.
I understand 100% that they are in existence, no one is arguing with that.
My point is that, when someone does challenge these clauses in a court, they will win (if they do go against EU law).Then a precedent will be set.

My point is simply, will Heinze be the one to challenge them?

Indeed, that's my point too. The PL will not rule the Heinze can leave because of EU Law concerns.

I would however suggest that it's not 100% sure that they go against EU law, considering those sort of top 4 get out clauses are relatively common.

Mitch Connor

millersangel wrote:

PHB: i think we really are singing off different hymn sheets here. I understand that football contracts are full of these stipulations and clauses.
My point is, as far as we are aware, they go against EU law, making them unenforcable.
I understand 100% that they are in existence, no one is arguing with that.
My point is that, when someone does challenge these clauses in a court, they will win (if they do go against EU law).Then a precedent will be set.

My point is simply, will Heinze be the one to challenge them?

Tauren: Your point is totally different. As your house has no rights, whereas a person (heinze) - does.

Mr Pillowtalk: Still awaiting clarification of what you meant by that?

But United 'own' Heinze - and can decide who they want to accept bids from, unless what he has is a release fee clause - which I don't believe it is.

Mr Alan

Gettin a sore head going over this with you two Neville loving mancs!

astrofool

Well, arguing points of law on a soccer forum is rather silly as it's all bar stool lawyers

As an aside, football isn't counted as a business in the normal sense, so in fact does have different restrictions, although alot of these have been challenged in recent years, with some cases winning and others losing. In business, EVERYONE can give one months notice and go and join another company, with a 6 month to 1 year restriction on competing in the same market, so if footballers were treated the same under EU law, then the transfer market would collapse overnight.

MrPillowTalk

In millersangels previous post that I quoted Utd not selling Heinze to Liverpool was compared to not selling to someone based on the colour of their skin, quite obviously a ridiculous analogy and one that I felt was strange considering previous incidents involving certain Liverpool fans e.g. Barnes debut for the club.

Obviously I am not implying that Liverpool fans are rascists, which appears to be what millersangel thought, only that their have been some highly publicised rascist incidents involving some pool fans in the past. And as such implying that the clubs actions are akin to racism is ridiculous.

Mr Alan

In my post, wat i was getting at was - the previous example of a price being quoted wrongly was nowhere the same situation as this current situation with Heinze.
Utd told Heinze he was for sale for a certain amount.
Then when a club came in for a bid with that amount.
They refused to sell because of who that club was.

Probaby not wise bringing race into this, but it was just the only in any way similar example i could think of.
(i am in no way calling Utd racist)

You then took that opportunity to have a pop at Liverpool fans for being racist. Simple as. Pretty sure i've never called anyone on here a troll, but you can be my first. Definate troll.

MrPillowTalk

millersangel wrote:

In my post, wat i was getting at was - the previous example of a price being quoted wrongly was nowhere the same situation as this current situation with Heinze.
Utd told Heinze he was for sale for a certain amount.
Then when a club came in for a bid with that amount.
They refused to sell because of who that club was.

Probaby not wise bringing race into this, but it was just the only in any way similar example i could think of.
(i am in no way calling Utd racist)

You then took that opportunity to have a pop at Liverpool fans for being racist. Simple as. Pretty sure i've never called anyone on here a troll, but you can be my first. Definate troll.

I quite clearly stated I wasnt calling pool fans racists in the vast majority, however would you not call throwing bannanas at black players racist?

Im not trolling Im sorry I even got into it but it was a response to your first post which contained a quite ridiculous analogy.

Mr Alan

sorry but you quite clearly, in your OP you were just having a pop at liverpool fans. Either that is your own (asolutely ridiculous) belief, or you were just saying it to annoy people. Either way, you were wrong in what you said.

You backtracked with your second post. But I'd advise you to read your OP and try to defend it as anything other than trollish behaviour.

Leave it at that. Don't want this to go on and on.

~Rebel~

Interesting input from Rafa here;

BENITEZ `CONFIDENT` OF HEINZE DEAL
Posted 09/08/07 15:54
EmailPrintSave


Liverpool boss Rafael Benitez has expressed his confidence in the outcome of his attempts to sign Gabriel Heinze from Manchester United.

