NTL/Chorus (UPC) Traffic Shaping on Torrents?

MrVestek

Nehaxak wrote: »

Bandwidth throttling is effecting online gaming. Online games from Sony are effected badly, talking about 50% packet loss typical on all their online games apart from Pirates of the Burning Sea and Planetside.
Sony's station launcher that is used for all these games though is also badly effected and cannot pull down updates at the best of times and 80%+ of the time it takes over an hour just to make a decent connection.

Tabula Rasa (brand new online game out) is unplayable on IBB due to whatever the hell IBB are doing, throttling or not, some online games have been destroyed by their changes.

Only way around this is to use a VPN.

World of Warcraft would generally not be effected as the ports they utilise are static and rarely if ever change, only their updates service will be effected as they use BitTorrent for the patch distribution.

I haven't been playing the PS3 in ages so can't comment on how it's online games are effected.

Whatever the reason for blocking BitTorrent traffic by ISP's, whatever way they're doing it, it's also effecting other services like online games and that's what pisses me off the most :mad:

Erh dude this is a thread about NTL, not IBB. If ya wanna complain about IBB connections there are other threads open.

fuse

Achilles wrote: »

I mean let's face it who really cares if it takes an extra 30 minutes or an hour to download something? How is that cutting into anyone's productivity?

Soulseek however as far as I'm aware just makes a direct connection to the host... so I can't see why that could be hogging bandwidth. I could be wrong though.

If I'm paying for a 6mb connection that's what I want. Of course I'm not happy waiting an extra 30 mins for something to download. If they're offering this service to their customers they should be able to offer it all the time. Sound like you're content to let them gradually block off bandwidth consuming sites & applications to allow for faster browsing?

You have to initially connect to soulseek on port 2234 in order to connect to the network. Once connected to that, then you connect to the host I think.

Nehaxak

Achilles wrote: »

Erh dude this is a thread about NTL, not IBB. If ya wanna complain about IBB connections there are other threads open.

I am aware of that, however posts within were referring to matters relating to other services that were or were not being effected by throttling of torrents and thus I was replying on same. I mention IBB to be distinct from NTL as I can hardly comment on NTL as I do not use them (nor ever would). It is a fact that unmanaged or badly managed bandwidth throttling effects other services like online gaming.

To be honest, there is little point in any thread complaining about any broadband provider as there is so little competition in Ireland and such lacklustre regulation and enforcement of laws or any regulations relating to same in this country anyway that all you can ever hope for is a group of other customers agreeing with you or that they also are experiencing same.

May aswell make one big stickied thread containing all complaints in regards throttling of broadband from ISPs in Ireland.

Print out the contents once a months and send it en-masse addressed to EU commissioners.

Jumpy

fuse wrote: »

If I'm paying for a 6mb connection that's what I want. think.

Ah theres the problem. You are not paying for a 6mb connection, you are paying for part of a 6mb connection.
Unless you were talking about Smart advertising as uncontended, then Im sorry, but you wont actually get 6mb. Contended connections are exactly that.

MrVestek

Nehaxak wrote: »

I am aware of that, however posts within were referring to matters relating to other services that were or were not being effected by throttling of torrents and thus I was replying on same. I mention IBB to be distinct from NTL as I can hardly comment on NTL as I do not use them (nor ever would). It is a fact that unmanaged or badly managed bandwidth throttling effects other services like online gaming.

To be honest, there is little point in any thread complaining about any broadband provider as there is so little competition in Ireland and such lacklustre regulation and enforcement of laws or any regulations relating to same in this country anyway that all you can ever hope for is a group of other customers agreeing with you or that they also are experiencing same.

May aswell make one big stickied thread containing all complaints in regards throttling of broadband from ISPs in Ireland.

Print out the contents once a months and send it en-masse addressed to EU commissioners.

That's just it though... what evidence can we gather that they're *actually* throttling bandwidth? Apart from saying that your speeds are slow, is there any actual proof that NTL throttle bandwidth? I'm willing to bet no.

Stark

Jumpy wrote:

Ah theres the problem. You are not paying for a 6mb connection, you are paying for part of a 6mb connection.
Unless you were talking about Smart advertising as uncontended, then Im sorry, but you wont actually get 6mb. Contended connections are exactly that.

With a contention ratio of 20:1, you should still be able to get 300kbit/s at busy times. At the moment, you're talking about a lot less than that with the throttling. It should be your choice to use that 300kbit/s whatever way you see fit.

I remember having this argument with a guy in IBB before who claimed that I was getting crap speeds because of "contention". When I argued with him that I should still be getting 128kbit/s, he went and checked something and came back with "oh you're right, there was something wrong with your connection".

