Am I missing something in the whole Heinze transfer saga....

Peyton Manning

Well, im not sure if Heinze was a crap CB as he never played there for us before his injury last season so those poor performances could have been from the injury. Either way, hes not what you want as a centre back unless he has improved his fitness - which he can, and unless he improves his decision making - which I dont think he can. At left back, he can get away with those sorts of things but after such a long transfer saga, he cant get away with them at CB for Liverpool.

Hobart

Tauren wrote:

But Heinze is pretty much crap as a CB - just look at him playing for us there at the end of last season. Whatever qualities he has at left back - his poor positioning and gung-ho style are not what you want at CB. Himself and Carragher at CB would be a disaster as both would be rushing to the ball leaving gaps in behind - he'd need a sweeper beside him.

I'm not an avid follower of ManU,. but I don't remember him being any disaster at CB. Do you have any links to support this?

[edit]Actually I have had a quick look, and I could be missing something, but I don't see him in any CB position, where ManU lost a game last season???? Again, I could be missing something. [/edit]

zokrez

Is there something in the rule book that would prevent United selling him to say Portsmouth for the asking price and Liverpool buying him from Portsmouth in January ?

The Rooster

Its clear that the side letter does carry legal weight - otherwise there'd be no need to talk about a Top 4 restriction. Also, more importantly, United want the letter to be legally binding - otherwise no player will ever trust their word again.

United's lawyers fooked up royally when they didnt put in the letter that it only applied to foreign clubs. I believe they were pretty certain he'd be going abroad, and never in their wildest dreams would they have imagined him going to Liverpool.

When Liverpool's interest surfaced, United started to scramble and firefight, and came up with the idea of calling the agent to "clarify" the letter and recording the conversation. There is no way in hell this recorded conversation occurred prior to United learning of Liverpool's interest. Whether this clarification carries the same legal weight as the letter is something none of us know and I think its 50/50 which way it'll go.

The Muppet

Hobart wrote:

Exactly, it's the potential for cover that Heinze could provide he was talking about.

Cover ? He's not prepared to act as cover, thats the reason he wants to leave United.

I find the whole saga quite funny TBH, Liverpool squabbling over a player that is no longer good enough to be automatice first choice at United.

Personally I'd sell him to liverpool if I were fergie and then let Ronaldo loose on him when we face them, on last seasons form he'd fleece him.

Thanx 4 The Fish

Of course you'd see it that way. Fans favourite potentially leaving for another club fighting it out for the title with ye. Needs a positive slant doesn't it.

Lex Luthor

does anyone except me not think this is all just a smoke screen and Rafa doing this just to upset the Fergie bandwagon?

PHB

Heinze's problems as a CB are threefold:

Dives into tackles
Slow turn of pace
Dodgy positional sense (which is not helped by the first two)

If you are looking for a good example of that, look at both the Milan games.
However those issues are more of a problem for a team playing very attacking football like United. For Liverpool, the game will be a lot tighter and I think he'd be a great player for them.

If he goes, he is going to be first choice, otherwise why would he leave for them? Backup at United to backup at Liverpool makes no sense whatsoever.
Either Riise or Agger are going to be dropped for him, and imo, I think it'll be Agger.

Thanx 4 The Fish

TBH I doubt it would be agger, he is only getting better, already his positional sense is top drawer.

The other reason that he may be happier at Liverpool than United is that Rafa likes to change the team up dependent upon the team he is playing. So he could be the LCB in a 3-5-2 v Derby or somesuch and a LB in a chmps league game. If liverpool do well this season there will be about 70 games and while fergie does seem to like to stick to guys who are playing well when he can, Rafa likes to change things about dependent upon how he feels people are doing in training, the opposition and the like.

PHB

Still, can you imagine him going to Liverpool be to first choice cover at LB and CB? I doubt that very much, he must have been given assurances.

The reason I say Agger is not because of Agger but because he has wanted to play as a CB since he came to England, has stated it many times, and surely if he wants to move club, he would seek to play there.

Thanx 4 The Fish

Played at LB in the Copa though didn't he and I thought that the reason he wanted to play CB was because that was the position he was going for in the international setup. If he is happy at LB for Arg now perhaps he will not be pushing for CB so much anymore.

Lex Luthor

PHB wrote:

Either Riise or Agger are going to be dropped for him, and imo, I think it'll be Agger.

Agger is not going to be dropped.....the guy is a legend already

Mr Alan

Just read something interesting about the whole situation on another message board. not sure if its correct, but food for thought none the less - IF this tape of the recorded call Gill has does actually exist, and this case goes to court, they can't use it as it would be inadmissable unless the agent was notified that he was being recorded.

Devious

Looks like Lyon are interested in him now. Better than letting him go to the Scousers!

Jesus Wept

Devious wrote:

Looks like Lyon are interested in him now. Better than letting him go to the Scousers!

I hope if he doesn't go to Liverpool, that he stays at United, so everytime you see him you will be reminded of how he would rather play for us.

Devious

The-Rigger wrote:

I hope if he doesn't go to Liverpool, that he stays at United, so everytime you see him you will be reminded of how he would rather play for us.

Don't worry, if he does stay at United i'll see even less of him as the most action he'll see for the next year or two will be warming the bench for reserve games!

Jesus Wept

Devious wrote:

Don't worry, if he does stay at United i'll see even less of him as the most action he'll see for the next year or two will be warming the bench for reserve games!

Seems like a good way to spend £50,000+ a week.