Red Devils boss Sir Alex Ferguson insists that he will not sell the full-back to Liverpool under any circumstances, even if they have met United's valuation.

Heinze has called in his lawyers and, after a meeting with Ferguson, will now have the case heard by a Premier League commission later this month.

Benitez said: "The situation with Heinze is very clear and I am confident in the outcome. I am not looking for any other left-back."

http://www.football365.com/story/0,17033,8652_2651569,00.html

Devious

Am I right in thinking that Heinze's brother is his agent? Would this then mean that his brother would be entitled to some slice of the transfer fee if it were to go ahead? This whole deal reeks of agent interference (and Heinze seems quite happy to go along with it), why else would he want to move a few miles down the road to be in pretty much the same position he is in at United? As well as ensuring the eternal hatred of United fans? Its really just an exercise in greed on Heinze's part.

Mr Alan

wouldn't agree with that at all. he will play far more at Liverpool than he would with Utd (as both the left sided defender in a 3-5-2 formation, left sided in 4-4-2 and cover for CB in 4-4-2 also).

Think it would probably be more greedy to stay at Utd and pick up his pay cheque week in week out when they obviously feel (stupidly IMO) he is surplus to requirements there.

---

Rafa certainly seems confident that a deal will be done. Which is good news. If we get good cover for CB before the close of the window i'll be much more confident going into it.

PHB

I think some United fans are taking a high road on this for no reason, United told him he could leave, he's leaving, sounds fair. The only issue is where he goes to.

I think he'll be much better at Liverpool as the problems in his style of play won't be as visible in a team that doesn't get hit on the counter much.

Both Fergie and Rafa are supremely confident, somebody is lying to one of the managers.

Mitch Connor

PHB wrote:

I think some United fans are taking a high road on this for no reason, United told him he could leave, he's leaving, sounds fair. The only issue is where he goes to.

I think he'll be much better at Liverpool as the problems in his style of play won't be as visible in a team that doesn't get hit on the counter much.

Both Fergie and Rafa are supremely confident, somebody is lying to one of the managers.

it is not no reason, it is LIVERPOOL! Do you reckon Liverpool would sell a fan favourite to us?

As you say, the problems Heinze has, which are exposed by the way Untied play, would not be exposed by the way liverpool play - so he would strengthen their team. Much as it annoys me to say it, they have to be seen as a title rival, so even if you forget all the hatered and cans of crap, and vandalizing of Old Trafford, and the peeing on United supporters, why would we be ok with selling a player to improve a title rival.

RE*AC*TOR

Right - so far in this thread about a possible transfer we have had comments about Liverpool having racist fans (20 years ago), and about incidences involving a minority of fans. Yet all the while it appears all Manyoo fans are angels.. its not like they sing songs about Hillsborough and make gestures mimicking being crushed against barriers. If you were at OT last season you would have seen that.

People are dickheads. All societies and most large groups contain a proportion of them. The fact that some people latch on to certain incidences to portray one group in a particular light is pathetic.

As for the topic at hand, whether Rafa believes it is clear cut or not, he will say it is. Saying he is unsure will not help his cause.

I think going through the arbitration will spare Ferguson any backlash from the fans over the sale - he can say it was out of his hands. I certainly can't imagine him wanting to keep Heinze after this.

Mitch Connor

RE*AC*TOR wrote:

Right - so far in this thread about a possible transfer we have had comments about Liverpool having racist fans (20 years ago), and about incidences involving a minority of fans. Yet all the while it appears all Manyoo fans are angels.. its not like they sing songs about Hillsborough and make gestures mimicking being crushed against barriers. If you were at OT last season you would have seen that.

People are dickheads. All societies and most large groups contain a proportion of them. The fact that some people latch on to certain incidences to portray one group in a particular light is pathetic.

As for the topic at hand, whether Rafa believes it is clear cut or not, he will say it is. Saying he is unsure will not help his cause.

I think going through the arbitration will spare Ferguson any backlash from the fans over the sale - he can say it was out of his hands. I certainly can't imagine him wanting to keep Heinze after this.