MrVestek

Stark wrote: »

With a contention ratio of 20:1, you should still be able to get 300kbit/s at busy times. At the moment, you're talking about a lot less than that with the throttling. It should be your choice to use that 300kbit/s whatever way you see fit.

I remember having this argument with a guy in IBB before who claimed that I was getting crap speeds because of "contention". When I argued with him that I should still be getting 128kbit/s, he went and checked something and came back with "oh you're right, there was something wrong with your connection".

Heh that's kinda laughable, all they had to do was divide the max throughput by your contention ratio. Simple.

Jumpy

Stark wrote: »

With a contention ratio of 20:1, you should still be able to get 300kbit/s at busy times. At the moment, you're talking about a lot less than that with the throttling. It should be your choice to use that 300kbit/s whatever way you see fit.

I remember having this argument with a guy in IBB before who claimed that I was getting crap speeds because of "contention". When I argued with him that I should still be getting 128kbit/s, he went and checked something and came back with "oh you're right, there was something wrong with your connection".

Were you getting slower speeds than 16kbytes/s? with IBB?

Nehaxak

Achilles wrote: »

That's just it though... what evidence can we gather that they're *actually* throttling bandwidth? Apart from saying that your speeds are slow, is there any actual proof that NTL throttle bandwidth? I'm willing to bet no.

Well if it came to it, I'm sure the freedom of information act could be applied to request a response.

There again, a simple call to the likes of Today FM or NewsTalk for their respective evening drivetime DJ's to ask on behlaf of users would surely glean an official response.

I'll see if I get the time myself to contact both tomorrow and see if they'll take it on.

Stark

Jumpy wrote: »

Were you getting slower speeds than 16kbytes/s? with IBB?

Yes.

MrVestek

Stark wrote: »

Yes.

Yeah that's below contention alright.

Gran Hermano

Achilles wrote: »

That's just it though... what evidence can we gather that they're *actually* throttling bandwidth? Apart from saying that your speeds are slow, is there any actual proof that NTL throttle bandwidth? I'm willing to bet no.

I hope you're not a frequent visitor to the bookies. Already a post in this
thread linking to an interview with UPC/NTL where they admit they have
a traffic management/shaping policy.

I believe in the past NTL advertised a contention ratio of 17:1.

masterK

I can't download any torrents the last few days. Nothing has changed at my end, ports are forwared etc. I get an error saying "cannot connet to tracker" with BitLord. Utorrent just sits there looking like it's working.

Anybody having similar problems?

MrVestek

Gran Hermano wrote: »

I hope you're not a frequent visitor to the bookies. Already a post in this
thread linking to an interview with UPC/NTL where they admit they have
a traffic management/shaping policy.

I believe in the past NTL advertised a contention ratio of 17:1.

Hadn't spotted that mate, I retract my statement.

MagicMarker

I'm getting pissed off with this!! For the last week my D/L speeds haven't gone above 30KB/s. Regardless of how many downloads or seeds.

masterK

My download speeds were 0 all week up to Thursay, yesterday they were perfect, today I can't get over 20kbs.

MrVestek

Again these are all complaints about P2P downloading which as you'll all see is against the Ts&Cs of the contracts you signed up for in the first place. I admit I download stuff too but if my download was going at 20Kbps instead of 200Kbps it just means i'll get it a few hours later...

Surely you guys can set up downloads, go do something productive and forget about them for a while then when you come back they're done. I mean, I'm sure you don't all just sit around watching your downloads crawl along all day... now do you?

If you're all getting full speed on HTTP downloads then I fail to see the problem. If, however HTTP downloading and browsing etc is being affected then yes, I too would be worried. Personally I'm pissed off with NTL for other reasons. It seems that *someone* in our area is such a bandwidth hog at the weekends (presumebly torrents and the like) that our modem can barely grab a bitstream to sync onto half of the time!

Our connection has gone down at an hour or two at a time because of this. Only on the weekend... and only Saturday night or Sunday morning.

*Thats* what pisses me off...

Cabaal

Achilles wrote: »

Again these are all complaints about P2P downloading which as you'll all see is against the Ts&Cs of the contracts you signed up for in the first place...

Achilles, I'm curious where it says this?

Yes the T&C's says you can't download copyright material....a standard clause in any ISP's T&C's, I've no problem with this.

However just because a customer uses P2P doesn't mean they are downloading copyright material, yes it can of course be used to download copyright material but so can usenet, http, ftp, e-mail...you name it...does that mean they are also against the T&C's?

Throttling P2P can affect many legit services such as WoW updates, steam updates as well as other services such as http://www.vuze.com/app which are perfectly legal

MrVestek

Section 4: Prohibited Conduct

As a general principle, you must not use the Services in any way that is unlawful or illegal or in any way that affects the enjoyment of other users of the Services or the internet.

