Am I missing something in the whole Heinze transfer saga....

Mitch Connor

Bateman wrote:

Surely he'll leave at this stage, bridges look well and truly burned. I have to say I'd have a little chuckle if he left and Evra got injured.

because Heinze is a **** Evra deserves to get injured?

Pepe LeFrits

Tauren wrote:

because Heinze is a **** Evra deserves to get injured?

Yeah, because that's what he said, isn't it?

Geez.

GuanYin

Tauren, cop on.

Lets keep the talk about soccer and leave the naming, name calling and trolling out of this.

Mitch Connor

Pepe LeFrits wrote:

Yeah, because that's what he said, isn't it?

Geez.

Pretty much yeah - United have not forced Heinze out, United have not created the problems, Heinze has. Heinze is the reason Heinze has no future at the club. So why should United or Evra deserve the misfortune of injury just because Heinze is a ****

Hobart

psi wrote:

..
Lets keep the talk about soccer and leave the naming, name calling and trolling out of this.

Cheers psi.

Pepe LeFrits

Tauren wrote:

Pretty much yeah

No, it really isn't. Talk about looking for a flamewar.

~Rebel~

Tauren wrote:

Pretty much yeah - United have not forced Heinze out, United have not created the problems, Heinze has. Heinze is the reason Heinze has no future at the club. So why should United or Evra deserve the misfortune of injury just because Heinze is a ****

I think he was just pointing out the potential humour in a situation whereby Heinze would have ended up as first choice LB again, if he hadn't burned his bridges so totally.

At this stage there really is nothing he can do but leave. Glad this situation is over anyway. I was happy with it in the beginning stages, thinking that the end to this very old taboo of a player (not even main, but bit part) not moving between the 2 clubs might go a small way towards taking a little bit of the mroe serious vitriol out of the hatred between the 2 clubs. He would have been the perfect man too as he was liked and respected at United, but also surplus to requirements, and if so much fuss hadn't been made, and a nice simple deal done in a straightforward way he could have been applauded when back visiting Old Trafford.

Once it got to the stages of actually increasing the bitterness, i just stopped caring. All i've wanted since this careened into madness was decent cover for CB, whoever that may be.

standbyme

So can anyone tell me, as i must have missed it on the news or something, the decision was yesterday to find out where he was going to end up, but heard diddly squat :rolleyes:

Did he go to Liverpool

Cheers.

~Rebel~

still at Man U, apparantly going to appeal to move though (if appeal is successful will be able to move outside of the transfer window). Theres a bit on it over on the Liverpool thread anyway.

dubmick

Rafa Benitez blasts Premier League

Aug 22 2007 EXCLUSIVE by Chris Bascombe, Liverpool Echo
RAFA BENITEZ today accused the Premier League of unfair treatment which threatens to wreck any chance of a Liverpool title challenge.
A furious Reds boss says it’s clear decisions are being taken which favour the Reds’ rivals, with yesterday’s dismissal of Gabriel Heinze’s bid to join Liverpool the latest setback.
In a blistering attack, Benitez said today: “I would like to ask the Premier League a number of questions. How can a player with a signed agreement be treated like this?
“He has a document which is clear, but the Premier League prefers to believe the word of someone else who made a mistake. I know there were accusations made against Liverpool in the hearing which were unbelievable. How can this be allowed?
“Then I would like to ask the Premier League why is it that Liverpool always plays the most fixtures, away from home in an early kick-off, following an international break? We had more than the top clubs last season and we have four already to prepare for this season.
“Then I want to ask the Premier League why it was so so difficult for Liverpool to sign Javier Mascherano, when we had to wait a long time for the paperwork, but it was so easy for Carlos Tevez to join Manchester United?
“It’s going to be very difficult for us to win the Premier League because the other teams are so strong, but I want our supporters to know that despite the disadvantages we have, we will fight all the way.
“We will fight to cope with our more difficult kick-off times and all the other decisions which are going against us.”
Benitez is pondering his contingency plan on Heinze, while recognising the courage the player has shown in a bid to join Liverpool. Heinze is ready to risk being stuck in limbo for a year to fight on for his move to Liverpool.
His appeal against the decision denying his switch to Anfield won’t be heard until September - after the transfer deadline.
But if the Argentine is successful in a fresh hearing, there is a provision for a deal to proceed outside the transfer window.
Should his appeal fail, however, he’ll be stuck in United’s reserves for the season, until he can buy himself out of the club next summer.
The 29-year-old was distraught following yesterday’s verdict, but his appeal will be heard by a new committee. Yesterday, a two man panel consisting of Premier League Chairman Sir David Richards (ex-Sheffield Wednesday) and legal advisor Peter McCormick (ex-Leeds) rejected the Manchester United defender’s claim he had permission to join any club for £6.8m.
They agreed with the submissions of United chief executive David Gill and manager Sir Alex Ferguson, who argued it was made clear from the outset the agreement referred only to a foreign transfer.
It is being suggested Gill also made the extraordinary claim that Liverpool asked Crystal Palace to sign Heinze on their behalf, before selling him on to the Reds. The fact the exit fee was valued in euros rather than pounds was used as a key argument.
An appeal panel will consist of three, including a PFA representative and a high ranking member of the legal profession.
Heinze remains optimistic an appeal will be accepted and is in no mood to give up on his hopes of moving to Liverpool.
His solicitor, Richard Green, said today: “We are extremely disappointed with the result and we will be appealing.”
There is no means of appeal to the Premier League after the next hearing.
United are now hoping to offload Heinze to another club, and are prepared to accept much less than £6.8m.
They also know Heinze will be in a position to force his move to Liverpool within 12 months.
The difficulty for Liverpool boss Benitez is he’s keen for a defensive reinforcement before the end of this month, and now knows he can’t rely on the Heinze verdict going the player’s way.