1. I didn't say it was all liverpool fans - i merely stated events that happened.
2. In a thread about a transfer between man United and Liverpool, i don't think stating some of the reasons why some United fans hate liverpool is off topic - it is relevant to why we would not like to see a fan favourite go there.
3. Do United not have to agree to accept the arbitration results for it to be of any use? I'm sure Joorabchian had the ability to say he didn't care what they said.

Mr Alan

Tauren wrote:

1. I didn't say it was all liverpool fans - i merely stated events that happened.
2. In a thread about a transfer between man United and Liverpool, i don't think stating some of the reasons why some United fans hate liverpool is off topic - it is relevant to why we would not like to see a fan favourite go there.
3. Do United not have to agree to accept the arbitration results for it to be of any use? I'm sure Joorabchian had the ability to say he didn't care what they said.

1. You stated events that happened that paint Liverpool fans in an awful light. These events were carried out by an absolute MINORITY.

2. Did these fans who urinated and threw **** at Utd fans do this for no reason? No they did it because of the constant appalling nature of the behaviour of a MASSIVE number of Utd fans week in, week out, singing about Hillsborough etc. Wat the Liverpool fans did was awful and wrong, but these acts were carried out by groups of maybe wat 10 people?! Compare that to a full Old Trafford singing about the deaths of 96 innocent people.

3. Not sure

Ps. You would think after Utd nearly had a Hillsborough style incident in Lille that they would develop any sort of decency? No - singing about it again the next weekend

Mitch Connor

millersangel wrote:

1. You stated events that happened that paint Liverpool fans in an awful light. These events were carried out by an absolute MINORITY.

2. Did these fans who urinated and threw **** at Utd fans do this for no reason? No they did it because of the constant appalling nature of the behaviour of a MASSIVE number of Utd fans week in, week out, singing about Hillsborough etc. Wat the Liverpool fans did was awful and wrong, but these acts were carried out by groups of maybe wat 10 people?! Compare that to a full Old Trafford singing about the deaths of 96 innocent people.

3. Not sure

Ps. You would think after Utd nearly had a Hillsborough style incident in Lille that they would develop any sort of decency? No - singing about it again the next weekend

Well why would we hate liverpool for them being nice to us? I hate Liverpool because of the horrible things some of the fans have done (and their god damn 5 euro cups....), I was pointing out things that have created the hatred between the two (fans/clubs) so they were correct in contrast.

If you were saying you had a hatred of united, i wouldn't expect you to say it was because we observed a minutes silence for your fallen, or something nice we have done, i'd expect you to point to the horrible things that can be attributed to the club/fans.

Ps. You fans were lined up alongside the United fans leaving anfield, beside the hillsborough statue singing songs about Munich but oh, yeah....

Mr Alan

How long ago was that and how many?

(not denying it happened, just curious)

Mitch Connor

millersangel wrote:

How long ago was that and how many?

Last season, and the season before, hundreds apparently.

Of course, I was not there, but many of my friends were, and were subjected to it.

Thanx 4 The Fish

Keep it calm guys, this has very little to do with the Heinze transfer.

Mr Alan

If that happened, its appalling.
But i'd take it with a pinch of salt tbh, might have been a few, but hundreds?! Be very suprised
not doubting there is a minority that would behave that way, but to be honest if you visit any Liverpool fansite, i think you'll find that kind of behaviour is looked down upon in a big way-even by the most hardcore of hardcore, as is signing about United/Chelsea at any time apart from when we're playing eachother. Unlike the likes of red issue - which is probably the most hate filled site i have ever seen.

Mr Alan

Cool Mr Fish, all very calm here

Tauren, we'll just leave it at both clubs have bad elements within their support. (:) but Utds are worse :P) lol

Mitch Connor

millersangel wrote:

If that happened, its appalling.
But i'd take it with a pinch of salt tbh, might have been a few, but hundreds?! Be very suprised
not doubting there is a minority that would behave that way, but to be honest if you visit any Liverpool fansite, i think you'll find that kind of behaviour is looked down upon in a big way-even by the most hardcore of hardcore, as is signing about United/Chelsea at any time apart from when we're playing eachother. Unlike the likes of red issue - which is probably the most hate filled site i have ever seen.