There...

Moriarty

Steam doesn't use a p2p system for distribution as far as I'm aware. Valve haven't become as tight as blizzard just yet.

Cabaal

Achilles wrote: »

Section 4: Prohibited Conduct

As a general principle, you must not use the Services in any way that is unlawful or illegal or in any way that affects the enjoyment of other users of the Services or the internet.

There...

Very vague, in fairness I could max out my connection on ftp or http for days on end and that would affect other people on cable in my area.

If somebody is running P2P days on end then I suppose fair enough, but I don't run P2P apps on my connection but if I started Azureus to download something on a private tracker with plenty of seeds I'd be lucky to be able to upload anything and download at a max of 50k/sec.

As such it means NTL are unfairly affecting my connection as 1hr of downloading something via P2P is hardly a way that "affects the enjoyment of other users of the Services" in my area compared to downloading something for an hour via http which is not throttled.

As the T&C are so vague its possible they could actually class somebody gaming on there connection 24/7 as affecting other peoples services or the internet.

I fully understand the reasons for throttling and using systems such as sandvine which I've mentioned in previous posts, but NTL need to actively inform there customers if they are going to have throttling on people who are not going over the caps that they do inform customers about,

Moriarty wrote: »

Steam doesn't use a p2p system for distribution as far as I'm aware. Valve haven't become as tight as blizzard just yet.

Fair enough, but there is known the less legit uses for P2P services and applications,

Stark

If you're keeping withing the usage limits for your particular connection, I don't see what the problem is. Also, torrenting itself isn't illegal. Torrents can be used to download copyrighted material, but so can http or ftp.

Cabaal

Agreed, if you sign up to a package that has a 10GB or 20GB cap and you go over it and NTL want to throttle the crap out of you or warn you then fair enough they are within their rights of the contract you agreed to, anything else is just vague interpretation

Gran Hermano

UPC/Chello need to invest in the old NTL/Chorus infrastructure.
Increasing the number of subscribers without improving the backbone of
the infrastructure will lead to poor service for both new and existing
customers. Traffic shaping is nothing but a quick-fix for an ISP to cover
up inadequate investment. But I suppose making a quick buck by adding
additional users, to an already oversubscribed cable network, is tempting
from a UPC viewpoint.

Achilles, if all your neighbors downloaded legal ftp/http at the maximum
speed they are paying for and to the download limits they are paying for
your connection would be equally as bad. Blame torrent usage if you like
- but it's just a scape goat for a shoddy network.

Moriarty

UPC are apparently pumping a fair wad of cash into their cable network here. I think I saw mention a while back of a billion euros worth. Any sort of network upgrade on that scale will take time.

From my experience of ntl/upc cable broadband in Dublin 1 I'm happy with them. If and when I download something it invariably levels off at a steady 710-715kb/sec no matter what time of day or night. There's been a handful of nights (3? in the last 6 months) where available bandwidth was degraded.. but I'm not paying a couple of grand a month for a dedicated connection with an SLA either.

NeVeR

does anyone know the setup to get around this? I've tried port 80 that doesn;t work..

MrVestek

Gran Hermano wrote: »

Achilles, if all your neighbors downloaded legal ftp/http at the maximum
speed they are paying for and to the download limits they are paying for
your connection would be equally as bad. Blame torrent usage if you like
- but it's just a scape goat for a shoddy network.

No no I quite understand that. I understand the fact that if my neighbours happened to be maxing out their own connection using legal ftp or http downloads that my own service would be severely reduced. I'm not someone who doesn't understand what a contention ratio actually means...

However, the legality of downloads isn't the issue here it's the fact that alot of people in the area could be adversely affecting downloads for others within the area possibly due to their heavy http, ftp or torrent downloads which to be fair isn't fair to other users in the area. Personally if NTL were to or have already introduced some kindof throttling to level out this usage and provide me with me with a decent service thus adversely affecting my torrent downloads (even to something at bad at 20 or 30KBps) I honestly wouldn't give a ****e as my overall service would improve...

bonzodog2

Confusingly, you (some admin) have merged my thread (about torrents working on one NTL connection and not another, with same laptop), with this torrent throttling one. Not working at all is a different issue than working slow!
But anyway, the official BitTorrent client that I'm now using, now shows a green tick on its status bar (used to be a red something) so for some reason port forwarding is working. Right now I'm on the SciAtlanta/Netgear connection, and no configs have been changed since I last used it.

Kensington

Torrents/P2P not working here at all for me this evening :mad:

NullZer0

I suggested a solution called relakks on boards not so long ago.

No too long after that it stopped working for me.

Can anyone else tell me if they can connect to relakks? - Maybe its just me?
:mad: