Dublin Bus fare system

The RTÉ website has an article titled "€1.9m of Dublin Bus refunds go unclaimed." It states the following:

"A no change fare system was introduced by Dublin Bus in 2002 after a number of assaults on bus drivers."

I also heard Newstalk stating this. But I remember the Autofare machines on buses in around 1994/95 (I moved from Dublin in '96 so I know this would have been the case). Ye wha? Did they issue change before 2002 or something? Always thought they didn't.

whiskeyman

http://www.fundraising.co.uk/ireland/news/6033

says 1999 here. I think that'd be about right.

Wasn't it brought in to some 'dodgy' routes first though?

Yeah maybe it was us Ballyer scangers who got it first, haha! Certainly was on the 78A before I moved so I think 1995 would have been right.

Aquavid

Yes, it was certainly the mid to late 1990s, after some particularly nasty assaults by druggies desperate for money.

The only way to prevent them holding drivers (or if they couldn't reach the driver, passengers would do) hostage with dirty needles was to make sure that the driver had no access to the money at all.

Aquavid

A Dub in Glasgo

If only they could introduce something like the London Oyster card for paying

KC61

Aquavid wrote:

Yes, it was certainly the mid to late 1990s, after some particularly nasty assaults by druggies desperate for money.

The only way to prevent them holding drivers (or if they couldn't reach the driver, passengers would do) hostage with dirty needles was to make sure that the driver had no access to the money at all.

Aquavid

The Autofare system was introduced on a phased basis across the network starting with the routes that caused the main problems. It did indeed start in the second half of the 1990s.

Electric

Was in London in May and had an Oyster card. They are just the best things ever! You lodge money onto them and then it costs only £1 for any bus or tube fair no matter where you are going. So handy to use all you do it swipe them against this panel getting on and off the bus and getting onto the tube. It works across the whole transport system in London.

IMO it's excellent and the sooner we get one in this country the better!

Nevyn

Like the luas smart card which was ment to be a cross platform payment solution but cie are dragging thier heels.

http://luassmartcard.luas.ie/all.shtml

Victor

Thaedydal wrote:

Like the luas smart card which was ment to be a cross platform payment solution but cie are dragging thier heels.

http://luassmartcard.luas.ie/all.shtml

No, its the department's problem. Smartcards will increase usage and vehicle demand, while reducing the farebox. The department needs allow revised fares and to stump up the balance, but is refusing to do so.

MarkoP11

Thaedydal wrote:

Like the luas smart card which was ment to be a cross platform payment solution but cie are dragging thier heels.

http://luassmartcard.luas.ie/all.shtml

Back of a Luas smartcard reads

"This card will be replaced by the RPA when the Integrated Ticketing Scheme is Launched"

Victor has it spot on CIE have dug in quite correctly with the who is going to pay for this? Integrated fares by definition will cost less who is picking up the tab?

John R

Thaedydal wrote:

Like the luas smart card which was ment to be a cross platform payment solution but cie are dragging thier heels.

http://luassmartcard.luas.ie/all.shtml

It was NOT meant to be a cross-platform solution. The RPA introduced a LUAS ONLY smart card as a temporary stand-in while the RPA failed spectacularly to implement the integrated smart-card which they have recieved €millions in public money to do.

At the same time the RPA and the DOT have been blocking Dublin Bus from introducing their own temporary smart card for their buses which have been equipped for over a year to accept.

The two CIE companies have had disagreements with the other parties over the issue of revenue split and the real problem that they (particularly DB) could find their operating capital slashed with no means to recoup the shortfall.

The disagreement over revenue has been used as a smokescreen by the DOT and RPA to cover up the complete mess they made of the tendering process to commission and operate the system.

Even without a revenue agreement the system could have been installed and tested, ready to roll out within days of an agreeable revenue arrangement. This has NOT happened, the system is no nearer roll out now than it was two years ago.

Meanwhile DB are again making noises about rolling out their own smart cards for their internal range of tickets.

AlekSmart

Interestingly this very topic is one of the few where the oversight agencies,particularly the Comptroller and Auditor General`s Office have been particularly scathing of.

Two seperate C&AG reports have not held back from detailing and criticising the absolute shambles which the DoT and The RPA made of this programme.

There is also the added and as yet largely unanswered question of where EXACTLY has almost €40 Million of public funds disappeared to.

The central issue is exactly as John R describes and revolves around Bus Atha Cliaths quite obvious need to protect its revenue stream.