Never actually been on Red Issue - i tried to register for it a long time ago and was denied or something. Dunno.

Anyway, heard they don't like the non-locals hanging around there anyway.

besty

Well, back on topic, Heinze's number 4 has been taken off him and given to Hargreaves. Despite SAF's comments that he does have a future at Old Trafford, this is ominous. Incidentally, he was given no. 14 so not completely frozen out yet.

Mr Alan

Think he definately will be leaving, even if not to Liverpool. But i think at this point, he will probably end up at Liverpool.

According to the mirror, he has been advised to stay away from Old Trafford at the weekend for his own safety!

zing

Tauren wrote:

Last season, and the season before, hundreds apparently.

Of course, I was not there, but many of my friends were, and were subjected to it.

I was at Anfield last March for the LFC V. Utd games and was by the Hillsborough memorial both before and after the game (as I'd agreed to meet up with someone there) and while there was some jeering and some of the usual abuse being thrown back and forth between both sets of supporters I didn't witness anything like references to Hillsborough or Munich or anything particularly nasty between the sets of supporters. Didn't hang around there too long after the game but again saw the Utd supporters as they were being escorted toward Lime St station and while they were signing away there was no abuse. Now there was a naturally a large police presence around them at all stages but that's my first hand account of what happened. I can't speak for the season before.

One thing that does stand out with me from that day was the large round of applause for Bobby Charlton as he entered the stadium.

Iago

Heinze has a contract with United, the letter isn't an addendum to that contract and hasn't been given to the PL. As such the PL will have to rule that he sees out his contract or signals an intention to buyout his contract at the end of the season.

for those that think any different just like at the Dyer fiasco with West Ham.

clubs agree a deal
player agrees terms
player passes medical
player is about to sign

Newcastle decide they want an extra £2M, West Ham refuse to pay the extra

Dyer is back at Newcastle and playing for them at the weekend. He doesn't want to be there, Allardyce would be happier if he was gone but he doesn't have a choice. I think that would be far more clearcut than the Heinze saga and yet nobody's screaming about it. Why? Because Dyer and West Ham both know it would do no good.

RE*AC*TOR

Liverpool have absolutely nothing to lose in this scenario. If it is to be believed that there are no other options for Heinze - stay with Utd or go to Liverpool, then either Liverpool get a new player, or Utd are stuck with a player who doesn't want to be there - potentially causing dressing room tension etc.

PHB

Tauren wrote:

it is not no reason, it is LIVERPOOL! Do you reckon Liverpool would sell a fan favourite to us?

I mean in terms of namecalling towards Heinze. United gave him permission to leave, he isn't exactly some evil mastermind, we said we didn't need him.

marius

RE*AC*TOR wrote:

Liverpool have absolutely nothing to lose in this scenario. If it is to be believed that there are no other options for Heinze - stay with Utd or go to Liverpool, then either Liverpool get a new player, or Utd are stuck with a player who doesn't want to be there - potentially causing dressing room tension etc.

Well....in scenario 2 Liverpool fail to sign a left back.....which would be something to lose no? Rafa has already said he has no one else lined up.....(i think:D )

RE*AC*TOR

marius wrote:

Well....in scenario 2 Liverpool fail to sign a left back.....which would be something to lose no? Rafa has already said he has no one else lined up.....(i think:D )

It would be something not gained - instead of something lost.

Mr Alan

Be more worried about not signing him as cover for CB, at the moment we have Riise, Aurelio, Insua and Arbeloa who can all play LB

~Rebel~

marius wrote:

Well....in scenario 2 Liverpool fail to sign a left back.....which would be something to lose no? Rafa has already said he has no one else lined up.....(i think:D )

He said they wouldnt be looking at another LeftBack. The way that he specifically said Left Back leads me to believe he'll go for a CB. Id imagine Heinze is handier if we can get him as he does both.

Hobart

~Rebel~ wrote:

He said they wouldnt be looking at another LeftBack. The way that he specifically said Left Back leads me to believe he'll go for a CB. Id imagine Heinze is handier if we can get him as he does both.

Exactly, it's the potential for cover that Heinze could provide he was talking about.

Mitch Connor

But Heinze is pretty much crap as a CB - just look at him playing for us there at the end of last season. Whatever qualities he has at left back - his poor positioning and gung-ho style are not what you want at CB. Himself and Carragher at CB would be a disaster as both would be rushing to the ball leaving gaps in behind - he'd need a sweeper beside him.

Peyton Manning

Well, im not sure if Heinze was a crap CB as he never played there for us before his injury last season so those poor performances could have been from the injury. Either way, hes not what you want as a centre back unless he has improved his fitness - which he can, and unless he improves his decision making - which I dont think he can. At left back, he can get away with those sorts of things but after such a long transfer saga, he cant get away with them at CB for Liverpool.

Hobart

Tauren wrote:

But Heinze is pretty much crap as a CB - just look at him playing for us there at the end of last season. Whatever qualities he has at left back - his poor positioning and gung-ho style are not what you want at CB. Himself and Carragher at CB would be a disaster as both would be rushing to the ball leaving gaps in behind - he'd need a sweeper beside him.

I'm not an avid follower of ManU,. but I don't remember him being any disaster at CB. Do you have any links to support this?

[edit]Actually I have had a quick look, and I could be missing something, but I don't see him in any CB position, where ManU lost a game last season???? Again, I could be missing something. [/edit]

zokrez

Is there something in the rule book that would prevent United selling him to say Portsmouth for the asking price and Liverpool buying him from Portsmouth in January ?

The Rooster

Its clear that the side letter does carry legal weight - otherwise there'd be no need to talk about a Top 4 restriction. Also, more importantly, United want the letter to be legally binding - otherwise no player will ever trust their word again.

United's lawyers fooked up royally when they didnt put in the letter that it only applied to foreign clubs. I believe they were pretty certain he'd be going abroad, and never in their wildest dreams would they have imagined him going to Liverpool.

When Liverpool's interest surfaced, United started to scramble and firefight, and came up with the idea of calling the agent to "clarify" the letter and recording the conversation. There is no way in hell this recorded conversation occurred prior to United learning of Liverpool's interest. Whether this clarification carries the same legal weight as the letter is something none of us know and I think its 50/50 which way it'll go.

The Muppet

Hobart wrote:

Exactly, it's the potential for cover that Heinze could provide he was talking about.

Cover ? He's not prepared to act as cover, thats the reason he wants to leave United.

I find the whole saga quite funny TBH, Liverpool squabbling over a player that is no longer good enough to be automatice first choice at United.

Personally I'd sell him to liverpool if I were fergie and then let Ronaldo loose on him when we face them, on last seasons form he'd fleece him.

Thanx 4 The Fish

Of course you'd see it that way. Fans favourite potentially leaving for another club fighting it out for the title with ye. Needs a positive slant doesn't it.

Lex Luthor

does anyone except me not think this is all just a smoke screen and Rafa doing this just to upset the Fergie bandwagon?

PHB

Heinze's problems as a CB are threefold:

Dives into tackles
Slow turn of pace
Dodgy positional sense (which is not helped by the first two)

If you are looking for a good example of that, look at both the Milan games.
However those issues are more of a problem for a team playing very attacking football like United. For Liverpool, the game will be a lot tighter and I think he'd be a great player for them.

If he goes, he is going to be first choice, otherwise why would he leave for them? Backup at United to backup at Liverpool makes no sense whatsoever.
Either Riise or Agger are going to be dropped for him, and imo, I think it'll be Agger.

Thanx 4 The Fish

TBH I doubt it would be agger, he is only getting better, already his positional sense is top drawer.

The other reason that he may be happier at Liverpool than United is that Rafa likes to change the team up dependent upon the team he is playing. So he could be the LCB in a 3-5-2 v Derby or somesuch and a LB in a chmps league game. If liverpool do well this season there will be about 70 games and while fergie does seem to like to stick to guys who are playing well when he can, Rafa likes to change things about dependent upon how he feels people are doing in training, the opposition and the like.

PHB

Still, can you imagine him going to Liverpool be to first choice cover at LB and CB? I doubt that very much, he must have been given assurances.

The reason I say Agger is not because of Agger but because he has wanted to play as a CB since he came to England, has stated it many times, and surely if he wants to move club, he would seek to play there.