Devious

The-Rigger wrote:

Seems like a good way to spend £50,000+ a week.

Remember though, its not about the money for Heinze; its all about his desire to play regular football! (Yea right)

Seriously though, if he did join Liverpool and found he wasn't first choice for the first couple of games, would he pull the same stunt again?

Jesus Wept

hmm, what stunt? Wanting better opportunities?

I wouldn't call it a stunt.

Devious

The-Rigger wrote:

hmm, what stunt? Wanting better opportunities?

I wouldn't call it a stunt.

Im just not convinced that his reason for wanting to move is a lack of first-team action with United; does he really believe he's going to get more games with Liverpool? Theres something else behind it; his cry of wanting to be first choice is just a convenient smokescreen, methinks.

iregk

Forgive me if this sounds somewhat lacking in advice on the situation. The truth is I don't really know anything about this transfer saga, it doesn't involve my club so up to now I couldn't care less.

My point though is, whats the problem here? Liverpool made an inquiry, United set a fee thinking they wouldn't match it, they did, United though bugger still don't want to sell him to you.

Whats the problem? One club does not want to sell a very good player to help their most hated rival. The player is under contract and as such United own him so they have the say on who they sell and don't sell him to.

Again forgive me if that all sounds too simple, i'm possibly missing lots of info on the situation but to me it smacks of Liverpool needing to get over themselves. Your rival doesn't want to sell you a player, tuff luck, get over it, move on.

Mitch Connor

even if it is all about a first team spot - all that says to me is he doesn't have the balls to fight for a place in the team. the jerk.

Mitch Connor

iregk wrote:

Forgive me if this sounds somewhat lacking in advice on the situation. The truth is I don't really know anything about this transfer saga, it doesn't involve my club so up to now I couldn't care less.

My point though is, whats the problem here? Liverpool made an inquiry, United set a fee thinking they wouldn't match it, they did, United though bugger still don't want to sell him to you.

Whats the problem? One club does not want to sell a very good player to help their most hated rival. The player is under contract and as such United own him so they have the say on who they sell and don't sell him to.

Again forgive me if that all sounds too simple, i'm possibly missing lots of info on the situation but to me it smacks of Liverpool needing to get over themselves. Your rival doesn't want to sell you a player, tuff luck, get over it, move on.

Heinze has a letter stating that he would be sold for a particular price. He claims it is, in effect, a minimum fee release clause and he can sign for any club that offer that price. United claim it is not a minimum fee release clause and further say that they advised Heinze and his agent that he would not be sold to Arsenal, Chelsea or Liverpool.

zing

iregk wrote:

Again forgive me if that all sounds too simple, i'm possibly missing lots of info on the situation but to me it smacks of Liverpool needing to get over themselves. Your rival doesn't want to sell you a player, tuff luck, get over it, move on.

Liverpool made an offer and it was rejected. However Heinze still wants out of his contract and believes he should be allowed to move to Liverpool. Liverpool's involvement now is basically sitting back and watching what the PL decided in relation to Heinze's contract, that mysterious letter from Gill and whatever other 'evidence' which may be presented. There's nothing to get over - both parties (Utd & Heinze that is) believe they have strong cases or this wouldn't be going as far as it is. Liverpool also believe Heinze has a strong case which is why they're happy to see how it pans out before they move on.

Mikeyt086

Tauren wrote:

even if it is all about a first team spot - all that says to me is he doesn't have the balls to fight for a place in the team. the jerk.

Exactly, he doesnt have the hunger Evra has for football, and if he would rather move team than stick it out then let him go. Fact is he was awful last season and he lost his place, then he is too lazy to get it back.

Liverpool can have him for all i care. How is he supposed to pull on that United shirt and play for the fans ever again? He cant, Ferguson saying he has a future at the club was just for the press, the boy is gone no matter what.

Mr Alan

He doesn't have the hunger Evra has for football because he wants to move to a different team? You'd wanna get a grip mate. Slate him for wanting to move to a rival, not for wanting to move club. Most players of his age would be the exact same.

Heinze is mad about football, remember reading something a while ago, before all the Liverpool talk began, where it mentioned the fact that he played for like 3 years without a proper summer break due to Olympics, World Cup and Copa America, when asked did he not need a break, he just said that he loved football and there was plenty of time for a break when his career was over (Maybe one of the mancs who use the forum can clear up exactly wat i mean, they'd have a better idea than me).

You think if Utd had signed Gareth Bale, or an established LB, Evra wouldn't want out? Players want to play, main thing.

Mitch Connor

So why hasn't Evra thrown his toys out of the pram? Heinze started most of the important games last aseason when he was fit - including the FA Cup final. Did Evra demand a transfer because he wasn't first choice? No, cause he knows if you want to play for a succesful club you have to compete for your place int he team, and seemingly unlike Heinze he LOVES the fact he plays for United - first thing he asked Neville was where is the nearest church, so he could go thank God for the wonderful oppertunity of playing for Man United.

PHB

Seems to me like he is moving because of his hunger to play football.

Mitch Connor

PHB wrote:

Seems to me like he is moving because of his hunger to play football.

Why not use that hunger to actually fight for his place in the team, the place he had over Evra in the big games last season.

PHB

Cause Heinze wants to play as a CB, but can't get that spot at United. Furthermore he knows he is weak going forward, and can't compete with Evra in that regard. Maybe he doesn't think he is better than Evra? Maybe he hasn't deluded himself and knows it's time to move on?