In fact Bus Atha Cliath management have a legal duty of care to act in the best interests of the Company`s finances and should not in any way be criticised for this.
Perhaps if the DOT/RPA had shown the same attitude this mess would not have been allowed develop.

Once again the MAIN question for me is...WHO was responsible ?....closely followed by Is he/she still in that position.

Answers ....?????..........

jahalpin

London has an integrated payment system for years in the form of the Travelcard. The London area is divided into 6 zones (special sub-zones in far areas of Metropolitan Line) and the amount you pay is based on which zones you travel in or between with Zone 1 (Central Zone) obviously being the most expensive. You can use the Travelcard on all Underground trains, buses, trams and National Rail trains within the zonal area.

The revenue for the National Rail is paid to the Association of Train Operating Companies and is distributed among the companies according to an agreed formula.

The Oyster Card was launched recently and has replaced many paper tickets, however, the pay-as-you type of ticket does not work on National Rail due to the complexities of the system, so you have to buy at least a 7-day travelcard to use it on these services (I think the main reason that you can't use it on South West Trains is that they have no barriers at Waterloo station as it would be too difficult to install these due to the fact that there are exits to the Underground on every platform as well as the main platform entrances

AlekSmart

Quote [jahalpin]

"The revenue for the National Rail is paid to the Association of Train Operating Companies and is distributed among the companies according to an agreed formula." [End]

Two small words..."Agreed Formula"........We wont be seeing any of that soon so.....!!

Also I think you will find that Hizzonor The Mayuh...Mr Livingston has finally managed to get the National Rail services onside in relation to Oyster.

I understand that Oyster roll-out on the Mainline system within London really is imminent !
I wonder if Mr Livingston is available for hire after his present tenure expires ???

monument

MarkoP11 wrote:

Back of a Luas smartcard reads

"This card will be replaced by the RPA when the Integrated Ticketing Scheme is Launched"

Victor has it spot on CIE have dug in quite correctly with the who is going to pay for this? Integrated fares by definition will cost less who is picking up the tab?

As the Comptroller & Auditor General has highlighted, it looks as if money is going down a black hole on Parkgate Street with no sign of any results... so are Platform 11 still holding to the campaign for paper-based integrated ticketing?

(And can we take it that money the RPA has and are spending is mostly on trying to get the technology planned and little to do with coming up with ways to make friends with CIE?)

MarkoP11

Smart card ticketing is not integrated ticketing per say, smart cards can be integrated but its not that is the hold up in Dublin.

Facts are simple the existing system can do a lot more than what it is being used for. Smart cards are fine for a anyway regular user but imagine you are a tourist who just wants a return from Dublin Airport to somewhere in south Dublin that should be possible. You always need to be able to issue a ticket from a to b.

People are crying out for this kind of integration and it could be done in a matter of weeks, you could have full Luas/Rail ticket integration all it would take is a fairly straightforward software change. Dublin Bus would be more complex but for example most people don't know about the Rail + 747 bus combined ticket, for key destinations like Dublin airport something should be doable.

So for little or no cash you can deliver a dramatic improvement. And yes we did ask the RPA who did agree about the fact integrated tickets and smart card are two distinct things, upgrading the software on the Luas TVM's to issue to Dublin suburban rail stations, eh we have no money for that.

No matter what happens the paper ticket system is still going to be in place when smart cards arrive, it should work.

As has been identified correctly the stalling point is figuring out who pays for the revenue loss as passengers will pay less for journeys requiring a change, until that is answered it won't go anywhere. Dublin Bus have an entire fleet fitted with ITSO compatible equipment, all the new IE ticket barriers are equipped as well and the IE smartcard exists in the wild.

So we got three options
1. Wait for smartcards
2. Tweak the existing system to get the most from it while we wait
3. Do nothing

Option 2 is the best option for the public transport user

Red Alert

I'm amazed that the RPA (a state body) and Dublin Bus (a semi-state) are even allowed disagree on it. Both are state bodies - and there should be no scope for any fighting between these organisations.

The temporary smart cards Dublin Bus were thinking of implementing were not different fare-wise from the current magstripe cards. All they are is that they use a smart card reader instead of mag card validator. And you throw the card away when it's used, just like the current magnetic cards.

Dublin Bus spent a lot of money upgrading it's ticketing system - so every bus does already have the facility to talk to smart cards. This new system does also have the facility to be switched from staged to zonal fares. All that is technically needed is for the fare structures to be programmed for the system. So if agreement was reached (or enforced) then the technical switch should be very fast.

KC61

Red Alert wrote:

I'm amazed that the RPA (a state body) and Dublin Bus (a semi-state) are even allowed disagree on it. Both are state bodies - and there should be no scope for any fighting between these organisations.