from the Liverpool Echo

LostinBlanch

Sounds like it to me.

~Rebel~

this is being discussed on the united forum. I gave my reasons why he's kind of right on that point, which in turn were explained as to why it was so much easier for United by Tauren. Rafa was just on a bit of a rant i'd say. Make no mistake though, it was a lot easier for United then Liverpool. All the disputes with Tevez were between the PL, MSI and West Ham, united just had to sit tight till they sorted it out and united got him immediately, whereas Liverpool had to personally battle directly to get Mascherano.

PHB

What was the battle though? It was because of the 3 club rule. That was the major issue. The MSI loan deal was not a massive issue, and while it took longer than United's, it was only marginal. Rafa is just talking crap in this, but he was on a rant, so that's what happens.

~Rebel~

PHB wrote:

What was the battle though? It was because of the 3 club rule. That was the major issue. The MSI loan deal was not a massive issue, and while it took longer than United's, it was only marginal. Rafa is just talking crap in this, but he was on a rant, so that's what happens.

yup, i mentioned that on the United thread, just couldnt be arsed saying it all again here. Agree it is just a rant, think he just had enough with last saturday, followed by yesterdays decision over Heinze.

The "contract only envisaging a move to europe" "clause" Archimedes was going on about must just be that the price was written in euro's. Which is pretty ridiculous.

PHB

Do you have anything to back up that statement? Seems pretty ludicrous if true.

~Rebel~

PHB wrote:

Do you have anything to back up that statement? Seems pretty ludicrous if true.

The fact the exit fee was valued in euros rather than pounds was used as a key argument.

This is from the above article. Linked again here;http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-fc/liverpool-fc-news/2007/08/22/rafa-benitez-blasts-premier-league-100252-19671289/
Based on the way things transpired it makes sense that its a more dubious link like this as anything more obvious in Heinze's letter stating he had to move outside the country would have stopped the proceedings before they even started.

PHB

I'm sorry, that sounds like utter bull**** to me, utter bs. There is no way the PL could make their decesion based on the fact that the fee was in Euros.
I'd imagine what happened was that United may have pointed it out just to 'strenthen' their case that they were clearly referring to a European transfer.

~Rebel~

PHB wrote:

I'm sorry, that sounds like utter bull**** to me, utter bs. There is no way the PL could make their decesion based on the fact that the fee was in Euros.
I'd imagine what happened was that United may have pointed it out just to 'strenthen' their case that they were clearly referring to a European transfer.

My point was that where Archimedes had been saying the letter unambiguously envisaged that the transfer would be outside the country, it cant be the case. First it couldn't have been the case, as logic dictates if it was so clear none of this hassle and wasted time and resources would have been given to it. It would have been open and shut from the beginning.

I hope to god this isn't a lynchpin of their case, though the fact its mentioned at all means theres not something fully conclusive about whatever wording is used in the letter to make it an international transfer only, meaning its open to interpretation which is where taking an implied meaning like currency could come in.

<Edit> Pity they dont just release the letter - we'd have it all sorted in no time!

PHB

Well first off, there are two things that the PL said,

The first thing, the most important thing, is...

"Furthermore the hearing finds the letter constitutes an 'agreement to agree', and did not create an obligation or binding agreement for the club to transfer the player to any particular club.

"In other words the letter is evidence of an intention to negotiate, both between the parties and with potential buying clubs, and not evidence of any intention to create legal relations."

So everything after this is academic.
All the reports before hand stated that the international thing was tacked on in a voice conversation that was recorded by Gill. The issue was whether this was valid for a multitude of reasons

RE*AC*TOR

Its up to Heinze now - he can either grab the first bus out of Salford (real madrid if reports are true), or go in for the long haul, which by the tone of Rafa's comments above could go to several courts before its finished.

cole9

Real Madrid have agree a fee with Manchester United for Gabriel Heinze, according to reports in Spain.


Marca claims that a fee of around 12 million Euros (just over £8m) has been agreed between the two clubs for the Argentine left-back, who has been prevented from joining Liverpool.


It is thought United are happy to sell him to a club outside of the Premier League and so it could be up to Heinze whether he wants to return to Spain.


The Argentine is apparently planning an appeal against the Premier League ruling which denies him the chance to join Liverpool.


He could be faced with a tough decision - take the exit route to Madrid or pin all his hopes on an appeal that could fail and see him stuck at United.

Mr Alan

love him to sign for Real . . . then for us to do a swap for him and Riise with Real straight away.

That'd really drive ferguson mental

~Rebel~

After all this and with United desperate to sell, how are they managing to get 8million?!

Millersangel, that would be fcking hilarious!

cole9

If he goes I'm sure that UTD will put in a clause in the transfer whereby he can't be sold to one of the top 4 teams in England to protect against future embarassment.

Mr Alan

I'd imagine that there is no way such a clause would be legal

and the fact that story says they are getting 8million for him makes me think its bull****

Lex Luthor

cole9 wrote:

If he goes I'm sure that UTD will put in a clause in the transfer whereby he can't be sold to one of the top 4 teams in England to protect against future embarassment.

Fat chance of Real agreeing to that.

cole9

millersangel wrote:

I'd imagine that there is no way such a clause would be legal

and the fact that story says they are getting 8million for him makes me think its bull****

You could be right about the legality of that but one thing you can be certain of is that UTD will do everything in their power to protect against the humiliation of him being sold to Liverpool

Mr Alan

i honestly think he'll end up at liverpool at some point in the next year, be it in Sep after his appeal, or jan or next summer

leninbenjamin

in all tese shenanigans, i missed something crucial here... can someone explain to me why Rafa, who has one of the best defenses in the prem, would want a defender as dodgy as Heinze?

Mr Alan

get it right at least . . . .

Rafa with THE best defense in the premiership!

Basically i think Rafa just feels that Riise is a weak link defensively, with new attcking options on the left Babel/Leto, he seems to think a more solid defender is needed.

Heinze, watever his faults, is definately more solid than Riise

leninbenjamin

millersangel wrote:

Heinze, watever his faults, is definately more solid than Riise

do you really think so? Heinze has became so rash in his tackles though since his layoff. he seems to get really badly exposed in every appearence he makes, I dont think he'd be any improvement. his judgment is really horrible at times, half the time these days he looks like he's not even a natural defender...

PHB

Considering their incredible weakness after their first two choice CB, and the averageness of Riise, Heinze would have been a fantastic player for them.

leninbenjamin

PHB wrote:

Considering their incredible weakness after their first two choice CB, and the averageness of Riise, Heinze would have been a fantastic player for them.

oh yeah, forgot that he can play CB too...

Mr Alan

PHB, incredible weakness is a little harsh! Hypia is still more than able to do a job, only his legs aint wat they used to be, Arbeloa can also play there

PHB

Hyypia is nowhere near good enough, he can't actually move anymore, great player in his day, but he's just too old now.
It is undoubtably Liverpools weakest squad area.

~Rebel~

PHB wrote:

Hyypia is nowhere near good enough, he can't actually move anymore, great player in his day, but he's just too old now.
It is undoubtably Liverpools weakest squad area.