Given that there are disagreements within the Department (e.g. Funding section -v- Licensing section re new Dublin Bus vehicles), what hope have we got for the State agencies?

Carawaystick

Red Alert,
the rpa introduced a smart card scheme for Luas and also a second incompatible scheme for Mortons busses.
I think this single fact shows the majority of the blame has to be with the rpa. Not all of it, but an organisation that started from a clean sheet operationally, can charge what they want unlike the CIE companies and still have made a considerable mess of The Integrated Ticketing System.

That said I can't see why DB don't introduce smart cards for annual and perhaps monthly ticket holders. you just get on and wave your wallet near the reader and keep going; no stopping, getting ticket out of wallet, inserting, retrieving, replacing into wallet, moving on down the bus then.
and If IE got their stations all equipped, then they could do the same.
Then we'd have 3 smartcard systems and proof that a smart card is not an integrated ticketing system. Somebody could then maybe design( copy and paste a working system) here.

someone posted about the time of the Euro changeover DB wanted to go to a flat fare or simplified fare system but the politico's stopped that. The same politicians are now saying it's not govt policy to interfere in commercial decisions of transport companies....

AlekSmart

Jeepers Carawaystick...Not alone did the Political Dwarves Stop Bus Atha Cliath`s proposed simplification at Euro Changeover but they then managed to force the Company to offer Two FREE Weekends of Bus Travel to "compensate" customers for the inconvenience. :rolleyes:

All of this political dwarfism was practiced it appears by telephone and nothing was committed to paper.
The conduit was it seems Dr John Lynch,CIE chairman who then sought "Clarification" of Bus Atha Cliath`s proposals before asking the BAC board to reconsider etc etc...

Now the REALLY interesting aspect is that ALL Bus Atha Cliath Cash Fare alterations require prior approval from the Department of Transport so therefore one has to assume the Dept had already considered and approved the changes.

The entire Euro Changeover Fare issue is eerily similar to the present 50 additional New Buses lying idle due to the Government Department which sanctioned their purchase (Only After being FULLY appraised of the proposed new routes for their utilization) then refusing to licence the routes upon which they were to be used.

This Departmental nonsense either indicates incredible levels of Civil Service ineptitude or it is evidence of Senior Civil Servants deliberately acting against the Public Interest.(Which would be a criminal offence,would it not ???)

Bus Atha Cliath is far from being a perfect company BUT a great deal of it`s apparent recalcitrance can be traced directly back to this rather incestious Politico/Administrative turf war now in full swing within the Dept of Transport.

There IS a Minister supposedly in charge of this crowd,but it remains unclear as to just how big and wicked a dog is being wagged by this muscular tail !!!

paulm17781

AlekSmart wrote:

There IS a Minister supposedly in charge of this crowd,but it remains unclear as to just how big and wicked a dog is being wagged by this muscular tail !!!

I think you forget how good he is at hiding behind state agencies and claiming everything is ok and it's not his job to get involved.

icdg

jahalpin wrote:

London has an integrated payment system for years in the form of the Travelcard. The London area is divided into 6 zones (special sub-zones in far areas of Metropolitan Line) and the amount you pay is based on which zones you travel in or between with Zone 1 (Central Zone) obviously being the most expensive. You can use the Travelcard on all Underground trains, buses, trams and National Rail trains within the zonal area.

The revenue for the National Rail is paid to the Association of Train Operating Companies and is distributed among the companies according to an agreed formula.

They kinda had no choice in the matter. The whole thing was set up and agreed while British Rail was still in existance and AFAIK the agreements setting it up were negotiated between LRT and BRB way back when. The TOCs had to take on a chunk of the BR fare structure as part of their franchises. ATOC and the Rail Settlement Plan had already been set up under BR and aspiring TOCs had no choice but to implement it. A good thing, as it means that National Rail is still to an extent a network and not just 25 companies doing their own thing.

Now, why CIE and RPA cannot agree an integrated ticketing system the same way BRB and LRT did is another question entirely!

One aspect of the London system is that there exists a destination within the rail ticketing system called "London". This allows you to buy a ticket that you can transfer via Tube from the terminal your train arrives in to any other NR terminal station (but you can't get off any other station). I'd like to see that come in here, so that you can transfer via Luas/DART/Bus between Connolly, Hueston, Tara Street, and Pearse at a small addition charge.

MarkoP11

icdg wrote:

One aspect of the London system is that there exists a destination within the rail ticketing system called "London". This allows you to buy a ticket that you can transfer via Tube from the terminal your train arrives in to any other NR terminal station (but you can't get off any other station). I'd like to see that come in here, so that you can transfer via Luas/DART/Bus between Connolly, Hueston, Tara Street, and Pearse at a small addition charge.

Trick in London requires the UL logo after London to be valid cross London

If you get a ticket to Dublin City Centre, if you arrive from the Heuston side it is valid on the 90/91/92/Luas thats 1.20/2.40 extra single/return, ticket purchased to Dublin City Centre arriving Connolly side is good for Docklands/Connolly/Tara/Pearse, and a NIR issued Belfast Dublin ticket is good as far as Pearse

It exists and there is a normally a big green notice at stations served from Heuston explaining this and it is available through the online booking system as well

Yoda

Why can't I buy a ticket from Westport to Sandycove? I can buy a ticket from Westport-Heuston with the Luas extension which gets me to Connolly.. but there I have to buy another ticket. Why?

KC61

Yoda wrote:

Why can't I buy a ticket from Westport to Sandycove? I can buy a ticket from Westport-Heuston with the Luas extension which gets me to Connolly.. but there I have to buy another ticket. Why?

You should be perfectly able to buy a ticket from Westport to Sandycove at Westport Station - that sounds like a station clerk not being bothered to look up the station code. There is no reason why he/she cannot issue a ticket.

MarkoP11

KC61 wrote:

You should be perfectly able to buy a ticket from Westport to Sandycove at Westport Station - that sounds like a station clerk not being bothered to look up the station code. There is no reason why he/she cannot issue a ticket.

Thats spot on its a lazy ticket clerk, its 132 in case anyone wants to know.

Any IE booking office and any intercity ticket checker can issue a ticket to any railway station north or south on the spot. All intercity booking offices and ticket checkers are issued with a fares manual, its printed in a booklet like the old format timetable

Nevyn

Thaedydal wrote:

Like the luas smart card which was ment to be a cross platform payment solution but cie are dragging thier heels.

http://luassmartcard.luas.ie/all.shtml

I didn't say it was going to be THAT card but one that would function in a similar way.

FFS.

Yoda

KC61 wrote:

You should be perfectly able to buy a ticket from Westport to Sandycove at Westport Station - that sounds like a station clerk not being bothered to look up the station code. There is no reason why he/she cannot issue a ticket.

She's nice enough, the woman who works there. I get the impression she doesn't know that she can do it. She doesn't have any trouble with the Luas extension.

Yoda

MarkoP11 wrote:

Thats spot on its a lazy ticket clerk, its 132 in case anyone wants to know.

Any IE booking office and any intercity ticket checker can issue a ticket to any railway station north or south on the spot. All intercity booking offices and ticket checkers are issued with a fares manual, its printed in a booklet like the old format timetable

Sandycove is station 132... Can I price this on the CIE website I wonder...

How does one get a copy of the fares manual?

Victor

Yoda wrote:

How does one get a copy of the fares manual?

I presume it is an internal document. Some extracted information is here: http://www.platform11.org/passenger_info/fares_matrix.php

Yoda

So I went to Westport station today, and cheerily asked if I could get a through ticket to Sandycove, station 132. Ohhhh, I didn't want to do that, said the helpful ticket seller. The thing is that the return price to Dublin from Westport is a special price. €42.00 + €2.40 for the Luas extension is €44.40, and if I had a €3.60 DART return it would be €48.00 in all.

But if she were to key in Westport to station 132, the cost would be €69.40. Naturally I did not do that.

Somebody explain this to me.

MarkoP11

But did she issue the Connolly Sandycove ticket for you? Customer charter says that is what should happen, that said that would also breech the bylaws!

I know why it does this, its just way too complex to explain, but the simplest thing is it doesn't consider the journey to be three legs and doesn't understand each leg is on a different fares matrix it should simply add a+b+c less a token discount but instead it gives you d since the matrix for the discounted fare doesn't stretch to a station numbered greater than 100, if you would have asked for Maynooth the result would have been a lot different I'd imagine

The IE website used to go nuts when someone wanted the Luas add on that was fixed, integrated ticketing this isn't and you need to be a maths genius to determine the optimum combination of tickets since it depends on the day of the week and the time

Yoda

No, she didn't. I didn't know I could order a DART ticket in Westport. That would be handy.

As it happened I was tired when I got to Connolly so I took a taxi to Sandycove... that cost me €20 (so my journey really did cost €68 ;-) ... but took a lot less time than the DART would and I had heavy bags.