Its our weakest area by miles, the only position on the pitch where there isn't genuine competition with a decent replacement just waiting in the wings.

Hypia can still do a job if called upon for the odd game, but i wouldnt like to rely on him for a few months if agger or worse, carra, got injured.

el rabitos

PHB wrote:

Hyypia is nowhere near good enough, he can't actually move anymore, great player in his day, but he's just too old now.
It is undoubtably Liverpools weakest squad area.

if he was nowhere near good enough he would have been sold. clearly he is somewhere near good enough because there was plenty of interest in him, benitez wanted him to stay.

The Rooster

PHB wrote:

Well first off, there are two things that the PL said,

The first thing, the most important thing, is...

"Furthermore the hearing finds the letter constitutes an 'agreement to agree', and did not create an obligation or binding agreement for the club to transfer the player to any particular club.

"In other words the letter is evidence of an intention to negotiate, both between the parties and with potential buying clubs, and not evidence of any intention to create legal relations."

So everything after this is academic.
All the reports before hand stated that the international thing was tacked on in a voice conversation that was recorded by Gill. The issue was whether this was valid for a multitude of reasons

In legal terms an "agreement to agree" is generally just as legally enforceable as a final contract. The difference is the former may be subject to certain restrictions or obligations. For example, if you enter into an "agreement to agree" to sell your house, then your house is gone, unless one of the stipulations in the agreement is not met.

Concluding that it was an international only agreement on the basis of a euro fee and on the basis of representations made by Ferguson about transfer poilcy was utterly ridiculous. But as happens so often in the legal world, the winner depends more on representation and argument than facts.

IMO the key to the decision was Ferguson turning up. Liverpool slipped up in that regard. They had assumed that the facts spoke for themselves.

sweetie

millersangel wrote:

i honestly think he'll end up at liverpool at some point in the next year, be it in Sep after his appeal, or jan or next summer

surely the three clubs rule applies (similar to Mascherano)

jobonar

millersangel wrote:

i honestly think he'll end up at liverpool at some point in the next year, be it in Sep after his appeal, or jan or next summer

will there still be an appeal now that he's joind Real? i'm assuming there wouldn't be as its no longer the FA's problem if he's in Spain?

Mitch Connor

sweetie wrote:

surely the three clubs rule applies (similar to Mascherano)

I think the rule refers to playing competitively - so as Heinze has not played for us this season, we are not counted. I think.

Mr Alan

yea Taurens right

is it true his agent tried to sell him to Crystal Palace for the day and then onto us? that would have been comical

Mitch Connor

millersangel wrote:

yea Taurens right

is it true his agent tried to sell him to Crystal Palace for the day and then onto us? that would have been comical

I'd be surprised if any club actually agreed to do something like that - you never know when you might want to buy a player off United, and you could be sure United would never do business with that club again.

Sizzler

Heinze really wanted to join Liverpool by the looks of it

Great tactic...throw the toys out of the pram for a few weeks while his agent smooths out a move to La Liga champtions,the innocence of Rafa

PHB

He was always after a move to Real, but that didn't happen so he turned to Liverpool, but Real came in at the end. I'd wonder whether it was really 8 million though

PHB

The Rooster wrote:

In legal terms an "agreement to agree" is generally just as legally enforceable as a final contract. The difference is the former may be subject to certain restrictions or obligations. For example, if you enter into an "agreement to agree" to sell your house, then your house is gone, unless one of the stipulations in the agreement is not met.

Ok, if you look at the PL's statement, it utterly contradicts you.

"Furthermore the hearing finds the letter constitutes an 'agreement to agree', and did not create an obligation or binding agreement for the club to transfer the player to any particular club.

Nunu

millersangel wrote:

i honestly think he'll end up at liverpool at some point in the next year, be it in Sep after his appeal, or jan or next summer

I'm confused...he's still going to appeal?

...and you think he'll end up at Liverpool in the next few months? He just joined Real Madrid, who are crying out for defenders. He'll walk straight into their first team and stay there.

Mr Alan

not sure wat the story is with his appeal, most of todays papers are still reporting that he is going to appeal, despite the fact that they are also reporting his move to Madrid?!?!?!

Presume, thats just in error though

PHB

I think papers are just behind, might have been printed before the Madrid move happened.

Necronomicon

It would be very odd if he still appealed. Madrid would effectively be signing a player who is still fighting to get to another team.